LDS Swedish Mormons Began Leaving LDS!

[He is the way]

Oh, just cut it out---it's in every history book, Mormon and non-Mormon. It's glossed over in Mormon books, of course. The parents taught him. Quite pretending they didn't.

Okay since you have no evidence that would stand up in court, then I declare him and his family not guilty.

 

[mmksparbud]

Okay since you have no evidence that would stand up in court, then I declare him and his family not guilty.

LOL!! I know you reject all eyewitness accounts as anti-Mormon rubbish. You believe no one but JS---and you will tear up this eye witness also, along with all the others. Even though this was taken down before a judge.

WILLIAM STAFFORD.

State of New York, Wayne County, ss:


I certify, that on this 9th day of December, 1833, personally appeared before me, William Stafford, to me known, and made oath to the truth of the above statement, and signed the same.


TH. P. BALDWIN,
Judge of Wane County Court.




You won't believe God this point!! You'd say He misunderstood.



William Stafford Statement on Joseph Smith

 

[He is the way]

What you have here is a different text, so of course it's going to lead to a different interpretation, if you look at it in isolation as you are doing! That's not a problem of "My interpretation" (since I didn't interpret anything; what I presented was already glossed, I merely pointed out some features of the language that make the Mormon interpretation obviously false), but of the fact that we are dealing with a different base text. What I presented was this:

^ This is Genesis 1:27 -- you presented Genesis 1:26, which has entirely different grammatical constructs to deal with. So don't pretend like I've "misinterpreted" something we weren't talking about until right now. That deceptive and kind of insulting. It's a different verse.

In 1:26, the relevant nouns end in -nū (cf. the above image of the Hebrew with gloss, where there are no forms that end that way), which I know from already speaking Arabic (which is also a Semitic language) is the equivalent of the Arabic enclitic (affixed) plural form for the first person dual and plural, -nā (نا-), so yes, those forms would be "Our", rather than "His". What this has to do with anything is beyond me, though. If you want to talk about 1:26, then why don't we do so without separating it from 1:27, since obviously they form one thematic event (i.e., God doesn't just announce that He is going to do this and then not do it)? After all, it is certainly fine to say all the things said in 1:26 about God's plan to do this, but when He gets to it, it still says in the following verse "HE (singular) created" "in HIS image (singular)", and so on.

So, if this is how you are going to interpret it, I suppose it's fair to ask: where did the 'other gods' of the earlier verse go, then? Did they immediately skedaddle when it came time to do the work of creating things? I don't want to make any Mormons mad by putting this out there, but that idea would seem to contradict the Mormon creation narrative whereby creation was a matter of others doing the work and going back to 'report' to God the Father. Hmmm.

You said: "So, if this is how you are going to interpret it, I suppose it's fair to ask: where did the 'other gods' of the earlier verse go, then? Did they immediately skedaddle when it came time to do the work of creating things?"

I believe that the Bible translation is correct as is this verse:

(Old Testament | Genesis 3:22)

22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Who would you say God was talking to?

 

[dzheremi]

That doesn't answer my question. Can you please answer it before asking me questions? Thank you.

 

[mmksparbud]

You said: "So, if this is how you are going to interpret it, I suppose it's fair to ask: where did the 'other gods' of the earlier verse go, then? Did they immediately skedaddle when it came time to do the work of creating things?"

I believe that the Bible translation is correct as is this verse:

(Old Testament | Genesis 3:22)

22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Who would you say God was talking to?

Son and Holy Spirit

 

[He is the way]

LOL!! I know you reject all eyewitness accounts as anti-Mormon rubbish. You believe no one but JS---and you will tear up this eye witness also, along with all the others. Even though this was taken down before a judge.

WILLIAM STAFFORD.

State of New York, Wayne County, ss:


I certify, that on this 9th day of December, 1833, personally appeared before me, William Stafford, to me known, and made oath to the truth of the above statement, and signed the same.


TH. P. BALDWIN,
Judge of Wane County Court.




