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Symbolism of the Seder Disproves Real Presence

Thomas L Cossette

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When Yehsua said drink my blood it was a metaphor to drink his teaching i.e. his life, the dark side of this same metaphor would to be called a Kool-Aid drinker which goes back to the tragedy in Jones Town. Drink my blood simply means drink in my consciousness. Just as to be baptized in water is an outward symbol of being immersed in the water of the word i.e. spirit. If you get baptized without immersing yourself in his teaching you only got wet.
 
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Rachel Rachel

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Nope not every bit of it. Not the blood, G-d never tells us to eat or drink blood. And they did not have to eat all of it, what they didn't eat they were to burn before morning.

And yet, God (Yeshua) did tell us to drink His blood.
It was a hard saying and many were offended.

I guess you don't understand that Man does not live by bread (food) alone, but by every word of G-d. That is life, Yeshua is Life because Yeshua is the word of G-d. You don't take in that life by eating a piece of bread that someone says magically turns into Yeshua's flesh, but by partaking of his Holy Word, that is what brings life, not death like others taught.
I do understand this.
I'm not the one who wants to make it nothing more than a symbolic snack of cracker and juice.
 
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Yahudim

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Hi Rachel,

Help me out here. Your posts confuse me. Are you trying to make it out as cannibalism? Are you saying that there is no room for idiomatic interpretation; that there is no 'middle ground'?
And yet, God (Yeshua) did tell us to drink His blood.
It was a hard saying and many were offended.


I do understand this.
I'm not the one who wants to make it nothing more than a symbolic snack of cracker and juice.
 
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Lulav

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Originally Posted by Lulav
Nope not every bit of it. Not the blood, G-d never tells us to eat or drink blood. And they did not have to eat all of it, what they didn't eat they were to burn before morning.


And yet, God (Yeshua) did tell us to drink His blood.
It was a hard saying and many were offended.

Originally Posted by Lulav I guess you don't understand that Man does not live by bread (food) alone, but by every word of G-d. That is life, Yeshua is Life because Yeshua is the word of G-d. You don't take in that life by eating a piece of bread that someone says magically turns into Yeshua's flesh, but by partaking of his Holy Word, that is what brings life, not death like others taught.


I do understand this.
I'm not the one who wants to make it nothing more than a symbolic snack of cracker and juice.

Excuse me? Are you insinuating that I do? I don't do 'symbolic snacks', that is offensive.

Why would Yeshua tell his disciples that the wine was his blood, which when you drink it it turns back into blood? This wasn't even part of the Torah commandments regarding Passover.

You must have missed my post, it is #9 on this thread. See Below



If you understand it then why insist that actual bread and juice (supposed to be wine) are what he meant?

Also if it was to be symbolic then why would he be confused about the bread, saying "this is my body which is broken for you'? Which is what Paul, who wasn't there, said he said.

"Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
Yet the prophecy in Isaiah says that not one bone was to be broken.

Paul says
The bread which we break , is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

Wouldn't that be symbolizing breaking Yeshua's body?

36 For these things were done , that the scripture should be fulfilled , A bone of him shall not be broken .

20 He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken .

Why in two gospels does he have only one cup and in another gospel two, and in another, none?



My post #9

Yeshua quoted Moses

Deut 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger , and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know ;
that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the L-RD doth man live .
by saying:
It is written , Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
This is 'the word', and in John we read that 'the word became flesh'. This is what we are to eat of him, not a lamb or bread.

Secondly in John Yeshua says something that confuses the Jews who heard it. Remember the Torah teaches not to drink blood and not to eat humankind. This ties into what Moses was saying in Deut. about being fed from heaven.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard , and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is * of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead . 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof *, and not die . 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying , How can this man give us his flesh to eat ? 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead : he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
And the Word was made flesh...............


59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. 60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said , This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth ; the flesh * profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

It is his words that bring life. He was speaking a 'hard saying' because it sounded to them like he wanted them to eat his body and drink his blood as the heathens did to their gods. This they knew was forbidden so they didn't understand.

But what I believe he was saying was that he was the word and the word made flesh to be able for us to hear the word and not be afraid as that day at the mountain. But that word should be in us, that is how we become one with him and one with G-d. He is speaking of everlasting life, matza and wine do not extend you life one day, not one minute.

We are not to eat any blood, of any creature, for that is the life.

Everlasting life comes from 'eating and drinking' of the word of G-d, not eating human flesh, or a lamb, or unleavened bread or wine. it is the word that brings everlasting life, and this is the bread that came down from heaven.
 
