Swingers - Swapping Partners

holo · Dec 30, 2008

Nadiine said:
You know people's hearts are PURE?? wow, I thought only
God knew the heart.

I think I know the hearts of a few of the people I know well and personally. Of course I could be wrong, and yes, only God really knows us. But love always assumes the best.

Nadiine said:
How do you know the polygamists aren't actually men w/ control
& ego issues? Following cults & other false religions? Or perverted?

How do you know your own pastor isn't a wolf in sheep's clothing?

I think king David had many wives with a pure heart. I can't know for sure, of course. But that's interesting - was God ok with it then but not now? If he hasn't changed his mind, then either polygamy was never such a big deal for God, or he was really angry at David (and all the other polygamists in the bible).

holo · Dec 30, 2008

sunlover1 said:
Which brothers and sisters? That was a very general statement (I reposted
it below for clarity)
I said, WHEN people SEEM to disregard Scripture it's a heart issue
(I should have added "often" before "a heart issue")

Yes, but it always SEEMS like they're disregarding the scriptures when they don't agree with us.

Which doesn't really make sense anyway - if you really do disregard the scriptures, why would you pretend that you don't? I don't know of a single baptist, lutheran, catholic, mormon, JW, mormon or liberal who disregards scripture. They hardly agree on anything, but they all believe in the scriptures. The thing is that they interpret them differently. Which is no wonder, as the bibles we have are copies of copies of everything from poetry to prophecy written in three different languages by a host of different people.

holo · Dec 30, 2008

Nadiine said:
-
we can handle "colour" just fine - just don't twist the bible to say
& teach what it does not to condone lusts & desires as if God's
ok with it.

I personally can't see how or why God would think it a good idea for people to "swing."

sunlover1 said:
We aren't in the OT anymore, we're in the age of grace and we have
God's law written on our hearts.
The NT is clear on marriage of 1 man with 1 woman (as Jesus defined
it in Mat. 19) and the instructions for church elders to have
only 1 wife in order to be blameless.
Plus, ALL mention of the married are singular.
Ephesians 5:33
Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself,
and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

1 Timothy 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;
1 Timothy 3:1-3 (in Context) 1 Timothy 3 (Whole Chapter)

1 Timothy 3:12
Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
1 Timothy 3:11-13 (in Context) 1 Timothy 3 (Whole Chapter)

1 Timothy 5:9
Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, and not unless she has been the wife of one man,
1 Timothy 5:8-10 (in Context) 1 Timothy 5 (Whole Chapter)

Titus 1:6
if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination.
Titus 1:5-7 (in Context) Titus 1 (Whole Chapter)

So obviously there was a stigma of wrongdoing in polygamy in
the NT. & obviously having sex outside marriage IS ADULTERY.
(nevermind fornication exists in marriage also)

Actually, I don't think it's all that obvious. Half of those verses are about bishops and deacons specifically, and if it was really important to God, I think he would have gotten it spelled out straight. After all, it would be a HUGE change from what the jews were used to.

Personally, I think it's mostly a cultural thing. I don't know anybody who could (or would even want to) have more than one wife. But if that was the norm in old Israel, God just may not have condemned people for it. Especially if you consider God looking to the heart and all. I think that applies to everything - meat and wine and hair lengths and whatnot, and even marriage. For instance, God doesn't require you to have a wedding ceremony. But if you couldn't feel like you were properly married without one, it would be sin for you to skip it.

Anyway, even though all things are clean to him who is clean, doesn't mean all things are wise and good to do.

sunlover1 said:
& it's not the same as swinging anyways; where there's no
responsibility to random sexual partners - we don't attach SIN to
our faith & flaunt it as good. Period.
It's the abuse of another person for one's sexual pleasure

I can't call it abuse if everybody involved do it voluntarily. But again, I don't see what good can come of it, and that's my only reason for being against it.

NaLuvena · Dec 30, 2008

chingchang said:
So are all non-prudent wives not from the LORD? Seriously...what if your wife isn't "prudent"?

The point is God gives good spouses, like all other good things. All good things come from god.

If your wife isn't "prudent" maybe that's why.

chingchang said:
Debatable...hence this thread.

chingchang said:
I don't think God has a "problem" with sex outside of marriage either. Think about Exodus 22:16-17 (NIV)...

If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.

There is no sin here...otherwise God would have required someone to be stoned-to-death our some kind of sacrifice to be made. Instead...it is sorta like I have a strawberry patch and if you come over and pick my strawberries you owe me what the strawberry bush costs. But I may or may not give you the bush after you pay me. I get to decide.

