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I would be very interested in seeing that..There is an interesting teaching that concludes that the famous 'Last Supper' was not a Seder per se, but a celebratory feast at the end of Y'shua's teachings. After all, He was the firstborn. And it was after sunset and therefore the beginning of erav Pesach. So it was the celebration that concludes Ta'anit B'khorot. I've got it around here somewhere...
There is an interesting teaching that concludes that the famous 'Last Supper' was not a Seder per se, but a celebratory feast at the end of Y'shua's teachings. After all, He was the firstborn. And it was after sunset and therefore the beginning of erav Pesach. So it was the celebration that concludes Ta'anit B'khorot. I've got it around here somewhere...
This thread isn't about who commanded what. This thread is about the meaning and message behind it. There are some interesting parallels that are coming out of this. For example, the year of the Exodus, it was the exact same as the year Yeshua was our Passover. The last Sabbath before this particular year's Passover was the tenth of Nissan. That would put the Passover starting thursday night for both of them. It would make the Lord's appointed time mean more than one time use, but a scheduled time. The fact that according to Hebcal.com Ta'anit B'Khorim [the fast of the first born] would have ended at the last supper which is the name of that particular supper after this particular fast. And here we have been taught by gentiles it was named because that was His last supper. Hmmmm. really... Yeshua never lost an opportunity to use the teachings they had to teach them more clearly.
That is nice.. but right now you are dis'sin' which reflect badly and disrespects what Ruach Adonai has given His people.
Hi Jerushabelle,
I think we might have a little disconnect going on here, so I thought I might try and shed some light.
No. Regardless of Who was the actual Father, by being born into the marriage of Joseph and Mary, under Torah, Y'shua was indeed the firstborn according to Torah and His brothers and sisters were in fact His siblings. This fully applies to all the rights and requirements of familial relationship and inheritance. The same applies today in American jurisprudence concerning any child born in wedlock - no matter the biological father. And no wonder. Much of the basis for the American legal system is based on Torah.
Fast actually, not feast. But to answer your question, the determinations of the Beit Din were considered law derived from scripture. And scripture (Romans 13) clearly teaches us to follow the mandates of ANY government that we are living under that do not directly contradict Torah. Also, it is easy to discern from scripture that Y'shua observed all the laws of Judea that did not directly contradict Torah. But this is not the issue here. The issue is context. We are not living in a theocratic Israel constituted under Torah, so different laws apply. But Gentile and Jew are still obligated under the covenant of Israel, so some of the laws of Torah do apply.
On the other hand, just because something is in Talmud does not make it automatically wrong or invalid or contradictory of Torah. Talmud is in fact a great source of historical information. That said, please be reassured that I too have a healthy skepticism of the traditions of man (like most believers in this forum). There is not a greater threat to the truth of scripture than the traditions of man. But Talmud, when researched as a historical record and confirmed by other historical sources should ALWAYS be considered when evaluating the context of scriptural passages.
Considering that Vis is not the firstborn male in her family, I seriously doubt that she will observing the fast of the firstborn on erav Pesach. On the other hand, I am equally sure that she will understand its significance and be watching for those that do observe it.
Jerushabelle, most of us are simply trying to do what we think is right. Most us us would prefer to err on the side of caution. But whether or not you or I choose to consider this fast valid today in the place and circumstance where we reside, it is VERY relative to how we understand the 'Last Supper'. Because it is clear that the last 2000 years has resulted in wildly inaccurate teachings on this and many other subjects in scripture. Again, context is everything.
Not so Sister Jerushabelle. While scripture seems ambivalent or non-existant on this point, the context of these scripture indicates otherwise. It is well documented that the fast of the firstborn and the subsequent celebration at the conclusion of a teaching cycle was not only celebrated in Judea in the time of the Messiah, but was very popular in its observance. I encourage you to do a little research. I'm sure you will be much more easily persuaded by your own findings than by just my say so. The information is out there. All you have to do is look for it.
I applaud your sentiment in this. Be assured that it is shared by all that worship Yah within this faith group. But please be advised: we believe that to properly understand scripture, it must be understood from within the context of the language, culture and political climate in which it was written. It must also be understood from the perspective of the audience for which it was written. 'Get down on da floor' when sung in the disco era was not a euphemism for falling on your face in worship. But we being familiar with that culture understand the reference. Take away the context and you can make it mean a lot of things...
The context of scripture, just like scripture itself, transacts over 1500 years and changes radically over time. So it is very important to understand what was going on and when, before you come to any conclusions concerning any passage you study.
Interpreting scripture from the perspective of any individuals personal background and culture rather than from the context of scripture, is great folly and quickly leads a student to err in its understanding. Accurate historical context is not the enemy of the Ruach HaKodesh or of scripture (which the Spirit will never contradict).
