Swingers - Swapping Partners

[Floatingaxe]

Luke 6:37 (NIV)
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged.Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

John 14:15 (NIV)
"If you love me, you will obey what I command."

Hmmm...so you've "listened to my teachings"...but are you following? Do you love Jesus? If so...you can show him that by obeying his commands in Luke 6:37!!!

We are to judge what is sin and what isn't. We are to judge whether we are dealing with the spirit of truth or the spirit of lies. That is the very basic of judgments we are called to make, as Christians. Failure to do that renders one a weak Christian who will fall prey to every thing that comes down the pike calling itself good. Heaven help them!

In this instance, we are dealing with the spirit of lies, and sin.

 

[wayseer]

FA - please speak for yourself and do not include me in your diatribe.

 

[NaLuvena]

That is nice...and you might want that to be true...and it might be true in your mind...but it is NOT Biblical. It is not God's consent to give. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 7 that the body of the wife belongs to the husband (not God) and the body of the husband belongs to the wife (not God).

And who gave them the body of their spouse? God.

God gives a husband his wife (and vice versa) and intends that they share the marriage bed, and do not defile it. They are not to bring others into it. Even if they consent to do so, it is still sin in God's eyes.

In your opinion and based on YOUR definition of adultery...not God's. Where there is no harm there is no sin. Love is the fulfillment of the law.

Not the sort of love you are advocating, my friend.

You are assumming. If you study the FACT that something we might call "sexual hospitality" was somewhat common place during OT times you would know otherwise. The picture here is of someone being "caught" behind the back of the rightful property owner.

Again, that is not what God teaches, but the culture of the times then. When God gave Eve to Adam, she was not meant for anyone else but Adam. BTW, where is the proof of the "sexual hospitality" you are claiming was so prevalent in OT times?

Well...I think your understanding of sin is incorrect. The mark that God has set for us IS LOVE. Love for him and love for our neighbor (in Jesus' words). Love is the fulfillment of the law (according to the Bible) for a reason. God is not a Father of uncomprehendable rules with flamming hoops for us to jump through. If you ask "why?" he'll show you (seek/knock). When you don't ask why you never get beyond the letter of the law. When you ask why and receive the answer you'll get the Spirit of the law...which is love. Sin absolutely DOES have to do with harm inflicted on others (read the 10 commandments!!!!!). Some are not so obvious...like "thou shalt not covet...". However...stealing always begins with coveting. So...that makes sense. So on and so forth. When all you see are the rules...you can't see the forest through the trees.

So why is swinging wrong? Because it is not the way God is. The marriage is based on the joining of Christ and His Bride. Will there be swinging there? I think not.

You have a very peculiar definition of love, and sin, for that matter.

 

[&Abel]

So Peter was wrong about Rahab then? She did the wrong thing?

whats your point here? Rahab risked her neck to help gods people...that doesn't mean it was a good thing that she was a prostitute

 

[chingchang]

And who gave them the body of their spouse? God.

??? No. Where is the scripture to back that up? We choose our wives. God does not. When I get up to go to the bathroom...does God choose that for me or am I just responding to a natural urge?

God gives a husband his wife (and vice versa) and intends that they share the marriage bed, and do not defile it. They are not to bring others into it. Even if they consent to do so, it is still sin in God's eyes.

No. The marriage bed IS undefiled (unable to be defiled)...

Hebrews 13:4 (KJV)
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Again, that is not what God teaches, but the culture of the times then. When God gave Eve to Adam, she was not meant for anyone else but Adam. BTW, where is the proof of the "sexual hospitality" you are claiming was so prevalent in OT times?

A very well-sourced paper (lengthy)....

http://www.lectio.unibe.ch/03_2/gur.htm

So why is swinging wrong? Because it is not the way God is. The marriage is based on the joining of Christ and His Bride. Will there be swinging there? I think not.

What does this have to do with sex? God doesn't have a problem with sex...ultra-conservative Christians do though.


CC

 

[wayseer]

The point I am making, as are others, is that it might be profitable to recognise our own shortcomings before jumping all over others for some perceived 'sin'. I note that no such acknowledge has been posted.

 

[Floatingaxe]

FA - please speak for yourself and do not include me in your diatribe.

