Symbolism of the Seder Disproves Real Presence

[Lulav]

How very Augustinian of you! Are you on the way to adopting Reformation Protestant sacramental doctrine? Addressing the "Capernaitic error"? Interesting...

Not sure if that is complimentary or not, I would guess, not.

I'm not sure who or what that is, I was just inspired to write that. I guess because I don't believe in magic.

 

[ContraMundum]

Not sure if that is complimentary or not, I would guess, not.

I'm not sure who or what that is, I was just inspired to write that. I guess because I don't believe in magic.

It was a compliment.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I have no idea what you mean exactly, as I think we are both assuming the other guys knows what we're saying. My fault. I'm avoiding detail because of time contraints. The only thing I know is that the Gospels all agree on the days of the crucifixion and resurrection, so whether the Last Supper was a seder or not is the only difference, and there seems to be ways of reconciliation around but none seem overly conclusive. 1stC Judaism is such a puzzle sometimes.

Wouldn't the eating of the Passover mean the sacrifice?

 

[ContraMundum]

Wouldn't the eating of the Passover mean the sacrifice?

Sure.

 

[visionary]

It is one thing to "do this in remembrance" and it is quite another to imagine a magical change happens when you do eat it.

 

[ContraMundum]

It is one thing to "do this in remembrance" and it is quite another to imagine a magical change happens when you do eat it.

It's all about the promise and power in the Word. I don't think anyone (except perhaps those who tried to explain the words of insitution in a philosophical manner- transubstantiation) believes in a change of the "substance" anyway. And that's pretty old-hat now, many people who formerly held it now rejecting it as a feeble attempt to explain the mind and activity of God. But they'll always be those who hold onto the Middle Ages I suppose.

 

[yedida]

OK....I know this will be discarded by many with prejudices (because of the author) but this article makes interesting reading...

I actually think that people get even more confused when they get to John's timeline compared to the synoptics, but I think John may actually be harmonized with the synoptics when one understands that there are two days of preparation in the story- one for Pesach and one for shabbos.

Years ago I reconciled all of this to my satisfaction....but do you think I can remember now?

I read the article and was surprised that it never touched on the time, the 3 days and 3 nights, that Yeshua, Himself spoke of. The fact that He stated the amount of time in the tomb makes it kind of important, don't you think? I'm not one of the ones that require exactly 72 hours to the second, but the timing should be extremely close to what would amount to 3 days and 3 nights between burial and resurrection.

 

[Yahudim]

Y'know, without getting into the same old drama and arguments about the timing, there are other explanations. For instance, if He was breaking the fast of the firstborn, He could simply have been talking about the impending feast in the way an instructor would with His students. Also, 'I have looked forward' could have been spoken as a person that knew He would not be able and was expressing His regret. The whole, 'This is my blood..." thing sounds like short-term prophecy when viewed in hindsight. But what if viewed without that benefit? Some of the neatest revelations I have had, came when I read His words like I was there with them and while asking the question: what if I knew Torah and knew the scriptures and knew the culture, but didn't know what was to happen next.

"For the closest shave, try the all new and improved, Occam's Razor!"

 

[ContraMundum]

I read the article and was surprised that it never touched on the time, the 3 days and 3 nights, that Yeshua, Himself spoke of. The fact that He stated the amount of time in the tomb makes it kind of important, don't you think? I'm not one of the ones that require exactly 72 hours to the second, but the timing should be extremely close to what would amount to 3 days and 3 nights between burial and resurrection.

I think if you line up the synoptics with John they all concur on the timing from the Cross to the Resurrection. Seen a few sources that agree. Not sure anyone is going to find the exact number of minutes of any event in the Bible.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

A no brainer for me. Whatever He says, I take and accept. If He says it's His Body, then it is. End of discussion. If the Creator says something, then it is what it is. Any attempt to change the words by interpretation is to do violence to those words. I'd rather protect the words of Jesus than re-interpret them to suit my mere human logic. Let's also not forget that He is our Passover Lamb - and that lamb, according to the Law, must be eaten. On this point alone there words "this is my Body, this is my Blood" should be self evident as being more than a mere symbol.

