Switching churches

[Ortho_Cat]

Replace "Greek" with "Irish Catholic" and you pretty much have a great deal on why I left the Roman Church. You will also have a great deal on why the GOARCH, like the Roman Church, is experiencing a shortage of priests.

One of our priests was with the GOARCH for eleven years and told me exactly why there is a shortage of priests in that jurisdiction: placing ethnicity before God and no encouragement to delve into the spiritual life. The only encouragement that the youth had, at least in his experience, was to become doctors, lawyers, bankers, find good Greek spouse and raise good Greek kids. When parents spend their lives telling their kids such things than it is no surprise why the great majority of them later complain and are baffled as to why their kids and grandkids do not go to church.

what could be a possible explanation for such a phenomenon?

 

[Joshua G.]

Thanks for the input everyone. I'm sure not all Greek parishes are like mine. I actually think mine is on the extreme end of the anti-social spectrum. We've lost several wonderful, wonderful priests who couldn't take it anymore and left for calmer waters at other parishes. GREEK priests who couldn't take our GREEK parish anymore!

Our assistant priest, who isn't Greek himself, has told us to go wherever we feel comfortable. I just wondered what the official process entails.

I also struggle with the decision because of my kids. I feel like I am depriving them of part of their Greek heritage by removing them from the Greek church. But then I tell myself that God is above all of these ethnic differences and they need to be in a safe, friendly environment where they can focus on God, and not in a Greek place that will potentially ostracize them and make them not want to attend church. One of my half-Greek friends from church is going through this with her 5 year old right now.

The official stuff doesn't really matter. I don't even know what I am officially. I was married in a Patriarchal Parish but chrismated OCA and I never made any official change. I consider myself Patriarchal but I guess I am officially on the books at both Churches (under the Patriarch only because I was married there).

However, when you have a chance, it would be a good idea to get a certificate of your chrismations and those of your children if you have any (I don't remmeber if you have any). If you did have any children baptized there, that will be good for them to have later in life when they want to get married. My priest took my word for it because he knew me for some time before that and the priest who chrismated me, but I met a woman who was going to marry in texas where she didn't know the priest and she had a hard time tracking down proof of her baptism.

Hope that helps!

Josh

 

[Ortho_Cat]

hmm patriarchal parish...which jurisdictions are "patriarchal"?

 

[truefiction1]

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:18)

From this, it seems that St. Paul may have had to contend with these same problems even in the early Church. How much the more so should we see such behavior in these latter days: when true faith in and love for Christ have diminished to a point of near extinction, leaving our members completely reliant upon their individual sense of heroism within the cultural fictions provided them through involvement in their ethnic church and secular communities as their only source of self-meaning and purpose. How very sad that this is the case.

Lord have mercy upon us and forgive us.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

hmm patriarchal parish...which jurisdictions are "patriarchal"?

We have a patriarch! Maybe he was with the Serbians?!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

We have a great patriarch and an amazing bishop. Both blessings from God indeed.

We have a patriarch! Maybe he was with the Serbians?!

 

[choirfiend]

The Patriarchal churches are under Moscow. Theres like a dozen of them in the US.

 

[Joshua G.]

No... there are a whole 30!

 

[Joshua G.]

hmm patriarchal parish...which jurisdictions are "patriarchal"?

As Choirfiend said, it refers to those under Moscow. Whenever someone says (at least in North America) "My parish is patriarchal" it is shorthand for Moscow (even if it unfairly monopolizes an adjective that should belong to others lol). It would seem this developped to distinguish itself from the OCA (that was started when the Patriarch of Moscow granted it autocephaly) and from the ROCOR (which has the same origins but left the Patriarch during communism.

 

[Knee V]

There is a lot of cross-jurisdictional stuff in my area (around DFW). I know plenty of people who, for one reason or another, have gone to some different parishes in the area of different jurisdictions. Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy. My own priest doesn't like to consider the jurisdictional differences and thinks of all the different parishes in the area as just individual Orthodox parishes. If you need to switch parishes, there is nothing you have to do (except maybe let your priest know), as they are all Orthodox parishes.

 

[Joshua G.]

I think that is a very healthy attitude to have as a priest. We have people at our Church and I have no idea what their official jurisdiction is because they are often at our Church and other times at the Greek Church and they go very faithfully.

I do think it is healthy for most to have a parish and even jurisdiction they call home because bishops should be prayed for daily by their people. But being on an official role doesn't make one part of that parish or jurisdiction as much as their prayerlife and integration and practice does. The paperwork is a far a second.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Well as AOCA, aren't we informally under the patriarchate of Antioch? We have pictures of Patriarch Ignatius around the cathedral...

 

[Joshua G.]