That's funny. I never spoke to you personally, as you do me. That would be a CF no-no, wouldn't it?

Maybe God is speaking...

 

[holo]

whats your point here? Rahab risked her neck to help gods people...that doesn't mean it was a good thing that she was a prostitute

It's not a good thing that she was a prostitute, but it was a good thing that she lied.

My point is that what's right and what's wrong aren't always black and white.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Right and wrong is always black and white before holy God.

 

[chingchang]

Right and wrong is always black and white before holy God.

Are you talking about this God?:

1 Samuel 15:2-4 (King James Version)
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.


Interesting how any of us would consider killing the infants and "sucklings" of our enemies wrong...but Jehova does not. What is more interesting is that the Apostle John tells us that God is love...

1 John 4:8 (NIV)
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

I'm not so sure wrong/right black/white is how Jehova operates. The same God who has infants murdered tells us not to murder and then comes down in human form and says...

Matthew 5:38-39 (NIV)
"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

So it is wrong to murder and strike someone back that strikes you...but Jehova kills infants and he IS love?

My point here is that it is not black and white.

CC

 

[Floatingaxe]

Are you talking about this God?:

1 Samuel 15:2-4 (King James Version)
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.


Interesting how any of us would consider killing the infants and "sucklings" of our enemies wrong...but Jehova does not. What is more interesting is that the Apostle John tells us that God is love...

Our understanding is not God's. We mustn't judge God according to our inferior ways. To judge God places one above God.

1 John 4:8 (NIV)

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

I'm not so sure wrong/right black/white is how Jehova operates. The same God who has infants murdered tells us not to murder and then comes down in human form and says...

Matthew 5:38-39 (NIV)
"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

So it is wrong to murder and strike someone back that strikes you...but Jehova kills infants and he IS love?

My point here is that it is not black and white.

CC

Sure, it is.

At the Great White Throne of Judgment, we'll see what's black and white.

 

[holo]

Right and wrong is always black and white before holy God.

So in the case of Rahab, what would be the right thing to do?

And how do you fare before God, if everything is black and white? Are you always perfect? Or do you fail from time to time? But God doesn't condemn you for it, does he, because he knows your heart and intentions. You are lucky God extends that favour to you. You should extend it to others.

 

[chingchang]

Our understanding is not God's. We mustn't judge God according to our inferior ways. To judge God places one above God.



Sure, it is.

At the Great White Throne of Judgment, we'll see what's black and white.

I'm not judging God, I'm just saying that to avoid judging God and be a person who values life you have to accept that it is not black and white. If it is black and white then God is a blood-thirsty murdering puppeteer.

cc

 

[Floatingaxe]

When I fail my God, I suffer remorse, and repent. I don't sin and teach others it is good. God is plain in His communicating to us what sin is. What may cause a pause in our discerning is clearly given by the Holy Spirit living within. We believers are not bereft of the knowledge of what constitutes sin. Any believer who embraces an obvious sin such as wife-swapping, or adultery of any kind, is a compromised one, and will be judged by God as perhaps reprobate.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I'm not judging God, I'm just saying that to avoid judging God and be a person who values life you have to accept that it is not black and white. If it is black and white then God is a blood-thirsty murdering puppeteer.

cc

God sees in black and white. What is said above is disgusting to me, and is judging God Almighty, and reveals a lack of the knowledge of who God really is, along with respect. I find that incredible, considering the disgusting topic that is being argued. Christians shouldn't even be arguing such disgusting behaviour.

Even non-believers consider it vile!

 

[holo]

God is plain in His communicating to us what sin is. What may cause a pause in our discerning is clearly given by the Holy Spirit living within.

So what should Rahab have done? Since it's all black and white?

 

[NaLuvena]

??? No. Where is the scripture to back that up? We choose our wives. God does not. When I get up to go to the bathroom...does God choose that for me or am I just responding to a natural urge?

Proverbs 19:14

Houses and wealth are inherited from parents, but a prudent wife is from the LORD.

No. The marriage bed IS undefiled (unable to be defiled)...

Hebrews 13:4 (KJV)
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

True. The marriage bed is undefilable. When the people on it are not married, however, that is no longer the marriage bed, but something else.