I hope that this will help you better understand how most us us here view these matters. Please feel free to ask any questions that you like. But I must also ask you to refrain from debating. That is a violation of the rules of this forum for anyone not flying the messianic scroll icon.
If you wish to debate these matters, I suggest you do so in one of the Theological fora set aside for this purpose.
Blessings,
Bless your heart.. You were kind, patient, loving, and tolerant... Jerushabelle... I apologize for not doing the same.Hi Jerushabelle,
I think we might have a little disconnect going on here, so I thought I might try and shed some light.
No. Regardless of Who was the actual Father, by being born into the marriage of Joseph and Mary, under Torah, Y'shua was indeed the firstborn according to Torah and His brothers and sisters were in fact His siblings. This fully applies to all the rights and requirements of familial relationship and inheritance. The same applies today in American jurisprudence concerning any child born in wedlock - no matter the biological father. And no wonder. Much of the basis for the American legal system is based on Torah.
Fast actually, not feast. But to answer your question, the determinations of the Beit Din were considered law derived from scripture. And scripture (Romans 13) clearly teaches us to follow the mandates of ANY government that we are living under that do not directly contradict Torah. Also, it is easy to discern from scripture that Y'shua observed all the laws of Judea that did not directly contradict Torah. But this is not the issue here. The issue is context. We are not living in a theocratic Israel constituted under Torah, so different laws apply. But Gentile and Jew are still obligated under the covenant of Israel, so some of the laws of Torah do apply.
On the other hand, just because something is in Talmud does not make it automatically wrong or invalid or contradictory of Torah. Talmud is in fact a great source of historical information. That said, please be reassured that I too have a healthy skepticism of the traditions of man (like most believers in this forum). There is not a greater threat to the truth of scripture than the traditions of man. But Talmud, when researched as a historical record and confirmed by other historical sources should ALWAYS be considered when evaluating the context of scriptural passages.
Considering that Vis is not the firstborn male in her family, I seriously doubt that she will observing the fast of the firstborn on erav Pesach. On the other hand, I am equally sure that she will understand its significance and be watching for those that do observe it.
Jerushabelle, most of us are simply trying to do what we think is right. Most us us would prefer to err on the side of caution. But whether or not you or I choose to consider this fast valid today in the place and circumstance where we reside, it is VERY relative to how we understand the 'Last Supper'. Because it is clear that the last 2000 years has resulted in wildly inaccurate teachings on this and many other subjects in scripture. Again, context is everything.
Not so Sister Jerushabelle. While scripture seems ambivalent or non-existant on this point, the context of these scripture indicates otherwise. It is well documented that the fast of the firstborn and the subsequent celebration at the conclusion of a teaching cycle was not only celebrated in Judea in the time of the Messiah, but was very popular in its observance. I encourage you to do a little research. I'm sure you will be much more easily persuaded by your own findings than by just my say so. The information is out there. All you have to do is look for it.
I applaud your sentiment in this. Be assured that it is shared by all that worship Yah within this faith group. But please be advised: we believe that to properly understand scripture, it must be understood from within the context of the language, culture and political climate in which it was written. It must also be understood from the perspective of the audience for which it was written. 'Get down on da floor' when sung in the disco era was not a euphemism for falling on your face in worship. But we being familiar with that culture understand the reference. Take away the context and you can make it mean a lot of things...
The context of scripture, just like scripture itself, transacts over 1500 years and changes radically over time. So it is very important to understand what was going on and when, before you come to any conclusions concerning any passage you study.
Interpreting scripture from the perspective of any individuals personal background and culture rather than from the context of scripture, is great folly and quickly leads a student to err in its understanding. Accurate historical context is not the enemy of the Ruach HaKodesh or of scripture (which the Spirit will never contradict).
I hope that this will help you better understand how most us us here view these matters. Please feel free to ask any questions that you like. But I must also ask you to refrain from debating. That is a violation of the rules of this forum for anyone not flying the messianic scroll icon.
If you wish to debate these matters, I suggest you do so in one of the Theological fora set aside for this purpose.
Blessings,
, but "habechorot mit’an’gin b’erev pesach" (“the firstborn indulge on Erev Pesach”(Zimmels, HJ. Ashkenazim and Sephardim). This is presumably a homiletic treatment. An actual emendation is not likely given the context of the passage, nor is an emendation widely accepted halakhically.
It ties in with the Seder being called the last supper. First born Jews who fasted during the day in memory of the day that the first born in Egypt sweated it out, then eating the Passover lamb knowing that they are going to be a part of the saved, is something that while not commanded by God, could easily be observed by Yeshua like the Feast of Dedication.
