Switching churches

[Fotina]

I don't know her parish... but if it is as she ays it is where the community never really accepts you and everyone is more concerned with worldly success and such then, yes, it is very possible that the Orthodox Church down the road is a more spiritually healthy place to be. The point IS that the sacraments are the same. But spiritual health depends on a lot of aspects: Sacraments, prayer, community in Christ, filling the mind with Holy things, Holy education. That all matters and contributes to holiness.

See my post#57. My point is canonical Orthodox liturgical services and Life-Giving Mysteries are not one bit less able to impart spiritual health regardless of worldliness or friendliness of the community. Otherwise, evangelicals win in friendliness, and Mormons.

 

[Joshua G.]

No one (Orthodox) here is disputing that fact. At least I haven't seen anyone come close to that here.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I actually think the Orthodox Christians at my parish rival the Mormons and evangelicals in friendliness. The Greek parish down the street isn't very inviting or friendly but boy this Serbian parish...wow, what nice and friendly folks!...and they have the sacraments! Can't beat that!

See my post#57. My point is canonical Orthodox liturgical services and Life-Giving Mysteries are not one bit less able to impart spiritual health regardless of worldliness or friendliness of the community. Otherwise, evangelicals win in friendliness, and Mormons.

 

[gracefullamb]

The Life-Giving Mysteries of the Holy Orthodox Church is not diminished or destroyed by human weakness, and sins, personal or corporate. Indeed, it heals them. "Convert-friendly" is not a requirement of Holy Orthodoxy. Orthodox liturgical practice and under a canonical bishop is.

As I said before, one is free to choose a parish for whatever reason, but don't confuse spiritual soundness/health of Holy Orthodoxy with one's preference.

Fotina, with all due respect, your comparison to the to the persecution the Saints have gone through make it seem as if you are trying to state the OP should stay where she is at because it really isn't that bad compared to what the Saints went through. I realize that probably isn't your intent but it does come off that way none the less. She has described in posts after her initial one how terribly the congregation has treated her. They have called her derogatory names because she is not Greek and refuse to call her by her give name. It is incredibly hard to grow spiritually in the faith if straight from the get go all those around you are not helping you, but instead causing offense and scandal and making it clear you are not wanted there, you should leave, when ever you try to participate in your church. No one has said the parish is less Orthodox nor that the Sacraments are invalid, though clearly some of the behavior being described is not how Orthodox should behave.

It really has nothing to do with being convert friendly or a comfortable environment and more to do with being less ethnocentric and racist and yes calling someone names because they are not Greek is racist and ethnocentric. There is no defense whatsoever for that behavior and it should not be tolerated. Those at her current church who disagree with such behavior should be ashamed of themselves they have said and done nothing to stop it!

 

[snowpumpkin]

I don't think any of us are arguing about the sacraments differing from church to church... They are the same everywhere. That is why I am considering another ORTHODOX church and not say, the Alliance church a whole half mile from my house.

I have no doubt about the faithfulness of my priests and some of the parishioners. But when the older women of the church are very closed off and nit picky about their ways, and gossipy (Greeks LOVE to gossip), it's just not a friendly environment. And when the parish counsel is ruled by the same rich, controlling families for the past 30-40 years, it's hard for any good change to take plus. We've lost PRIESTS because of the atmosphere of our parish. Thus, for me, as someone else pointed out, this makes it not a desirable place to be and I struggle with wanting to go to church all the time. If this was the only option, I would of course stay with it.

Here is another example for you. Our Sunday School starts immediately after communion. They don't even wait until the Liturgy is finished. Then it is rushed to get done in the 20-30 minutes left before the Liturgy ends. I don't want my kids rushed through a quick Sunday School every week. The OCA church on the other hand has the Liturgy at 9:30 and Sunday School scheduled for 11:00. Because it is in only English, the Liturgy is usually done by 11:00 so they are not missing any part of the service and Sunday School is not rushed. For me, that is the spiritually healthier option for my children.

As I mentioned before, one of my good friends from church is struggling with her 5 year old son right now. He does not want to go to church at all, let alone Sunday School. He says that no one likes him there. She is also considering the OCA church. Just because the sacraments are the same does not in any way mean that your only option is to stay where you are. I do find being welcomed an important part of my church life.

As to not "complaining" about our situations because of the experiences of the saints, unless you plan to sell all of your belongings and go live in a cave like St. Antony, I'm sorry, you really have no room to talk in that regard. As you are on the internet, I'm sure your life has a lot more comforts than St. Antony's did. We all have our situations in life that require pray, deep thought, exploration and sometimes change. For me and my family, this is one of those times.

 

[Fotina]

Fotina, with all due respect, your comparison to the to the persecution the Saints have gone through make it seem as if you are trying to state the OP should stay where she is at because it really isn't that bad compared to what the Saints went through. I realize that probably isn't your intent but it does come off that way none the less. She has described in posts after her initial one how terribly the congregation has treated her. They have called her derogatory names because she is not Greek and refuse to call her by her give name. It is incredibly hard to grow spiritually in the faith if straight from the get go all those around you are not helping you, but instead causing offense and scandal and making it clear you are not wanted there, you should leave, when ever you try to participate in your church. No one has said the parish is less Orthodox nor that the Sacraments are invalid, though clearly some of the behavior being described is not how Orthodox should behave.