A very well-sourced paper (lengthy)....

http://www.lectio.unibe.ch/03_2/gur.htm

Still the traditions of man. That is the point, marriage started from God, not from any nation, man, or culture.

What does this have to do with sex? God doesn't have a problem with sex...ultra-conservative Christians do though.

God doesn't have a problem with sex, as long as it is within marriage. The whole issue being discussed is swinging, which is not Christian.

 

[chingchang]

God sees in black and white. What is said above is disgusting to me, and is judging God Almighty, and reveals a lack of the knowledge of who God really is, along with respect. I find that incredible, considering the disgusting topic that is being argued. Christians shouldn't even be arguing such disgusting behaviour.

Even non-believers consider it vile!

Sure. And a lot of non-believers don't consider it vile. That is why there are an estimated 2-4 million swingers in the U.S. alone. What exactly about sexual enjoyment is vile to you? Is it "vile" when a married couple has sex? We're talking about sex here...it is a gift from the God Most High imho.

I'm sorry if a God who requires innocent animals to be cut open an burned disgusts and sickens you. I'm sorry if a God who has had his armies wipe out entire cultures (men, women, children, infants, livestock) disgusts you. I'm sorry if a God who would have given David even MORE women if he just would have avoided sinning disgusts you. I'm sorry if a God who spoke no wrong of Lots daughers having sex with him while he was drunk disgusts you. I'm sorry if having a God who sent plagues, famine and enemies unto his own people disgusts you. I'm sorry if God execting a Brother to have sex with his dead Brother's wife if she had not yet had a child disgusts you. I'm sorry if all of these events (and others) are dirty laundry that disturbs Christians to talk about...but they are true none-the-less.

So...in your line of thinking if a man and woman are engaged to be married and have sex that is "disgusting behavior". But...one day later they get married and have sex and now all of the sudden their sex is "wonderful"?

cc

 

[Floatingaxe]

Sure. And a lot of non-believers don't consider it vile. That is why there are an estimated 2-4 million swingers in the U.S. alone. What exactly about sexual enjoyment is vile to you? Is it "vile" when a married couple has sex? We're talking about sex here...it is a gift from the God Most High imho.

A gift from God to married couples only, not to be shared outside the marriage. Duh!

I'm sorry if a God who requires innocent animals to be cut open an burned disgusts and sickens you. I'm sorry if a God who has had his armies wipe out entire cultures (men, women, children, infants, livestock) disgusts you. I'm sorry if a God who would have given David even MORE women if he just would have avoided sinning disgusts you. I'm sorry if a God who spoke no wrong of Lots daughers having sex with him while he was drunk disgusts you. I'm sorry if having a God who sent plagues, famine and enemies unto his own people disgusts you. I'm sorry if God execting a Brother to have sex with his dead Brother's wife if she had not yet had a child disgusts you. I'm sorry if all of these events (and others) are diry laundry that disturbs Christians to talk about...but they are true none-the-less.

Non sequiturs...

So...in your line of thinking if a man and woman are engaged to be married and have sex that is "disgusting behavior". But...one day later they get married and have sex and now all of the sudden their sex is "wonderful"?

cc

Yes, that is what God says.

 

[chingchang]

Proverbs 19:14

Houses and wealth are inherited from parents, but a prudent wife is from the LORD.

So are all non-prudent wives not from the LORD? Seriously...what if your wife isn't "prudent"?

True. The marriage bed is undefilable. When the people on it are not married, however, that is no longer the marriage bed, but something else.

Debatable...hence this thread.

God doesn't have a problem with sex, as long as it is within marriage. The whole issue being discussed is swinging, which is not Christian.

I don't think God has a "problem" with sex outside of marriage either. Think about Exodus 22:16-17 (NIV)...

If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.

There is no sin here...otherwise God would have required someone to be stoned-to-death our some kind of sacrifice to be made. Instead...it is sorta like I have a strawberry patch and if you come over and pick my strawberries you owe me what the strawberry bush costs. But I may or may not give you the bush after you pay me. I get to decide.

There are many examples of sex outside of marriage in the OT and the only time there are issues is if it involves a married women (without the husband consenting), cultic prostitutes or rape.

CC