[suqats] knee problems.

[Spicy McHaggis]

** long post, clif's at bottom**

Hey guys,

I’m lifting with a friend of mine now.


He’s a big dude. There’s a lot of excess fat to get rid of, but the plus side of being a big guy is carrying all that weight for all those years develops some pretty solid calve muscles. I only write that because I have skinny legs and I’m jealous.

Anywho, he’s about 310 lbs, and around 6ft tall.

We’ve been talking a bit about attitude, and what’s really going to work for this guy to lose fat.

Running, not going to happen. Swimming’s out too. Pretty much all cardio other than light walking is just not going to happen. This guy’s in the Clydesdale class. One on hand, it’s tough for him to do cardio, he’s just not built for endurance. On the other hand, he’s got the body type for heavy lifting or being a defensive lineman. The path of least resistance, or at least the path of logical progress is to go with what works, and lift. Maximize what his body type is geared for instead of forcing the big guy to run like a Kenyan messenger.

What I’ve been explaining to him is if he just ignores “body weight” and concentrates on “body fat”, he can lose the fat by lifting weights (gain muscle, burn calories, gain more muscle, burn more calories, etc). So we’re lifting, heavy lifting (working our way into it) twice a week. We’re going with one rep sets to failure. Starting with isolation exercises like triceps presses, curls, hamstring curls, extensions, side raises and calve raises. Stuff like that to hit the main beach muscles and get them worn down.

After that we move to compound exercises. Dead lift, row, military press, squat, pull downs and bench press on a slight incline.

The reason we’re doing it this way is to get past the mental block of “how much lifting sucks, you mean I have to do that 2 more times?!?!”. Me, I like the pain and the grinding through the last set. Him, not so much. But if it’s one exercise, one set, just go until you can and then it’s done, that’s something he can stick with. One task with an end in sight then move on to something else.

Okay now the problem we’re coming too is the dead lifts and squats. While being a big guy for a decade or so does built impressive calf muscles, it also puts a lot of pressure on his knees, and he knees are hurting and popping when he goes into a squat.

Knees and lower back are the two things I would never mess around with or push too hard. Once you hurt your back, like, really hurt your back, it’s hurt for a long time. And from what I’ve seen, the people that have knee surgery or back surgery never get back to where they were or how they felt before the surgery.

Long story short, my buddy’s a big guy, I’m trying to help him and he agreed to a heavy lifting/power lifting type program because that’s what works for him, his body type, and his mental approach.

How do we get squats and stuff in there without him blowing out his knee? So far the only thing I’m thinking is to start with no weight, just the 300 lb frame, and slowly add 10-20 pounds here and there.

Problem is, if you’re lifting for muscle mass and NOT doing squats, you’re missing a hug piece of the puzzle.


CLIFS:
Friend is a big boy
Heavy lifting routine
How do we do squats and stuff without wrecking his knees?

 

[Tuffguy]

Legs train different then many other muscles on your body. High reps (18-25) will still yeild big legs. Occasionally, i will still do a heavy set to break things up...but 3 sets of high reps keep the leg strength up.
You can also do weighted lunges. Just as good as squatting.

 

[fitmom]

Like Tuffguy said, higher reps. and lower weight for all of his strength training.
Your friend Cliff has no choice but to do some cardio. He MUST lose some weight first to protect his knees. This is a really wrong program for your friend Cliff.
Cliff needs to set goals, appropriate goals and Cliff needs to want to acheive them. You are a good friend to help him so much, but this is up to Cliff.
Cliff needs to imporve his eating and sit on a recumbant bike for 40 minutes 4 times a week.
When Cliff is really ready, he will stop sabotaging his success and really get to work.

sab·o·tage (sb-täzh) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "sabotaging" [P]
n.


2. Treacherous action to defeat or hinder a cause or an endeavor; deliberate subversion.


God Bless, J

 

[Spicy McHaggis]

Fitmom,

"Cliff" in this thread, refers to the "Clif's notes" or "condensed" version. The friend's name is Doug.

Yes, Doug needs to lose weight, but the only way he's going to do this is to stick with what works for his body type, and that's big-guy lifting style, not cardio. At least in the beginning stages.