Yeah, we just lucked out and monopolized the name. Kind of like Catholics are called Catholics even though we too consider ourselves catholic

 

[E.C.]

what could be a possible explanation for such a phenomenon?

Greed, culture and not feeding that spiritual hunger.

I remember one time my priest explained that back in the day the priesthood was considered the occupation of last resort when one's attempts with all others failed. If one became a priest than it is because one couldn't make it as a banker, doctor, politician, ditch-digger or anything in between. That was how things were in the days of pre-Communist Europe and Greece at the same time period.
Now in Ireland, according to my Irish Catholic priest from those days, if there were multiple boys in the family at least one of them went on to become either a priest or a monk. Sometimes you would have a family of all priests!

Regardless of culture or Church there is also an element of greed. The mentality being, "I'm old, my wife has died or is dieing, grandchildren are in the college years, I can't take care of myself so who will take care of me?" Priests for the most part do not get paid pretty pennies especially in countries where their salary comes from the state. But, if one's kid(s) became doctors, lawyers or bankers with six figure plus incomes than hopefully one of them will take care of you by paying your retirement home rent because in 21st century America we just don't take care of our elderly like we did fifty plus years ago. We throw them in a home and wait until they die.

Most of the converts on this board became Orthodox because we were spiritually hungry and our previous religious background just didn't quench that thirst. People who are raised in any religious community have just as much spiritual hunger as those who convert; Orthodoxy is no exception to that. If one's parents are spending years of encouraging one to get a "well-paying, successful" job than when does one have time to feed that hunger? "I can't read 'Way of the Pilgrim' because my mom will kick me out of the house if I don't study this book to become a doctor". I heard that from one poor soul and have not forgotten it since.

 

[snowpumpkin]

Replace "Greek" with "Irish Catholic" and you pretty much have a great deal on why I left the Roman Church. You will also have a great deal on why the GOARCH, like the Roman Church, is experiencing a shortage of priests.

One of our priests was with the GOARCH for eleven years and told me exactly why there is a shortage of priests in that jurisdiction: placing ethnicity before God and no encouragement to delve into the spiritual life. The only encouragement that the youth had, at least in his experience, was to become doctors, lawyers, bankers, find good Greek spouse and raise good Greek kids. When parents spend their lives telling their kids such things than it is no surprise why the great majority of them later complain and are baffled as to why their kids and grandkids do not go to church.

Oh yes, this is huge! This is the exact attitude of Greek parents. I know it is a cultural thing. Most Greeks in America are recent immigrants or children of recent immigrants and I know those parents grew up with very, very little and moved here for a better life. So they push and push their kids to get big, successful, money making jobs.

Another part of the issue is that for Greeks, their culture and religion are practically the same thing. They are Orthodox because that's what Greek people are. A lot of them live on the surface of their faith and don't delve much deeper.

sounds like fun!

Is the liturgy done in english?

It's English and Greek (which can make for some looong liturgies when they repeat things in both languages). Our current priest does a lot more in Greek which is great for the older people but frustrates me.

The official stuff doesn't really matter. I don't even know what I am officially. I was married in a Patriarchal Parish but chrismated OCA and I never made any official change. I consider myself Patriarchal but I guess I am officially on the books at both Churches (under the Patriarch only because I was married there).

However, when you have a chance, it would be a good idea to get a certificate of your chrismations and those of your children if you have any (I don't remmeber if you have any). If you did have any children baptized there, that will be good for them to have later in life when they want to get married. My priest took my word for it because he knew me for some time before that and the priest who chrismated me, but I met a woman who was going to marry in texas where she didn't know the priest and she had a hard time tracking down proof of her baptism.

Hope that helps!

Josh

Thanks, Josh. We do all have our certificates except for my husband. Our church does have his baptism documented though.

There is a lot of cross-jurisdictional stuff in my area (around DFW). I know plenty of people who, for one reason or another, have gone to some different parishes in the area of different jurisdictions. Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy. My own priest doesn't like to consider the jurisdictional differences and thinks of all the different parishes in the area as just individual Orthodox parishes. If you need to switch parishes, there is nothing you have to do (except maybe let your priest know), as they are all Orthodox parishes.

What a fantastic attitude! One of the women in our women's group laughs about how when she was little, she didn't even know there were other Orthodox churches. She thought all Orthodox people were Greek!

Greed, culture and not feeding that spiritual hunger.

I remember one time my priest explained that back in the day the priesthood was considered the occupation of last resort when one's attempts with all others failed. If one became a priest than it is because one couldn't make it as a banker, doctor, politician, ditch-digger or anything in between. That was how things were in the days of pre-Communist Europe and Greece at the same time period.
Now in Ireland, according to my Irish Catholic priest from those days, if there were multiple boys in the family at least one of them went on to become either a priest or a monk. Sometimes you would have a family of all priests!