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Rachel Rachel

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Hi Rachel,

Help me out here. Your posts confuse me. Are you trying to make it out as cannibalism? Are you saying that there is no room for idiomatic interpretation; that there is no 'middle ground'?
No, I'm certainly not "trying to make it out as cannibalism". I've never been the one to use that term.
And what kind of "middle ground" do you want? It is what it is.
 
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Rachel Rachel

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Excuse me? Are you insinuating that I do? I don't do 'symbolic snacks', that is offensive.

Why would Yeshua tell his disciples that the wine was his blood, which when you drink it it turns back into blood? This wasn't even part of the Torah commandments regarding Passover.

You must have missed my post, it is #9 on this thread. See Below



If you understand it then why insist that actual bread and juice (supposed to be wine) are what he meant?

Also if it was to be symbolic then why would he be confused about the bread, saying "this is my body which is broken for you'? Which is what Paul, who wasn't there, said he said.


Yet the prophecy in Isaiah says that not one bone was to be broken.

Paul says

Wouldn't that be symbolizing breaking Yeshua's body?





Why in two gospels does he have only one cup and in another gospel two, and in another, none?



My post #9

Yeshua quoted Moses
Deut 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger , and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know ;
that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the L-RD doth man live .
by saying:
It is written , Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
This is 'the word', and in John we read that 'the word became flesh'. This is what we are to eat of him, not a lamb or bread.

Secondly in John Yeshua says something that confuses the Jews who heard it. Remember the Torah teaches not to drink blood and not to eat humankind. This ties into what Moses was saying in Deut. about being fed from heaven.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard , and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is * of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead . 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof *, and not die . 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying , How can this man give us his flesh to eat ? 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead : he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
And the Word was made flesh...............
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. 60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said , This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth ; the flesh * profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

It is his words that bring life. He was speaking a 'hard saying' because it sounded to them like he wanted them to eat his body and drink his blood as the heathens did to their gods. This they knew was forbidden so they didn't understand.

But what I believe he was saying was that he was the word and the word made flesh to be able for us to hear the word and not be afraid as that day at the mountain. But that word should be in us, that is how we become one with him and one with G-d. He is speaking of everlasting life, matza and wine do not extend you life one day, not one minute.

We are not to eat any blood, of any creature, for that is the life.

Everlasting life comes from 'eating and drinking' of the word of G-d, not eating human flesh, or a lamb, or unleavened bread or wine. it is the word that brings everlasting life, and this is the bread that came down from heaven.
We could go round and round and round about this forever.
You could quote scripture that you think supports your view and I could quote scripture that I feel supports my view.

I believe what Yeshua meant was much, much deeper than symbolically saying he is "the bread of life."
We are the body of Messiah. We are dead to ourselves and alive in Him.
Yes.......I think its much more than symbolic.

Oh, and btw....why do you think God taught not to drink blood of animals?
Because life is in the blood. And thats exactly why we were told we must drink the blood of Yeshua to have eternal life..
Sorry if that offends some. That was also the case when He originally taught it to the disciples. Many left Him at that time.
 
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Yahudim

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Hey Sis,

Don't get upset. I'm just trying to figure out what you mean since no one actually physically drank the blood of Y'shua. So is that the refreshment that we can expect at the wedding supper of the Lamb? You say it means more than just the symblism that is generally attached to the saying. Can you give us an example of what you mean? I'm just sayin'...

No, I'm certainly not "trying to make it out as cannibalism". I've never been the one to use that term.
And what kind of "middle ground" do you want? It is what it is.
 
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Rachel Rachel

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Hey Sis,

Don't get upset. I'm just trying to figure out what you mean since no one actually physically drank the blood of Y'shua. So is that the refreshment that we can expect at the wedding supper of the Lamb? You say it means more than just the symblism that is generally attached to the saying. Can you give us an example of what you mean? I'm just sayin'...
"Refreshment?"
Now you're being very offensive and mocking.
 
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Yahudim

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Not my intent Rachel, though it was a little tongue in cheek. :D Hoping for a smile; certainly not intended to offend. It was humor, but not intended to be at your expense.

Please understand. I cannot grasp what you mean. If you say it means something more than symbolic body and blood, i.e., crackers and juice, then it must be an actual physical act. If it did not happen while Y'shua was here on earth, then perhaps it is something to come - like the wedding supper... I don't know what else you could mean. Throw me a bone here, ok?

