Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days separated by 1000 years+?

iamlamad said:

If some on this thread were GOD and got to make the decisions - NO ONE in Israel would stand a chance.

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Name one person in this thread who would do that. Just one. I'm pretty sure everyone here wants everyone in the world (including everyone in Israel) to be saved just like God does.

Thank God: GOD Is God. He can see into the future (which no one on this thread can) and see the day that they will accept Him as their Messiah and morn that their ancestors murdered Him. He WILL rescue them in the nick of time and they will SEE HIM and ask Him about the wounds in His hands.

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I'm very glad that you are not God. Instead, God is impartial and views everyone the same and wants the same thing for everyone regardless of ethnicity, which is to repent and put their faith in His Son, Jesus Christ so that they may have eternal life and be with Him for eternity.

Galatians 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Scripture simply does not separate Jews and Gentiles like you do. Christ has brought Jew and Gentile believers together as one body of Christ. Please join us in this New Testament era. You are stuck in the Old Testament era.

iamlamad said:

This is about as far-fetched as anything you hare written here. Can you show us scripture to back this idea up?

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I have given Paul's writings several times. It is Paul’s definition of a resurrection.

sovereigngrace said:

The opposite is the truth. It is only after his banishment from heaven that they overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. They are also persecuted for their testimony of Christ.

Your Pretrib theology forces you to reject much truth.

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Your truth has them fighting Satan in the flesh then. How many times have you won a fist fight with Satan?

sovereigngrace said:

This is a major difference between Premillennialism and Amillennialism. Amillennialism recognizes the introduction of the new covenant and the abolition of the old superseded covenant. Amillennialism believes the cross was the final sacrifice for sin. Premillennialism rejects that. Amillennialism recognize God's people as those who have faith in Christ alone. Anyone else is of their father the devil according to Jesus. Premillennialism promotes a false teaching on this subject. They're always venerating natural Christ-rejecting Israel.

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The truth is far closer to this: amil' spiritualizes or symbolizes a lot of very literal scriptures to make their theory fit, then downgrades all others who refuse to do the same.

sovereigngrace said:

Satan is defeated. We enforce that victory since Christ's 1st resurrection.

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Satan never had any power to begin with. He had imagination, and begs God to try it his way. Imagination that views God's Word as only symbolic and not literal.

iamlamad said:

The truth is far closer to this: amil' spiritualizes or symbolizes a lot of very literal scriptures to make their theory fit, then downgrades all others who refuse to do the same.

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You mean like how premils take 2 Peter 3:3-13, 1 Thess 4:13-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, John 5:28-29, Acts 17:30-31, Matthew 24:36-39, Matthew 13:40-43, Matthew 25:31-46 and passages like those very literally?

Oh wait. They don't take those very literally at all. Not necessarily in the sense of spiritualizing or symbolizing them, but in the sense of adding time periods to them that don't fit what the text actually says. Or in the sense of reducing the number of people passages like those are talking about if they are taken literally.

For example, premil turns "all people" remaining alive on the earth being killed in Rev 19:18 into only some people without any basis for doing so. Another example is, if taken literally, all "those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of Christ" will be killed when Christ returns (2 Thess 1:7-10) but premil turns that into only some who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of Christ being killed. Premil turns Christ's claim that all unbelievers will be killed at His coming just like in Noah's day (Matt 24:37-39) into only some unbelievers being killed on that day.

Also, "one time coming" when all the dead are raised becomes two times coming when the dead are raised separated by 1000+ years, the day of judgment becomes two days of judgment, Christ coming and then the end (1 Cor 15:22-24) becomes Christ coming and then 1000+ years and then the end, the earth being burned up at Christ's coming becomes the earth being burned up 1000+ years after His coming (even though it's God's wrath against second coming scoffers), and so on.

I understand that pre-trib (and pre-wrath) premil people would understand some of these things differently than post-trib premil people, but everything I said above applies applies at least to many premils (but not necessarily all premils in every case).

iamlamad said:

Sorry, wrong again. NOT a Dispy' claim at all. Go back and read Eze. 37 - 39.

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Claim: The “Dry Bones” of Ezekiel chapter 37 prove that God restored the land to the Jews during 1948.