Regardless of culture or Church there is also an element of greed. The mentality being, "I'm old, my wife has died or is dieing, grandchildren are in the college years, I can't take care of myself so who will take care of me?" Priests for the most part do not get paid pretty pennies especially in countries where their salary comes from the state. But, if one's kid(s) became doctors, lawyers or bankers with six figure plus incomes than hopefully one of them will take care of you by paying your retirement home rent because in 21st century America we just don't take care of our elderly like we did fifty plus years ago. We throw them in a home and wait until they die.

Most of the converts on this board became Orthodox because we were spiritually hungry and our previous religious background just didn't quench that thirst. People who are raised in any religious community have just as much spiritual hunger as those who convert; Orthodoxy is no exception to that. If one's parents are spending years of encouraging one to get a "well-paying, successful" job than when does one have time to feed that hunger? "I can't read 'Way of the Pilgrim' because my mom will kick me out of the house if I don't study this book to become a doctor". I heard that from one poor soul and have not forgotten it since.

I can imagine, as my husband tells me that his dad was quite the task master when he and his sister were in school, including college. My sister-in-law started out in med school but ended up getting her teaching certificate and is now a biology teacher. Apparently the fight that went down between her and her dad when she made that decision is legendary! Part of the issue with him was bragging rights... Now he couldn't tell people that his daughter was a doctor.


Thanks for all of your input. I guess if my kids want to go to the Greek church when they are older, they can do what they want. For now, I think I will take them to the OCA church when they start Sunday school next year.

 

[Dorothea]

The OCA is really just another minor form of the Russian Church, imo. All of its traditions are tied to Slavic/Russian background. So, none are without ethnic ties.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

The OCA is really just another minor form of the Russian Church, imo. All of its traditions are tied to Slavic/Russian background. So, none are without ethnic times.

That's true, but at least in the South & West, the OCA is probably 50% converts from all different backgrounds, so there is more diversity than in parishes that identify with a particular ethnicity. You aren't going to find classes that cater to cultural identities.

Mary

 

[Dorothea]

That's true, but at least in the South & West, the OCA is probably 50% converts from all different backgrounds, so there is more diversity than in parishes that identify with a particular ethnicity. You aren't going to find classes that cater to cultural identities.

Mary

This is also true of the GOC's in the West, especially the ones that I've attended. They are much more mixed and less ethnic. It appears the more ethnic OC's are on the east coast and specifically in the Northeast area of the country. This was confirmed by two priests I talk to...one being my own spiritual father who is of Albanian descent who is also our priest at our parish.

Incidentally, here's Fr. Ted (who's Greek descent) talking about the need to stop this ethnic, jurisdictional dissension and such because it's actually considered heretical, apparently. Here's the short just under 8 min. homily on this subject:

Ethnophyletism - iSermon - Ancient Faith Radio

 

[Dorothea]

Greed, culture and not feeding that spiritual hunger.

I remember one time my priest explained that back in the day the priesthood was considered the occupation of last resort when one's attempts with all others failed. If one became a priest than it is because one couldn't make it as a banker, doctor, politician, ditch-digger or anything in between. That was how things were in the days of pre-Communist Europe and Greece at the same time period.
Now in Ireland, according to my Irish Catholic priest from those days, if there were multiple boys in the family at least one of them went on to become either a priest or a monk. Sometimes you would have a family of all priests!

Regardless of culture or Church there is also an element of greed. The mentality being, "I'm old, my wife has died or is dieing, grandchildren are in the college years, I can't take care of myself so who will take care of me?" Priests for the most part do not get paid pretty pennies especially in countries where their salary comes from the state. But, if one's kid(s) became doctors, lawyers or bankers with six figure plus incomes than hopefully one of them will take care of you by paying your retirement home rent because in 21st century America we just don't take care of our elderly like we did fifty plus years ago. We throw them in a home and wait until they die.

Most of the converts on this board became Orthodox because we were spiritually hungry and our previous religious background just didn't quench that thirst. People who are raised in any religious community have just as much spiritual hunger as those who convert; Orthodoxy is no exception to that. If one's parents are spending years of encouraging one to get a "well-paying, successful" job than when does one have time to feed that hunger? "I can't read 'Way of the Pilgrim' because my mom will kick me out of the house if I don't study this book to become a doctor". I heard that from one poor soul and have not forgotten it since.

I would be so grateful and full of joy if at least one of my sons became a priest, monk, or both: priest monk.

 

[Knee V]

At my son's baptism, three priestmonks had their hands on him while he was being dunked, so... I guess time will tell.