You could easily stop my guessing. Just tell me what you are thinking. My ability to read minds has been seriously degraded as of late.
"Refreshment?"
Now you're being very offensive and mocking.
 
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Rachel Rachel

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Not my intent Rachel, though it was a little tongue in cheek. :D Hoping for a smile; certainly not intended to offend. It was humor, but not intended to be at your expense.

Please understand. I cannot grasp what you mean. If you say it means something more than symbolic body and blood, i.e., crackers and juice, then it must be an actual physical act. If it did not happen while Y'shua was here on earth, then perhaps it is something to come - like the wedding supper... I don't know what else you could mean. Throw me a bone here, ok?

You could easily stop my guessing. Just tell me what you are thinking. My ability to read minds has been seriously degraded as of late.
This is my opinion only, and not based on any denominational doctrine.
When I read Yeshua's words recorded in John 6, I think of all the other scripture regarding blood.

YHVH required blood........real blood....as atonement for sin. Not symbolic anything.
Yeshua shed real blood and took real blood to heaven and applied it to the Mercy Seat.
(Hebrews 9:23-26)
God said the blood of Abel cried out to Him from the ground. (Genesis 4:10)

This is a mystery and too profound for any of us to understand now but I believe it has to do with DNA.

We are the body of Messiah...and again...most see this as just symbolic but I think is some incomprehensible way, it's more than symbolic.


 
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Lulav

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This is my opinion only, and not based on any denominational doctrine.
When I read Yeshua's words recorded in John 6, I think of all the other scripture regarding blood.

YHVH required blood........real blood....as atonement for sin. Not symbolic anything.
Yeshua shed real blood and took real blood to heaven and applied it to the Mercy Seat.
(Hebrews 9:23-26)
God said the blood of Abel cried out to Him from the ground. (Genesis 4:10)

This is a mystery and too profound for any of us to understand now but I believe it has to do with DNA.

We are the body of Messiah...and again...most see this as just symbolic but I think is some incomprehensible way, it's more than symbolic.

If in 'communion' when you eat the bread and the bread you believe becomes the body of Christ (transubstantiation) and we are the body of Messiah, then isn't that like cannibalizing yourself? :scratch:
 
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HannibalFlavius

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At the seder there are 3 Matzot crackers, I think represents the Trinity of God.

The middle one is broken and separated and covered in fine material and buried or hidden till after the Passover.

If Jesus is on the cross saying,'' Why have you abandoned me.''

I think of Jesus being broken away from the father when the sin of the world came.


But bread and wine is also about teaching.
 
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Yahudim

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Thats really interesting. I have a friend that hs studied DNA from a programmer and design perspective. He is also a Messianic believer and has a similar view. Wouldn't mind being the fly on the wall if you tow ever discussed this topic.

BTW, sorry we got off on the wrong foot. My sence of humor is a bit strange. But I mean well.

Blessings,
Phillip
This is my opinion only, and not based on any denominational doctrine.
When I read Yeshua's words recorded in John 6, I think of all the other scripture regarding blood.

YHVH required blood........real blood....as atonement for sin. Not symbolic anything.
Yeshua shed real blood and took real blood to heaven and applied it to the Mercy Seat.
(Hebrews 9:23-26)
God said the blood of Abel cried out to Him from the ground. (Genesis 4:10)

This is a mystery and too profound for any of us to understand now but I believe it has to do with DNA.

We are the body of Messiah...and again...most see this as just symbolic but I think is some incomprehensible way, it's more than symbolic.


 
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Gxg (G²)

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If He says it's His Body, then it is. End of discussion. If the Creator says something, then it is what it is. Any attempt to change the words by interpretation is to do violence to those words. I'd rather protect the words of Jesus than re-interpret them to suit my mere human logic. Let's also not forget that He is our Passover Lamb - and that lamb, according to the Law, must be eaten. On this point alone there words "this is my Body, this is my Blood" should be self evident as being more than a mere symbol.

Let's also not forget that the Greek word for remembrance is anamnesis- which is not remembrance in the sense of remembering a holiday or a birthday or where you put your car keys, but in the sense of a re-participation. Thus, at Pesach (Passover), we re-participate in the Exodus. So, for the disciple of Jesus, we don't merely remember the crucifixion of Jesus but participate in it, completely partaking in our Passover Lamb.