Gaining muscle will increase his fat burn, and when he starts gaining muscle, that MAY provide the incentive and the desire to force himself through the cardio.

I read and respect all your posts in here (I was actually hoping that you and tuffguy would respond before I even typed this up), and I'm in complete agreement with you. But even though we're all right about the cardio, this is the way he's going. All the cardio advice is valid, but useless if he doesn't do it.

You're right, he has to do the cardio, and when he's made that choice, he will. But until then, we're going with what he will do, and maximizing the benefits of that. Because this is way better than the nothing he's going to do if I lay out a beautiful diet and aerobic workout.

The next phase of this plan though, is to roll in one minute intervals on the punching bag, alternating between me and then him, switching back and forth. That's cardio that will actually happen, and I'll start with small doses.

But this thread is about Squats and leg exercises for someone with knee pain.

The advice you and tuffguy, plus my boss here at work has me headed in the direction of no weight, single leg, high rep "step ups" on the basement stairs, and we'll slowly add in dumbells to increase the total weight (body plus dumbells) and, assuming he loses weight, compensate for the weight lost in body by adding weight in equipment. We'll take it easy on the legs, but he's still going to be lifting on the upper body side of the workout. I mean, even when he does gain muscle mass, it's not going to be more than 5-8 lbs in a month, and that will be offset by lost fat, so I think his knees can be kept safe while they're being used.

The human body is the only machine that gets better the more you use it.

thanks guys!

 

[Tuffguy]

Oh,,, have him supplement some Twinlab Joint fuel. Thats very good for joint pain. He will need to stay on it for a few months to feel results.

 

[Onesiphorus]

Whether doing body weight squats or with serious weight, there are a few tips to saving the knees. First and foremost is:

Never extend the knees past the toes when squatting.

I see too many people start the squat movement with their knees. This is totally incorrect. The squat starts with the hips and rear end. Having the knees travel out over the toes creates tremendous shearing force on the joints. Watch Doug closely and make sure his knees remain stable and do not protrude past his toes. The same technique holds true for lunges.

Another trick for lifters with bad knees is to pre-exhaust the muscles. The idea is to use a safe, isolation movement to tax the muscles and then hit the muscle with a compound movement. The muscles can't handle as much weight, so you're using less poundage (a good thing when squatting with bad knees). An example: Do sets of leg extension with moderate weight for a couple of sets. Then do squats. Lower the weight used, of course, on the squat.

Warm-up will be critical for a lifter with bad knees. Lite cardio would be good, but that does not appear to be an option here. You need to get the joint moving without heavy force. I do not recommend stretching before leg exercises (or any weight training)... it will only cause injuries.

The program you have Doug on is the exact opposite most trainers would recommend, but you already know that. I suppose the fact that you have him lifting at all is better than a proper regiment. You can build cardio into Doug's workouts by keeping the reps high and the rest period short (30-60 seconds) between sets (when you get to adding sets). Most people do not realize how much the heart has to pump during a nice weight training session.

 

[2Bhumble]

I'm in agreement that leg exercise is beneficial to any strength program especially good old barbell squats. However, I would have your friend start with safe exercises. Even if he's squatting with a broom stick to begin with. If it hurts why risk it? I know he wants to do a power lifting type program but if he's new to the weight game he's got to start light to get his form down - especially for squats. Sure he's big but that doesn't mean he's only wired for power lifting movements. I weigh 160 and I sometimes do heavy low rep exercises and trust me I'm not built like a power lifter. I'm in agreement with fitmom as far as getting the cardio in. No, he shouldn't start with distance running but when the pounds start shedding he may start to enjoy an occasional jog or whatever. Walking is excellent exercise and biking is easy on the knees. Whatever you do, start him easy. It will keep him motivated and most likely injury free. Have him do a basic full body weight routine with compound movements - I'd steer clear of too many isolation movements for now. Your a good friend to him and hopefully you can keep him motivated.

My Clif notes:
Weights: 2-3 times per week - full body - compound movements - not to failure (but close) - progress with poundages - 3 sets of 8-12 reps
Cardio: 30-40 minutes - 4 per week - don't push too hard - it's OK to walk
Diet: Get healthy nutritious calories - 5-6 small meals per day - water water water
Sleep: Get plenty

 

[2Bhumble]

...But this thread is about Squats and leg exercises for someone with knee pain...