Let's also not forget that the Greek word for remembrance is anamnesis- which is not remembrance in the sense of remembering a holiday or a birthday or where you put your car keys, but in the sense of a re-participation. Thus, at Pesach (Passover), we re-participate in the Exodus. So, for the disciple of Jesus, we don't merely remember the crucifixion of Jesus but participate in it, completely partaking in our Passover Lamb.

How very Augustinian of you! Are you on the way to adopting Reformation Protestant sacramental doctrine? Addressing the "Capernaitic error"? Interesting...

I totally, 100% agree with you on this.
I had a very similar debate on "another forum" and was banned/suspended for not agreeing with the Reform views of Admin.
I personally agree with "real presence" or maybe even what Catholics call "transubstantiation."

 

[Rachel Rachel]

In Luke 22 the text says...

1- The day of Unleavened Bread came

2- then Jesus said go make preparations for us to eat the Passover

How can you eat the Passover on the day of Unleavened Bread when the Passover had already passed?

Maybe a better translation would have been "the day of Unleavened Bread approached" or "was at hand."

 

[Rachel Rachel]

Not sure if that is complimentary or not, I would guess, not.

I'm not sure who or what that is, I was just inspired to write that. I guess because I don't believe in magic.

No magic involved. Do you have a problem believing the Holy Spirit deposited a child into a young virgin's womb?
We don't know the "how" of it...we just know it happened.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

It is one thing to "do this in remembrance" and it is quite another to imagine a magical change happens when you do eat it.

Life is in the blood. Period.

 

[Lulav]

I totally, 100% agree with you on this.
I had a very similar debate on "another forum" and was banned/suspended for not agreeing with the Reform views of Admin.
I personally agree with "real presence" or maybe even what Catholics call "transubstantiation."

I don't know of many Messianics that do.

No magic involved. Do you have a problem believing the Holy Spirit deposited a child into a young virgin's womb?
We don't know the "how" of it...we just know it happened.

I was speaking of the turning bread and wine into flesh and blood.

No magic, but timing happened with Isaac's' birth.

 

[Lulav]

Life is in the blood. Period.

Yes, and like in the Torah, when sacrifice occurs the blood is to be poured out into the earth. It is not to be drunk.

If you are not to drink the blood of any animal, how much moreso that of the son of the Living G-d?

 

[Rachel Rachel]

Yes, and like in the Torah, when sacrifice occurs the blood is to be poured out into the earth. It is not to be drunk.

If you are not to drink the blood of any animal, how much moreso that of the son of the Living G-d?

I simply trust in what Yeshua said...."you must drink my blood and eat my flesh." Not "you must symbolically drink my blood and eat my flesh."
Did the Hebrews in Egypt symbolically eat the Seder lamb?
No...they at it all....every bit of it.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

I don't know of many Messianics that do.

I was speaking of the turning bread and wine into flesh and blood.

No magic, but timing happened with Isaac's' birth.

I don't know many Messianics that agree with me either, but it's what I, personally, believe to be true - from my reading of the Word. Not based on any denomination's doctrine.

And I was saying to Visionary that if one considers the "real presence" to be magic, then how can one have faith to believe in the Holy Spirit "fathering" the Messiah?

 

[Lulav]

I simply trust in what Yeshua said...."you must drink my blood and eat my flesh." Not "you must symbolically drink my blood and eat my flesh."
Did the Hebrews in Egypt symbolically eat the Seder lamb?
No...they at it all....every bit of it.

Nope not every bit of it. Not the blood, G-d never tells us to eat or drink blood. And they did not have to eat all of it, what they didn't eat they were to burn before morning.

I guess you don't understand that Man does not live by bread (food) alone, but by every word of G-d. That is life, Yeshua is Life because Yeshua is the word of G-d. You don't take in that life by eating a piece of bread that someone says magically turns into Yeshua's flesh, but by partaking of his Holy Word, that is what brings life, not death like others taught.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

CF hiccup~!

Well, wonder what you were thinking when you got dressed today?

This looks like a wild Lulav I haven't seen before.

Kinda got that hippy look to you, I like it!

Oh, what is that Hiccup about?

 

[Lulav]

Well, wonder what you were thinking when you got dressed today?

This looks like a wild Lulav I haven't seen before.

Kinda got that hippy look to you, I like it!

I only dress up on here, I am a very casual person, but not much hippie, never quite went there in the 70's. Since I work at home I sometimes don't even get outta my pjs! Comfort is everything!