There are many examples of sex outside of marriage in the OT and the only time there are issues is if it involves a married women (without the husband consenting), cultic prostitutes or rape.

Even in the example you used, it is considered a sin. The law provides a way to deal with the fallout of the sin, but it does not condone the initial act.

Floatingaxe · Dec 30, 2008

Nadiine said:
You know people's hearts are PURE?? wow, I thought only
God knew the heart.
How do you know the polygamists aren't actually men w/ control
& ego issues? Following cults & other false religions? Or perverted?

davedjy · Jan 2, 2009

Holo said:
But I know there are polygamists with pure hearts, who are actually following their convictions and even honestly believe that the bible says they should do it

You actually believe that they feel convicted to swing? does that mean that God wants them to share their bodies with others or something?

is that how they twist that whole thing about being fruitful and multiplying?

holo · Jan 2, 2009

davedjy said:
You actually believe that they feel convicted to swing? does that mean that God wants them to share their bodies with others or something?

is that how they twist that whole thing about being fruitful and multiplying?

I don't know any swingers personally, but I know people who do all sorts of stuff that I wouldn't do myself - but they do it with pure intentions. For example, all those who nag others about all their sins and shortcomings (as we see alot here on CF); I often think what they are doing is wrong and destructive, but they believe it's their right and that they're supposed to do it. Or the christians who try to make abused women stay in their marriage no matter what. It's a horrible, horrible thing to do, but they only mean good. They follow their conscience and conviction, and that's why I don't think God will judge them, even though what they are doing is wrong on many levels.

Same goes for me, of course.

MarkSB · Jan 2, 2009

holo said:
I don't know any swingers personally, but I know people who do all sorts of stuff that I wouldn't do myself - but they do it with pure intentions.

I don't know if I'd buy into that. Just because someone doesn't see something as wrong doesn't mean their intentions are pure.

holo · Jan 3, 2009

MarkSB said:
I don't know if I'd buy into that. Just because someone doesn't see something as wrong doesn't mean their intentions are pure.

True, but if we're going to judge anybody's intentions, we better be real sure we're right, or else the blame is on us. I've been on both the receiving and giving end of condemnation (and still am), and the older I get, the more I see how unfounded it usually is. Not to mention how little positive difference it makes, even if it's correct.

god's_pawn · Jan 5, 2009

wayseer said:
No. If you read my post you will note that is NOT what I said.

Please backtrack a little to my post #60 where I noted ... I'm reminded of that passage somewhere that says something to the effect that whosoever looks at another in that certain way has already committed adultery. Hands up those who can plead innocent to this charge.

Apparently, there are those who have not considered this little alteration to the rules by Jesus. Those who are so willing to condemn others for certain behaviour are guilty of those same behaviour in their heart. Yet there are any number of Christians willing to throw the first stone.

Thus my next comment at post #75 ... Ah, Yes - I see a number of hands in the air. Thank you, but I don't happen to share your confidence.

... which I note you have ignored.

For those so willing to condemn my reference to David was an attempt to bring to their attention that the great heroes in the Bible all too often demonstrated behaviour which we could easily condemn. Yet God chose to use these people.

Perhaps you too are a thrower of stones.

ah, now i think i see your view a little better though i'm still not entirely sure where you stand on this issue. also, i wasn't entirely sure what you meant by your comment (and i didn't remember the other post) so i skipped that comment. obviously, everyone makes mistakes hero or not and i'm not one to throw stones. executing justice is a part of God's vocation (if i can use that word) so i try to stay away from it.

god's_pawn · Jan 5, 2009

holo said:
It's not a good thing that she was a prostitute, but it was a good thing that she lied.

My point is that what's right and what's wrong aren't always black and white.

thus God goes by "the end justifies the means"? i don't think so. Yes Rahab lied and that helped the spies, but had she not lied, God would've found a better way.

saitohaj · Jan 5, 2009

you need to just read the Bible on this issue.

Nadiine · Jan 5, 2009

Actually LOVE is the higher law - where love is conerned,
(love of God or love of other's lives), a lie is not evil, it's
protection of life from people with evil intent.

We saw this with Jesus and the Laws where in order to
survive, they were allowed to 'work' to eat on the Sabbath.
Love is the higher law; life comes before letter when
necessary.