You won't believe God this point!! You'd say He misunderstood.



William Stafford Statement on Joseph Smith

I believe that some people figured that Joseph Smith was a money digger because of the golden plates.
William Stafford's story about money digging and the cave resembles the place where the plates were found and where the plates were returned to. Many of the people in the area were interested in getting the golden plates for themselves. However Joseph did not sale the plates even when he was destitute. William Stafford's own son did not believe the sheep story and neither do I.

 

[He is the way]

That doesn't answer my question. Can you please answer it before asking me questions? Thank you.

I said that I believe that the Bible translation is correct. Verse 47 does not nullify verse 46. It is just a more personal nature of which if the Gods did what. Perhaps you could answer my question.

 

[mmksparbud]

I believe that some people figured that Joseph Smith was a money digger because of the golden plates.
William Stafford's story about money digging and the cave resembles the place where the plates were found and where the plates were returned to. Many of the people in the area were interested in getting the golden plates for themselves. However Joseph did not sale the plates even when he was destitute. William Stafford's own son did not believe the sheep story and neither do I.

He was a "money digger" before the golden plate story, so was his father and even grandfather. As I said---you're going to believe only what JS says.

 

[He is the way]

He was a "money digger" before the golden plate story, so was his father and even grandfather. As I said---you're going to believe only what JS says.

Joseph Smith was born December 23, 1805

William Stafford Statement on Joseph Smith, Jr.

Manchester, Ontario Co. N. Y. Dec. 8th, 1833.

Joseph Smith was 28 years old when the statement was written. That is 13 years after his first vision and 6 years after he received the plates. William Stafford stated "I first became acquainted with Joseph, Sen., and his family in the year 1820. They lived, at that time, in Palmyra, about one mile and a half from my residence." However Joseph Smith and his family moved to Manchester in 1819 or thereabouts. I am finding more and more problems with William Stafford's statement.

 

[mmksparbud]

Joseph Smith was born December 23, 1805

William Stafford Statement on Joseph Smith, Jr.

Manchester, Ontario Co. N. Y. Dec. 8th, 1833.

Joseph Smith was 28 years old when the statement was written. That is 13 years after his first vision and 6 years after he received the plates. William Stafford stated "I first became acquainted with Joseph, Sen., and his family in the year 1820. They lived, at that time, in Palmyra, about one mile and a half from my residence." However Joseph Smith and his family moved to Manchester in 1819 or thereabouts. I am finding more and more problems with William Stafford's statement.

In 1820, when he first met the family, JS would have been 15. There are many different versions of his first version and the age is anywhere from 14-16. It doesn't matter how many years after his meeting it was written. The NT was not written until 70 years after Christ's resurrection.

"Joseph left four known firsthand accounts of his vision, and contemporaries recorded five more known accounts after hearing him speak about it. Combined, these accounts are a rich resource, providing Latter-day Saints with a greater understanding of this significant event."

"He testified unto me that Jesus Christ is the son of God. And I saw many angels in this vision. I was about fourteen years old when I received this first communication."


3 aI was born in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and five, on the twenty-third day of December, in the town of Sharon, Windsor county, State of Vermont. … My father, bJoseph Smith, Sen., left the State of Vermont, and moved to Palmyra, Ontario (now Wayne) county, in the State of New York, when I was in my tenth year, or thereabouts. In about four years after my father’s arrival in Palmyra, he moved with his family into Manchester in the same county of Ontario—
The First Vision: A Narrative from Joseph Smith’s Accounts

According to this account by JS---it was About 1815 when the family came to Palmyra--he was 10. 4 years later they moved to Manchester--when he was about 14. Which would be about 1819. Yes---Stafford says he met the family in 1829 in Palmyra---Palmyra was in the same county as Manchester at the time.
"Palmyra is the birthplace of the Latter Day Saint movement. Founder Joseph Smith, whose family lived on a farm that straddled the line between Palmyra and Manchester,"

The distance between the 2 places was less than 20 miles. Most everything about the JS history say ABOUT---so Stafford met them ABOUT 1820, IN THE COUNTY OF ONTARIO, NY. There is no real contradiction here. Point is---what was the family doing? All accounts say--money digging and dabbling in the occult.