It really has nothing to do with being convert friendly or a comfortable environment and more to do with being less ethnocentric and racist and yes calling someone names because they are not Greek is racist and ethnocentric. There is no defense whatsoever for that behavior and it should not be tolerated. Those at her current church who disagree with such behavior should be ashamed of themselves they have said and done nothing to stop it!

I'm sorry for the op's situation. No, I'm not saying the op should stay. I don't know, and I don't know the extent of her suffering. I do offer my prayers. Lord, have mercy.

But, we can seek the prayers of the saints, take heart in our circumstances, and be encouraged by their example, in how they endured all manner of slander, ridicule, and worse, yet remained steadfast and grew in holiness and faith, like Saint Nectarios for one.

Also, the Life-Giving Fullness of the Holy Orthodox Church is still totally present in a canonical Orthodox parish and will not increase/decrease in a different parish though it may have greater personal appeal.

As for the rest, God will judge.

A blessed remainder of Great Lent to all.

 

[Dorothea]

I don't think any of us are arguing about the sacraments differing from church to church... They are the same everywhere. That is why I am considering another ORTHODOX church and not say, the Alliance church a whole half mile from my house.

I have no doubt about the faithfulness of my priests and some of the parishioners. But when the older women of the church are very closed off and nit picky about their ways, and gossipy (Greeks LOVE to gossip), it's just not a friendly environment. And when the parish counsel is ruled by the same rich, controlling families for the past 30-40 years, it's hard for any good change to take plus. We've lost PRIESTS because of the atmosphere of our parish. Thus, for me, as someone else pointed out, this makes it not a desirable place to be and I struggle with wanting to go to church all the time. If this was the only option, I would of course stay with it.

Here is another example for you. Our Sunday School starts immediately after communion. They don't even wait until the Liturgy is finished. Then it is rushed to get done in the 20-30 minutes left before the Liturgy ends. I don't want my kids rushed through a quick Sunday School every week. The OCA church on the other hand has the Liturgy at 9:30 and Sunday School scheduled for 11:00. Because it is in only English, the Liturgy is usually done by 11:00 so they are not missing any part of the service and Sunday School is not rushed. For me, that is the spiritually healthier option for my children.

As I mentioned before, one of my good friends from church is struggling with her 5 year old son right now. He does not want to go to church at all, let alone Sunday School. He says that no one likes him there. She is also considering the OCA church. Just because the sacraments are the same does not in any way mean that your only option is to stay where you are. I do find being welcomed an important part of my church life.

As to not "complaining" about our situations because of the experiences of the saints, unless you plan to sell all of your belongings and go live in a cave like St. Antony, I'm sorry, you really have no room to talk in that regard. As you are on the internet, I'm sure your life has a lot more comforts than St. Antony's did. We all have our situations in life that require pray, deep thought, exploration and sometimes change. For me and my family, this is one of those times.

There are definitely some parishes out there....and the larger ones tend to have more cliques than the smaller ones in my experience. There was one GOC in OH where we didn't feel too welcome the first few times we visited, but it was better over the next several visits, but we didn't attend regularly at that time, TBH. I prefer small parishes where one can really feel a part of the family. I got that with the parish in Mary Esther, FL (near Ft. Walton Beach - a GOC), and I get that here in Colorado Springs at the GOC here. Apparently, this is not just a Greek thing because this happens with some ethnic Arab Churches as well - Antiochian - in the NE, according to a priest who resides in NY. He says the closed, unfriendliness and ethnic stuff is hardcore up there. Ugh

As for the OCA....I didn't realize they had such a dislike for us Greeks until I was told this (I'm guessing not all the folks in the OCA parish feel this way though). Not all parishes, but apparently our nearest one, unfortunately. We get along splendidly with our other sister parish OCA that is northeast of CO Spgs.

 

[Fotina]

As to not "complaining" about our situations because of the experiences of the saints, unless you plan to sell all of your belongings and go live in a cave like St. Antony, I'm sorry, you really have no room to talk in that regard. As you are on the internet, I'm sure your life has a lot more comforts than St. Antony's did. We all have our situations in life that require pray, deep thought, exploration and sometimes change. For me and my family, this is one of those times.

This is my own general opinion and not specific to op whose circumstances I don't know.

I do offer my prayers. Lord, have mercy.

.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Yes, there have been some disagreements or "history" between some parishes or jurisdictions, and hesitancy to be open/welcoming to "outsiders". It is a shame when ethnic/cultural barriers take center stage. This doesn't meant that all such parishes/parishoners act this way towards each other though. It is an unfortunate to see, as we as brothers/sisters in the faith we should overlook these little differences or issues that we've had in the past and share our common love for Christ.

I think setting a good example by treating all our brothers/sisters with love and charity is the best we can do as parishoners, whether they be Greek, Russian, Arab, Ukranian or others.