I totally, 100% agree with you on this.
I had a very similar debate on "another forum" and was banned/suspended for not agreeing with the Reform views of Admin.
I personally agree with "real presence" or maybe even what Catholics call "transubstantiation."
Right there with you and Contra on the issue. I remember the situation you noted - the one which was a part of my inviting over to CF when I tried to get addressment of it in another thread ( #59 , #61 /#70 , #72 and #93 ) - and looking back on what others said, I'm still shocked to see how others spoke to you on the matter. Of course, there will always be multiple views others hold to on the issue...as seen in the amount of times the issue has been brought up:

From what I've seen in much of the Messianic world, the concept of Real Presence is something many accept since the view with Real Presence is that Christ is LITERALLY present in a mysterious/symbolic way even though it's not like his Body is physically there - although that is very distinct from transubstantiation. Messianic Jews have spoken on the issue before - as Kesher Journal of Messianic Judaism has often pointed out amongst many others....especially as it concerns the Jewish Roots of behind much of the Eastern Christian Mysticism that the early body of believers supported in seeing Christ present during Communion. Oskar Skarsaune in his book entitled In the Shadow of the Temple: Jewish Influences on Early Christianity did an excellent job tackling the reality of how Jews in the early Church saw Communion - and how it dealt with many of the accusations against them by unbelievers when they assumed all believers were somehow for having parties to drink blood for its own sake and other false views......no different than how many of the Jews responded to the Messiah when taking him the wrong way in His claims (John 6) or missing the point on why His blood shed for us was a part of our Atonement..

The early Jewish church understood the concept of redeemption by blood as being based on what occurred with the Levitical sacrifices when a spotless lamb was presented before the priests, sacrificed and atonement happened with the shedding of blood since life was in the blood....and with Christ, His blood is what justified the believer, according to the early church..

Interestingly enough, the concept of the blood being what saved came across as cannibalism toward outsiders to the world of believers...and they constantly had to defend against it...noting that partaking of it was no different than partaking of the Passover Lamb - except for them, Yeshua was the sacrifice they partook of in remembrance...and in a symbolic way and mysterious dynamic of connecting with him. For good study resources:

The blood was shed for the forgiveness of sins...and when we confess our sins, it cleanses us.
1 John 1:4
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
Revelation 5:10
8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.”
Acts 20:27-29
27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock

Romans 3:24-26
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Romans 5:8-10
8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life.....


Ephesians 1:6-8
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace



Colossians 1:19-21
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[a] your evil behavior.



Hebrews 9:11-13
The Blood of Christ
11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.



Hebrews 9:24-26
24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.



Hebrews 13:11-13
11 The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. 13 Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.



1 Peter 1:16

17 Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.









Many are like those in 1 Cor. 11:17-33 who would eat the bread and drink of the cup without discerning the body of the Lord - similar to those who walked away from the Lord because they did not understand what he was saying - it was too difficult ..and they take offense thinking they're being asked to partake in something the Lord called sin.


But ultimately, Communion has nothing whatsoever to do with cannibalism when it comes to appreciating the issue as the early body of believers did. For it's a mystery beyond our comprehension and we just have to take Yeshua at his word when it comes to our redemption. How one views the nature of sin and being cleansed also makes a difference on the matter (in light of what has often been said when it comes to the Jewish and Messianic perspectives on the original sin ) - but ultimately, I'm just thankful for the Blood of Jesus shed for us.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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OK....I know this will be discarded by many with prejudices (because of the author) but this article makes interesting reading...

I actually think that people get even more confused when they get to John's timeline compared to the synoptics, but I think John may actually be harmonized with the synoptics when one understands that there are two days of preparation in the story- one for Pesach and one for shabbos.

Years ago I reconciled all of this to my satisfaction....but do you think I can remember now? :D
The harmonization aspect does help with understanding many aspects to the issue ( #65 /#70 /#71 ) :)
 
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Thomas L Cossette

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Hey there GXG

Most are confused with the word redemption they mix it up with salvation it is not. i.e. the "Redeemer" buys back the priesthood and the sanctuary from the Covering Cherub and all judgment and administration is given to him. Thus that is why the 24 elders ( the 24 courses of the Levitical priesthood proclaims he is worthy to Judge and open the seals.) In Johns gospel chapter 12 :30 NOTICE HE MUST be LIFTED UP. I will draw all men to myself. That is not speaking of Salvation. verse 31 tells you It is about Judgment that the covering Cherub is driven out of the sanctuary (Reference Ezekiel 28:14-19)