Oh ya, he could do ball squats. Get an exercise ball and lean against the ball so it's against the lower back (the ball is against the wall). Squat down to parallel - count to 3 - then squat back up. After 20 reps he'll feel alive. When he can get 100 or more reps he'll probably throw the ball at you

Anyway, this is a very knee friendly effective exercise.

God bless.

 

[izarya]

** long post, clif's at bottom**

Hey guys,

I’m lifting with a friend of mine now.


He’s a big dude. There’s a lot of excess fat to get rid of, but the plus side of being a big guy is carrying all that weight for all those years develops some pretty solid calve muscles. I only write that because I have skinny legs and I’m jealous.

Anywho, he’s about 310 lbs, and around 6ft tall.

We’ve been talking a bit about attitude, and what’s really going to work for this guy to lose fat.

Running, not going to happen. Swimming’s out too. Pretty much all cardio other than light walking is just not going to happen. This guy’s in the Clydesdale class. One on hand, it’s tough for him to do cardio, he’s just not built for endurance. On the other hand, he’s got the body type for heavy lifting or being a defensive lineman. The path of least resistance, or at least the path of logical progress is to go with what works, and lift. Maximize what his body type is geared for instead of forcing the big guy to run like a Kenyan messenger.

What I’ve been explaining to him is if he just ignores “body weight” and concentrates on “body fat”, he can lose the fat by lifting weights (gain muscle, burn calories, gain more muscle, burn more calories, etc). So we’re lifting, heavy lifting (working our way into it) twice a week. We’re going with one rep sets to failure. Starting with isolation exercises like triceps presses, curls, hamstring curls, extensions, side raises and calve raises. Stuff like that to hit the main beach muscles and get them worn down.

After that we move to compound exercises. Dead lift, row, military press, squat, pull downs and bench press on a slight incline.

The reason we’re doing it this way is to get past the mental block of “how much lifting sucks, you mean I have to do that 2 more times?!?!”. Me, I like the pain and the grinding through the last set. Him, not so much. But if it’s one exercise, one set, just go until you can and then it’s done, that’s something he can stick with. One task with an end in sight then move on to something else.

Okay now the problem we’re coming too is the dead lifts and squats. While being a big guy for a decade or so does built impressive calf muscles, it also puts a lot of pressure on his knees, and he knees are hurting and popping when he goes into a squat.

Knees and lower back are the two things I would never mess around with or push too hard. Once you hurt your back, like, really hurt your back, it’s hurt for a long time. And from what I’ve seen, the people that have knee surgery or back surgery never get back to where they were or how they felt before the surgery.

Long story short, my buddy’s a big guy, I’m trying to help him and he agreed to a heavy lifting/power lifting type program because that’s what works for him, his body type, and his mental approach.

How do we get squats and stuff in there without him blowing out his knee? So far the only thing I’m thinking is to start with no weight, just the 300 lb frame, and slowly add 10-20 pounds here and there.

Problem is, if you’re lifting for muscle mass and NOT doing squats, you’re missing a hug piece of the puzzle.


CLIFS:
Friend is a big boy
Heavy lifting routine
How do we do squats and stuff without wrecking his knees?

I would suggest having him do leg extensions and hamstring curls, maybe leg presses (pushing through the heels) if it's not too uncomfortable. Have him do a couple of sets of the leg extensions, and curls with quick, limited range of motion reps. This will strengthen the tendons on the patella, thus strengthening and stabilizing the knee. Then move eventually into fuller range of motion movements.

I think that movements involving the larger muscle groups should come first, begin with legs for full body work-outs.

 

[fitmom]

** l



knees are hurting and popping when he goes into a squat.




This info. right here is enough to qualify to see a physiotherapist. Any squatting is a BAD choice. Leg extensions on a leg extension machine are the MOST dangerous. Closed chains exercises are the safest, such as modified squats, but I won't even suggest any because if this were my client I would have to get a physician and physiotherapist permission to train him.
Clif, this is an accident waiting to happen. You can either do this right, or wait untill you are ready.
Enough said, I will pray that Clif is ready to make the right choices. Some times people are just not ready.
God Bless, J

 

[Spicy McHaggis]

This info. right here is enough to qualify to see a physiotherapist. Any squatting is a BAD choice. Leg extensions on a leg extension machine are the MOST dangerous. Closed chains exercises are the safest, such as modified squats, but I won't even suggest any because if this were my client I would have to get a physician and physiotherapist permission to train him.
Clif, this is an accident waiting to happen. You can either do this right, or wait untill you are ready.
Enough said, I will pray that Clif is ready to make the right choices. Some times people are just not ready.
God Bless, J

You're not even reading the thread anymore are you?