(I haven't read how that subject came up,
I'm not sure if it's off topic or not)?

MarkSB · Jan 5, 2009

holo said:
True, but if we're going to judge anybody's intentions, we better be real sure we're right, or else the blame is on us.

I do agree, but it is sound judgement to say that swingers aren't acting out of pure intentions. You wouldn't be wrong to walk away from or judge such behavior as wrong. And when people try to say such acts are in line with scripture, it's not wrong to rebuke them.

Armistead · Jan 5, 2009

I'll be glad to swing if someone is interested.

The woman has to be a great cook.
She must have a high paying job.
Willing to feed and care for 12 show dobs.
Clean house.
Watch 2 kids.
Mow grass

My wife and I will then push her in the backyard swing, then go on vacation. If she gets tired, then we would also agree to "swapping"...her for another women that would do the same.

So we swing and swap and see no sin in it.

Armistead · Jan 5, 2009

chingchang said:
Wrong-o!

Genesis 3:14-24 (KJV)

14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
20And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Ummm...unless you consider 'multiplying sorrow' in childbirth and "he shall rule over thee" (not his design) and so on and so forth (highlighted above) blessings....

Clearly God cursed Adam and Eve. The idea is that Adam wouldn't have been placed over Eve and childbirth wouldn't have been painful (or AS painful) and they wouldn't have to work the ground for the rest of their lives and they wouldn't have been kicked out of the garden if they wouldn't have disobeyed Jehova.

My point is that God CAN bless what we call marriage...but that doesn't mean he does in all cases. Again...not black and white.

As you've noticed...we have gotten side-tracked. I believe adultery is a sin as clearly stated in the Bible. I DO NOT believe that adultery is a sex act. I DO believe that swinging is acceptable for thost whose consciouses it does not violate (Romans 14) and where both partners mutually consent to it.

BTW...did you know that the divorce rate among swingers is lower than that of non-swingers...and certainly much lower than evangelical Christians? I can cite studies if you're really interested...but you'll probably find a way to explain those away too.

CC

I once heard that God does away with marriage in heaven...so we can finally enjoy sex....

Obvious, the rubbing and pleasure of rubbing body parts together are not sinful. My concern with swinging is the possible harm. Studies show that those that swing as a lifestyle get STD's 70-80% more than faithful couples. Condoms offer little protection against STD's such as herpes. Herpes break out on the testes, groin, thighs, ect. Any rubbing would transfer it. Almost every study I found showed that 80% of those that swing on a regular basis get genital herpes.

At many swinging events, drinking and drugs take place. Obvious any couple can do these things, but it usually leads to unsafe sex.

The abortion rate is also high among swingers.

Certainly many have fantasy about swinging. My problem is the harm that can result from it. Sex is dangerous. You get into this life style, you would have to deal with the emotional stress of STD's...AIDS kills. Your having sex with people that have many sex partners. When you sleep with one swinger, your sleeping with another 1000 people. I looked at some swinging sites and read forums. Many were concerned over STD's.

I was glad to get through being single and not getting an STD. I can't imagine living in that fear in such a high risk group. Take time to study past swinging forum sites and look at the lives that were destroyed. Children losing parents from AIDS, ect. When such a possibility of harm is involved, we should stay from it. I wouldn't put my partner at risk. The fact is when your involved....I would have to wonder how many places the body part has just been in the past day.

Swinging seperates the body from love. I agree that swingers aren't the jealous type. I think the fact is they put pleasure over emotional love. Sex is not part of emotional love. Most past swingers admit that why they had great sex with their marriage partner, it lacked a true emotional connection. The brain becomes so programmed that married couples can't
connect on an emotional level sexually. Some connect emotionally in other areas, but they're missing what making love is all about.

I'm all for great sex....if couples want to add to their love life they can do so without all the risk and danger. There is no sin in the sex itself. The sin is in the emotional and physical harm that usually comes.

Just buy a love doll......

Nadiine · Jan 6, 2009

I once heard that God does away with marriage in heaven...so we can finally enjoy sex....

well you must of heard that wrong too...

Obvious, the rubbing and pleasure of rubbing body parts together are not sinful. My concern with swinging is the possible harm

Wrong again

Intent of the heart in doing the act is what God looks at - plus the
act itself.
The concern w/ swinging should be that IT'S SIN to use other
people for our personal playgrounds - it's abuse of others incl.
the spouse & it ALWAYS causes harm.
Esp. spiritual as sin breeds more sin. There's nothing "possible"
about the harm - it's definite.