Remember the parable of the net cast into the sea and was drawn in full of every kind the good was put and jars and the bad cast out where there is outer darkness there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. This is the completed of John12:30-31 and Ezekiel 28:14-19 when he was lifted up, making salvation AVALIABLE to those who KEEP his teaching

Salvation comes by obeying the Redeemer his blood bought the Levitical priesthood evidences in Revelation5:10 believing he died for sin does not save any one obeying (practicing what he taught) him makes you his disciple they will find rest and salvation, don't buy into the shortcut. It is Idolatry read about the Nehushtan (ref. 2nd Kings18:4) If you want to truly understand how salvation works read the parable of the man who built his house on the rock verses the man who built his house on the sand.
 
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Rachel Rachel

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Gxg (G²);64337337 said:
Right there with you and Contra on the issue. I remember the situation you noted - the one which was a part of my inviting over to CF when I tried to get addressment of it in another thread ( #59 , #61 /#70 , #72 and #93 ) - and looking back on what others said, I'm still shocked to see how others spoke to you on the matter. Of course, there will always be multiple views others hold to on the issue...as seen in the amount of times the issue has been brought up:

From what I've seen in much of the Messianic world, the concept of Real Presence is something many accept since the view with Real Presence is that Christ is LITERALLY present in a mysterious/symbolic way even though it's not like his Body is physically there - although that is very distinct from transubstantiation. Messianic Jews have spoken on the issue before - as Kesher Journal of Messianic Judaism has often pointed out amongst many others....especially as it concerns the Jewish Roots of behind much of the Eastern Christian Mysticism that the early body of believers supported in seeing Christ present during Communion. Oskar Skarsaune in his book entitled In the Shadow of the Temple: Jewish Influences on Early Christianity did an excellent job tackling the reality of how Jews in the early Church saw Communion - and how it dealt with many of the accusations against them by unbelievers when they assumed all believers were somehow for having parties to drink blood for its own sake and other false views......no different than how many of the Jews responded to the Messiah when taking him the wrong way in His claims (John 6) or missing the point on why His blood shed for us was a part of our Atonement..

The early Jewish church understood the concept of redeemption by blood as being based on what occurred with the Levitical sacrifices when a spotless lamb was presented before the priests, sacrificed and atonement happened with the shedding of blood since life was in the blood....and with Christ, His blood is what justified the believer, according to the early church..

Interestingly enough, the concept of the blood being what saved came across as cannibalism toward outsiders to the world of believers...and they constantly had to defend against it...noting that partaking of it was no different than partaking of the Passover Lamb - except for them, Yeshua was the sacrifice they partook of in remembrance...and in a symbolic way and mysterious dynamic of connecting with him. For good study resources:

The blood was shed for the forgiveness of sins...and when we confess our sins, it cleanses us.
1 John 1:4
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin.
Revelation 5:10
8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign[a] on the earth.”
Acts 20:27-29
27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock

Romans 3:24-26
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[a] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Romans 5:8-10
8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life.....


Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace
Ephesians 1:6-8



Colossians 1:19-21
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[a] your evil behavior.



Hebrews 9:11-13
The Blood of Christ
11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.



Hebrews 9:24-26
24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.



Hebrews 13:11-13
11 The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. 13 Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.



1 Peter 1:16

17 Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.









Many are like those in 1 Cor. 11:17-33 who would eat the bread and drink of the cup without discerning the body of the Lord - similar to those who walked away from the Lord because they did not understand what he was saying - it was too difficult ..and they take offense thinking they're being asked to partake in something the Lord called sin.


But ultimately, Communion has nothing whatsoever to do with cannibalism when it comes to appreciating the issue as the early body of believers did. For it's a mystery beyond our comprehension and we just have to take Yeshua at his word.

Excellent post, Gxg and I totally agree with you.
It is a mystery and we just have to take the Lord at His word.

The subject seems to frighten some people and can bring out the very worst in some. I've been called everything under the sun for expressing my opinion on discerning the body and the blood.
 
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Rachel Rachel

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Thats really interesting. I have a friend that hs studied DNA from a programmer and design perspective. He is also a Messianic believer and has a similar view. Wouldn't mind being the fly on the wall if you tow ever discussed this topic.

BTW, sorry we got off on the wrong foot. My sence of humor is a bit strange. But I mean well.

Blessings,
Phillip
Thank you, talmidim. No problem at all and I'm glad we got it straightened out.
I realize this is a touchy subject. :)

 
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