Ezekiel begins the book in verse 1, of chapter 1, revealing that he is among the captives. Therefore, the land restoration that followed his time would have occurred when the Jews returned from captivity in Babylon, instead of 1948. The “dry bones” in the passage coming back to life can also refer to the future bodily resurrection, and judgment of the dead described by Christ in the passage below.


Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


There is also a deeper meaning found in the passage once we understand the purpose of the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which was fulfilled at Calvary.


In verse 14 God says He will put His spirit in the people. The Holy Spirit is an essential part of the New Covenant found below. What is circumcision of the heart?


Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;

Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.


Notice what we find about Israel and Judah being not divided anymore in the verse below, and then compare it to the promise of the New Covenant.


Eze 37:19 say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand." '


Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—



Were Israel and Judah put back together as one stick during 1948, or were they put back together when the New Covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ at Calvary?


Look at the verse below which refers to the people of God from Ezekiel and compare it to the New Covenant verse from Jeremiah.


Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.



Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.




Will King David be over Israel “forever”, or will it be David’s offspring who will sit on David’s throne, as revealed by Peter on the Day of Pentecost? What is the “everlasting” covenant found in Hebrews 13:20? It is found below in Ezekiel 37?


Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.



Who is the “sanctuary” of the New Covenant, who will be with His people “forever” at the end of the Book of Revelation? Is it the Son of God, or is it David?


By making Ezekiel 37 about the modern State of Israel established by the God-less United Nations during 1948, modern Dispensational Theology has hidden the deeper meaning of the passage. Is the passage referring to the New Covenant fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary, or is it referring to 1948? Which interpretation reveals the Glory of God’s Son, who died to bring the house of Israel and the house of Judah back together into one stick, under the New Covenant fulfilled by His blood?



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Timtofly said:

Satan never had any power to begin with. He had imagination, and begs God to try it his way. Imagination that views God's Word as only symbolic and not literal.

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If Satan never had any power to begin with then explain this passage:

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

sovereigngrace said:

He blinded the nations before the cross. He was God of the Gentiles. Now his territory has being invaded for 2000 years. The Church now has power over him. The nations are now without excuse. The light is shining bright.

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You are confusing physical with spiritual. You are setting up the church as physical instead of being a choice of the will. There is not a physical connection to the Nations even if you only symbolize the notion. You are physical, not just a symbol in some simulation. When you confuse the physical with the symbolic, you are being hyper symbolic, no?

Spiritual Jew said:

If Satan never had any power to begin with then explain this passage:

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

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The mental state of humanity is a power. That is part of the deception. Do you think we cannot even decieve ourselves as well?

sovereigngrace said:

I don't have a clue what you are trying to say. I hope you do.

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I was thinking the same thing...


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Spiritual Jew said:

Where does scripture teach this? Please be specific in showing where these lessons are mentioned and that their purpose will be to teach people at that time "what it meant for Christ to die and pay for their sins".

He must be trying to be like Paul.

Galatians 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

You seem to say that there is Jew and then there is Gentile and no one should try to make them alike. Paul says "there is neither Jew nor Gentile" and "there is no difference between Jew and Gentile". I side with Paul.

Where does scripture teach that the nation of Israel will rule the other nations of the world through Christ?

Why would sin offerings (animal sacrifices) be reinstituted when Christ already long ago made His "once for all" sacrifice? That would be a terrible insult to Christ and His work on the cross. The animal sacrifices of the old covenant were only a foreshadowing of Christ's sacrifice (Heb 10:1). They served their purpose already. There is no basis for thinking they will ever be reinstituted. Doing so would be blasphemous.

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Hi Spiritual Jew,

The `lessons` are mentioned in Ezekiel 44: 23 - 28 as I previously posted to SG.

`And they (priests) shall teach my people the difference between the holy and the unholy....they shall keep my laws and my statutes ...` (etc)

The people are learning about God, His holy law and what sin is. They are an earthly people with an earthly inheritance. They do not have the Holy Spirit within to make them like Christ or have the revelation we have.

yes the OT sacrifices were a covering looking forward to Christ coming and paying the sacrifice. For us that means we are now IN Christ and have a heavenly inheritance. we are made like Christ and will have a heavenly body.

The people on the earth after the Body of Christ has gone are an earthly people and as such need to learn of God`s ways and His laws. Those that do obey God will go onto the new earth after being judged at the great white throne.