 

[Dorothea]

Yes, there have been some disagreements or "history" between some parishes or jurisdictions, and hesitancy to be open/welcoming to "outsiders". It is a shame when ethnic/cultural barriers take center stage. This doesn't meant that all such parishes/parishoners act this way towards each other though. It is an unfortunate to see, as we as brothers/sisters in the faith we should overlook these little differences or issues that we've had in the past and share our common love for Christ.

I think setting a good example by treating all our brothers/sisters with love and charity is the best we can do as parishoners, whether they be Greek, Russian, Arab, Ukranian or others.

I agree, Ortho.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think setting a good example by treating all our brothers/sisters with love and charity is the best we can do as parishoners, whether they be Greek, Russian, Arab, Ukranian or others.

indeed good sir, indeed.

 

[E.C.]

OOO!! Was the GOC Holy Trinity?!! That was the church we attended when we lived in Spokane. Fr. Stephen is wonderful, and yes, it was quite mixed, and not many Greeks. Lovely parish.

Yep
Whatever negative opinion I had of Greek churches beforehand was pretty much made null and void after that.

There are definitely some parishes out there....and the larger ones tend to have more cliques than the smaller ones in my experience. There was one GOC in OH where we didn't feel too welcome the first few times we visited, but it was better over the next several visits, but we didn't attend regularly at that time, TBH.

A friend of mine at one of the Seattle churches told me why larger parishes are like that: because they get so many visitors for the one Sunday, what's the point of getting to know people who aren't there regularly?

Yes, there have been some disagreements or "history" between some parishes or jurisdictions, and hesitancy to be open/welcoming to "outsiders". It is a shame when ethnic/cultural barriers take center stage. This doesn't meant that all such parishes/parishoners act this way towards each other though. It is an unfortunate to see, as we as brothers/sisters in the faith we should overlook these little differences or issues that we've had in the past and share our common love for Christ.

I think setting a good example by treating all our brothers/sisters with love and charity is the best we can do as parishoners, whether they be Greek, Russian, Arab, Ukranian or others.

Here here.


Now getting back to this topic: sure, the saints and martyrs throughout the ages have had it worse than anyone of us can imagine, but they were living under active persecution. We are not (yet). So, for whomever it was that basically said "deal with it" I just have this to say: there are parishes that are cesspools of negative people. Those parishes do not help people who are not a part of that clique. The question here is not the validity of sacraments, but the question is basically one of good reasons to find a new spiritual home. If the nearby parish does not help one to grow because the people, who regardless of attitude are the Body of Christ, are jerks to those outside the clique than that is a good reason to go down the road; assuming of course that the other parish is no worse.

 

[katherine2001]

In summary we need to resolve jurisdictional chaos and have a true United States Orthodox Church so we can have cheeseburgers and onion rings at coffee hour.

Pickled WATERMELON???? Really?!

A Southern delicacy is pickled watermelon rinds. My grandmother made those a lot. Pickled peaches is another.

 

[Dorothea]

Yep
Whatever negative opinion I had of Greek churches beforehand was pretty much made null and void after that.

A friend of mine at one of the Seattle churches told me why larger parishes are like that: because they get so many visitors for the one Sunday, what's the point of getting to know people who aren't there regularly?

Ah, that does make sense.

 

[gorion]

If a parish that is free of cliques and judgmental people is what you are looking for you are on a fools errand.

However as a side note the Greek church in tacoma wa is one of the most friendly places I've ever attended and they hae pews lol. It cracks me up to read people thinking they are more orthodox than others because of pews.

 

[E.C.]

If a parish that is free of cliques and judgmental people is what you are looking for you are on a fools errand.

However as a side note the Greek church in tacoma wa is one of the most friendly places I've ever attended and they hae pews lol. It cracks me up to read people thinking they are more orthodox than others because of pews.

Ever since Fr. Seraphim arrived that parish has taken a real 180 compared to how it used to be.

Like St. Ambrose of Milan famously said, "When in Rome do as the Romans do".

 

[thefirstjustin]

Which is awful, because with the exception of one parish (out of the 12 in my state, and umpteen more that I've visited) I've NEVER found that to be the case and I've been Orthodox for five years.

I'm in the Greek Archdiocese of Australia and happily so. I hate the reputation Greeks have because I think it's largely unfair.

Every dealing I've had with the Greeks has been very favorable. Just this past weekend, I was at a Greek Orthodox retreat center owned by the Metroplia of Atlanta doing a service project, and every time I have been there I have had cradle Greek Orthodox tell me they love converts (of which I am one). From what I've seen, the younger Greeks don't have a snobby attitude.

 

[Kristos]

If a parish that is free of cliques and judgmental people is what you are looking for you are on a fools errand.

However as a side note the Greek church in tacoma wa is one of the most friendly places I've ever attended and they hae pews lol. It cracks me up to read people thinking they are more orthodox than others because of pews.

Tacoma? I used to live up in Poulsbo years ago, on the hood canal side.