All sin is harmful in at least 1 way - spiritual. The rest are just
the other consequences as depravity works itself into a person
committing the sins repeatedly.

chingchang · Jan 6, 2009

well you must of heard that wrong too...

My guess is that most people that insist there won't be sex in Heaven generally believe that sex is inherently unclean...or unholy. Truth is...we simply don't know whether or not there will be sex in Heaven. Seems to me if you really enjoy God's gift of sex that you'd want it to exist in Heaven. If sex doesn't exist...then something better will. I can't imagine that some earthly experience would be more enjoyable than anything that exists in Heaven...

Wrong again

Intent of the heart in doing the act is what God looks at - plus the
act itself.
The concern w/ swinging should be that IT'S SIN to use other
people for our personal playgrounds - it's abuse of others incl.
the spouse & it ALWAYS causes harm.
Esp. spiritual as sin breeds more sin. There's nothing "possible"
about the harm - it's definite.

All sin is harmful in at least 1 way - spiritual. The rest are just
the other consequences as depravity works itself into a person
committing the sins repeatedly.

Wrong again...in your opinion. Humble much?

Hugs,
CC

chingchang · Jan 6, 2009

Armistead said:
I once heard that God does away with marriage in heaven...so we can finally enjoy sex....

Obvious, the rubbing and pleasure of rubbing body parts together are not sinful. My concern with swinging is the possible harm. Studies show that those that swing as a lifestyle get STD's 70-80% more than faithful couples. Condoms offer little protection against STD's such as herpes. Herpes break out on the testes, groin, thighs, ect. Any rubbing would transfer it. Almost every study I found showed that 80% of those that swing on a regular basis get genital herpes.

At many swinging events, drinking and drugs take place. Obvious any couple can do these things, but it usually leads to unsafe sex.

The abortion rate is also high among swingers.

Certainly many have fantasy about swinging. My problem is the harm that can result from it. Sex is dangerous. You get into this life style, you would have to deal with the emotional stress of STD's...AIDS kills. Your having sex with people that have many sex partners. When you sleep with one swinger, your sleeping with another 1000 people. I looked at some swinging sites and read forums. Many were concerned over STD's.

I was glad to get through being single and not getting an STD. I can't imagine living in that fear in such a high risk group. Take time to study past swinging forum sites and look at the lives that were destroyed. Children losing parents from AIDS, ect. When such a possibility of harm is involved, we should stay from it. I wouldn't put my partner at risk. The fact is when your involved....I would have to wonder how many places the body part has just been in the past day.

Swinging seperates the body from love. I agree that swingers aren't the jealous type. I think the fact is they put pleasure over emotional love. Sex is not part of emotional love. Most past swingers admit that why they had great sex with their marriage partner, it lacked a true emotional connection. The brain becomes so programmed that married couples can't
connect on an emotional level sexually. Some connect emotionally in other areas, but they're missing what making love is all about.

I'm all for great sex....if couples want to add to their love life they can do so without all the risk and danger. There is no sin in the sex itself. The sin is in the emotional and physical harm that usually comes.

Just buy a love doll......

All valid points and obviously should be considered/evaluated by any couple considering swinging. I would add that emotional love can exist among swingers who are polyamorous. When I talk about 'swinging' I'm not referring to the lifestyle that most associate it with...but simply the act itself.

CC

wkonwtrtom · Jan 7, 2009

Armistead said:
"Obvious, the rubbing and pleasure of rubbing body parts together are not sinful. My concern with swinging is the possible harm. Studies show that those that swing as a lifestyle get STD's 70-80% more than faithful couples. Condoms offer little protection against STD's such as herpes. Herpes break out on the testes, groin, thighs, ect. Any rubbing would transfer it. Almost every study I found showed that 80% of those that swing on a regular basis get genital herpes."

_________My comments:
This post was so full of basic errors that I have to jump in. First, STDs are almost unheard of in the swinging community. This misconception is spread because so many people believe that swingers have indiscriminate sex with total strangers all the time. The fact is that most swinger sex is very selective and usually involves some kind of friendship attachment. Second, herpes is not quite as easy to spread as Armistead seems to think and is generally preventable by using condoms. And it requires an infected person's mucosa regions coming into contact with an area on an uninfected person where the virus can enter the body, not just touching the skin. And herpes is most often spread by people that do not even know that they have it. This info is courtesy of Herpes-Help.com . Most swingers have some form of regular STD testing done on themselves and practice safer sex methods to prevent infections.