Here are some scriptures that reveal that Israel will rule the other nations of the world.


The Rulership of God through Israel on the earth.


`Behold, in those days and at that time, when I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; and enter into judgment with them there on account of my people, my heritage Israel. `(Joel 3: 1 & 2)


`Then the kingdom and dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the heaven, shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.` (Dan. 7: 27)


`And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and keep the feast of Tabernacles.` (Zech. 14: 16)


`Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the Lord`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and peoples shall flow to it. Many nations shall come and say, :Cone, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths.” (Micah 4: 1 & 2)


`For Jacob my servant`s sake and Israel my elect.` (Isa. 45: 4)

Spiritual Jew said:

So, you think the following verses will be obsolete at that point?

Acts 4:11 Jesus is “‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’ 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

You are preaching a different gospel than the gospel of Christ. Paul warned about doing that.

Galatians 3:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Why would God want to revert back to the inferior old covenant system again at any time in the future? Is the once for all sacrifice of Christ's shed blood going to somehow not be sufficient any longer at that point? How could that be?

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I am not preaching another gospel. It is just that your view point is all about YOU. God`s word centres on Christ and His great purposes through Him for the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the Nations.

Christ made the three different realms in God`s great kingdom and he is preparing different groups to rule in those realms under Himself.

We are not all `soup` together in one spot. However we are all one family of God, however (like a family) there are different inheritances for each group.

Every rulership in every realm will be because of what Christ has done.

The Body of Christ will have the inheritance of rulership with the Lord in the highest realm. Thus they, (we) need to be made like Christ and have a heavenly body. To do that we need to die to self and let the Holy Spirit work out Christ nature in our life. It is the highest calling.

Then the OT saints never had that privilege as Christ had not died, and then ascended to send His Holy Spirit. However they had the Holy Spirit come upon different ones to prophecy, and do great acts. They were accounted righteous by believing in what God promised them as their inheritance - the city coming down from God out of heaven. That is to the lower realm. There they will rule. (Heb. 11: 16, Rev. 21:12)

And finally God made the earth and when He makes it new then there will be people who will dwell upon it and walk in the light of the New Jerusalem. (Rev. 21: 24) These are

- the great multitude from the trib, (Rev. 7: 9)
- those who followed God in the millennium, (Rev. 20: 13)
- those that never heard of Jesus but lived right according to their conscience, (Rev. 20: 13)
- Unborn babies & children under the age of accountability. (2 Sam. 12: 23)

God is so merciful and all through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Timtofly said:

The mental state of humanity is a power. That is part of the deception. Do you think we cannot even decieve ourselves as well?

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You said Satan never had any power to begin with and then I showed you a passage that 100% says otherwise. Can you acknowledge that you were wrong in saying that Satan never had any power to begin with? To suggest otherwise would imply that you think Christ did not break Satan's power by way of His death as Hebrews 2:14-15 indicates.

Marilyn C said:

I am not preaching another gospel. It is just that your view point is all about YOU.

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No, my viewpoint is all about Jesus Christ and defending His honor while yours is all about Israel and returning to the inferior old covenant system that Christ made obsolete long ago, which is a major offense to Christ's sacrifice.

BABerean2 said:

In the interview below, how many times does Jacob Rothschild give credit to God for creating the modern State of Israel?

The Son answers the question below about those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone".


Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
Mat 21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
Mat 21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
Mat 21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Mat 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.


Christ said the kingdom would be given to another nation bearing fruit.

That "holy nation" which accepts the "chief cornerstone" is found in 1 Peter 2:4-10.


Dual Covenant Theology based on race is one of the greatest deceptions in the history of our faith. Paul warned against future use of genealogies in Titus 3:9.
Modern Dispensational Theology only works by ignoring Paul's warning.

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I am not interested I what sinful man says, only what God says in His word. And you should also.

And that NATION is not the Body of Christ for we are a heavenly Body (1 Peter 2: 4 - 10) NOT an earthly nation. God is gracious to us, and He will be gracious to Israel now that Christ has paid the price for their national rebellion.

I am not basing my theology on race but on the Lord Jesus Christ. He made the different realms and He is making the different one`s of God`s family to rule under Him in every realm.

1. The highest realm.
2. The Universe.
3. The earth.

All one family of God, however different inheritances as God desires.