 

[Peter1000]

Ignorance must be bliss. Maybe someday the light will come on for you. Until then, you will be like a hamster on a wheel, always chasing your "keep the commandments" mantra to show your love for God, but never reaching your goal. You will always fall short.

For us Christians, we acknowledge that we will always fall short. Yet, by the grace of God, He still loves us.

According to you, 'He is the way', has already reached his goal of believing in Christ and the baptism of the spirit. So according to you he is already saved. But now he is just doing what Christ also told us to do, and that is keep his commandments, and walk as a new person in Christ.

So don't worry about 'He is the way', no light has to turn on, it has been on since he believed and was baptized with the spirit. He just reads the other scriptures in the bible and feels like he ought to be keeping them too. You should take a look too.

 

[Peter1000]

LOL!! I know you reject all eyewitness accounts as anti-Mormon rubbish. You believe no one but JS---and you will tear up this eye witness also, along with all the others. Even though this was taken down before a judge.

WILLIAM STAFFORD.

State of New York, Wayne County, ss:


I certify, that on this 9th day of December, 1833, personally appeared before me, William Stafford, to me known, and made oath to the truth of the above statement, and signed the same.


TH. P. BALDWIN,
Judge of Wane County Court.




You won't believe God this point!! You'd say He misunderstood.



William Stafford Statement on Joseph Smith

So what if William Stafford made a comment on the life and times of the Smith family? Could he be lying through his teeth, as many anti-JS and family people did in the beginning, to discredit JS.

It is a miracle that JS got over all this stupidity and the church was able to get started and now is one of the fastest growing churches in the world.

 

[He is the way]

In 1820, when he first met the family, JS would have been 15. There are many different versions of his first version and the age is anywhere from 14-16. It doesn't matter how many years after his meeting it was written. The NT was not written until 70 years after Christ's resurrection.

"Joseph left four known firsthand accounts of his vision, and contemporaries recorded five more known accounts after hearing him speak about it. Combined, these accounts are a rich resource, providing Latter-day Saints with a greater understanding of this significant event."

"He testified unto me that Jesus Christ is the son of God. And I saw many angels in this vision. I was about fourteen years old when I received this first communication."


3 aI was born in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and five, on the twenty-third day of December, in the town of Sharon, Windsor county, State of Vermont. … My father, bJoseph Smith, Sen., left the State of Vermont, and moved to Palmyra, Ontario (now Wayne) county, in the State of New York, when I was in my tenth year, or thereabouts. In about four years after my father’s arrival in Palmyra, he moved with his family into Manchester in the same county of Ontario—
The First Vision: A Narrative from Joseph Smith’s Accounts

According to this account by JS---it was About 1815 when the family came to Palmyra--he was 10. 4 years later they moved to Manchester--when he was about 14. Which would be about 1819. Yes---Stafford says he met the family in 1829 in Palmyra---Palmyra was in the same county as Manchester at the time.
"Palmyra is the birthplace of the Latter Day Saint movement. Founder Joseph Smith, whose family lived on a farm that straddled the line between Palmyra and Manchester,"

The distance between the 2 places was less than 20 miles. Most everything about the JS history say ABOUT---so Stafford met them ABOUT 1820, IN THE COUNTY OF ONTARIO, NY. There is no real contradiction here. Point is---what was the family doing? All accounts say--money digging and dabbling in the occult.

You said: "The NT was not written until 70 years after Christ's resurrection." Are you saying that the apostles wrote it after they were dead?

William Stafford said "Joseph Smith, Sen., came to me one night, and told me, that Joseph Jr. had been looking in his glass......." That would be quite a horse ride, 20 miles one way from Manchester. Hard to believe that he would ride 40 miles that night. I am guessing that William Stafford was full of tall tells.