"At many swinging events, drinking and drugs take place. Obvious any couple can do these things, but it usually leads to unsafe sex."

___________My comments:
Most swinging events require their participants to limit drinking because a drunk is a drunk and that reduces everyone's fun. Drugs are completely banned at virtually all swinger parties. Some may be used at private home based get togethers but most swingers shun drug use to prevent issues that would draw law enforcement's attention.

"The abortion rate is also high among swingers."

____________My comments:
There is no evidence to back this statement at all since there have been no studies done that broke down abortion statistics by swinger participation. Most swingers are over the age of 30 and 50% of abortions are done by those women under 25. The highest rate is among those girls 15 and under. Many swingers have had children previously and have taken measures to not have any more children or are past the age of child bearing. (see Abort73.com)

"Certainly many have fantasy about swinging. My problem is the harm that can result from it. Sex is dangerous. You get into this life style, you would have to deal with the emotional stress of STD's...AIDS kills. Your having sex with people that have many sex partners. When you sleep with one swinger, your sleeping with another 1000 people. I looked at some swinging sites and read forums. Many were concerned over STD's."

______My comments:
Sex dangerous? Really? I'm sorry but I though God gave humanity (and all animals) sex. and since we can have it so often, it obviously was not just for procreation but also for pleasure and some would even say recreation. This sleeping with 1000 everytime you sleep with one person is complete hogwash and is nothing more than a fear-monger statement. There is no scientific evidence to even attempt to back the statement. And if there were, then everytime that you have sex with your spouse, you are having sex with Adam and/or Eve. That is the rediculous extension of that flawed logic. There has never been one reported case of AIDS spread through swinging. there has been only one reported episode of HIV infection among members of a swingers club. It involved anal rather than vaginal sex, and was reported by the CDC. In this instance, which occurred in 1986, all of the members of a swingers club were tested, and two female members were found to be HIV-positive. Both had engaged in repeated anal intercourse with two bisexual men whose HIV status could not be determined. Presumably they became infected from the anal sex, rather than from vaginal sexual activity. They did not infect any of their male sexual partners, even though their HIV status was not detected until some time after their infection occurred, during which time they continued their sexual activity with various other partners. (courtesy of Virusmyth.com)

"I was glad to get through being single and not getting an STD. I can't imagine living in that fear in such a high risk group. Take time to study past swinging forum sites and look at the lives that were destroyed. Children losing parents from AIDS, ect. When such a possibility of harm is involved, we should stay from it. I wouldn't put my partner at risk. The fact is when your involved....I would have to wonder how many places the body part has just been in the past day."

_________My comments:
The fact is that AIDS is spread almost entirely by Male/Male sex and intravenous drug use. Male to female vaginal sex infection is nearly unheard of in the US.

"Swinging seperates the body from love. I agree that swingers aren't the jealous type. I think the fact is they put pleasure over emotional love. Sex is not part of emotional love. Most past swingers admit that why they had great sex with their marriage partner, it lacked a true emotional connection. The brain becomes so programmed that married couples can't
connect on an emotional level sexually. Some connect emotionally in other areas, but they're missing what making love is all about. "

___________My comments:
Swingers are able to separate SEX from LOVE when they are with someone other than their spouse/regular partner. It does not mean that they do not have a "true emotional connection" with their marriage partner. In fact, as much as 68% of swinger say that it actually greatly increases their emotional connection to their spouse and another 25% say it increases it "somewhat". Making love to their spouse most often becomes MORE emotional and a GREATER expression of love.

"I'm all for great sex....if couples want to add to their love life they can do so without all the risk and danger. There is no sin in the sex itself. The sin is in the emotional and physical harm that usually comes."

___________My comments:
With the divorce rates for swinger actually being lower than the general population and even than the churched, seems that there is more emotional and physical harm coming from those not into swinging than from those into it.

"Just buy a love doll......

" __________My comments:
___ And that is better than swinging how? Does it not still fire up the lust and ignore the spouse? To throw this comment in after the rest of your erroneous rant was comical in it's ludicrousness.

I have no problem with someone not wanting to be a swinger, but at least argue that it is not something you would do and leave it at that rather than making up and/or spreading completely unsubstantiated and erroneous "facts" . I can respect your personal view to stay away from it. Just do not use ignorance and fear of the unknown to make your case. Romans 14

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