Unless you're praying for someone else,

1. His name is NOT CLIF.
2. Squats have been removed from the routine.

 

[BIGMIKE]

** long post, clif's at bottom**

Hey guys,

I’m lifting with a friend of mine now.


He’s a big dude. There’s a lot of excess fat to get rid of, but the plus side of being a big guy is carrying all that weight for all those years develops some pretty solid calve muscles. I only write that because I have skinny legs and I’m jealous.

Anywho, he’s about 310 lbs, and around 6ft tall.

We’ve been talking a bit about attitude, and what’s really going to work for this guy to lose fat.

Running, not going to happen. Swimming’s out too. Pretty much all cardio other than light walking is just not going to happen. This guy’s in the Clydesdale class. One on hand, it’s tough for him to do cardio, he’s just not built for endurance. On the other hand, he’s got the body type for heavy lifting or being a defensive lineman. The path of least resistance, or at least the path of logical progress is to go with what works, and lift. Maximize what his body type is geared for instead of forcing the big guy to run like a Kenyan messenger.

What I’ve been explaining to him is if he just ignores “body weight” and concentrates on “body fat”, he can lose the fat by lifting weights (gain muscle, burn calories, gain more muscle, burn more calories, etc). So we’re lifting, heavy lifting (working our way into it) twice a week. We’re going with one rep sets to failure. Starting with isolation exercises like triceps presses, curls, hamstring curls, extensions, side raises and calve raises. Stuff like that to hit the main beach muscles and get them worn down.

After that we move to compound exercises. Dead lift, row, military press, squat, pull downs and bench press on a slight incline.

The reason we’re doing it this way is to get past the mental block of “how much lifting sucks, you mean I have to do that 2 more times?!?!”. Me, I like the pain and the grinding through the last set. Him, not so much. But if it’s one exercise, one set, just go until you can and then it’s done, that’s something he can stick with. One task with an end in sight then move on to something else.

Okay now the problem we’re coming too is the dead lifts and squats. While being a big guy for a decade or so does built impressive calf muscles, it also puts a lot of pressure on his knees, and he knees are hurting and popping when he goes into a squat.

Knees and lower back are the two things I would never mess around with or push too hard. Once you hurt your back, like, really hurt your back, it’s hurt for a long time. And from what I’ve seen, the people that have knee surgery or back surgery never get back to where they were or how they felt before the surgery.

Long story short, my buddy’s a big guy, I’m trying to help him and he agreed to a heavy lifting/power lifting type program because that’s what works for him, his body type, and his mental approach.

How do we get squats and stuff in there without him blowing out his knee? So far the only thing I’m thinking is to start with no weight, just the 300 lb frame, and slowly add 10-20 pounds here and there.

Problem is, if you’re lifting for muscle mass and NOT doing squats, you’re missing a hug piece of the puzzle.


CLIFS:
Friend is a big boy
Heavy lifting routine
How do we do squats and stuff without wrecking his knees?

Hey I hear you (well see)what ur saying.......dont forget that nutrition is 85-90% of the battle!!!! This is VERY VERY important. I used to manage a personal training company and one our most dramatic changes was a female that had about 100lbs to lose!! As guys we naturaly carry more muscle, I suggest taking a look at ur buddies nutrition, sometimes people who are over wait DONT EAT ENOUGH.... yet they eat the wrong things. Also would not recomend HEAVY training right now. Active rest is an awsome way to shed LBS kind of creates a cardio type workout while weight training!! Tell ur buddy to hang in there the first 30 days of being consistant is the hardest!!!!

 

[BIGMIKE]

opps WEIGHT goodthing we weren't talking about spelling!!!!!!!!

 

[BIGMIKE]

LOL CLIFS: notes iklepac13 vbmenu_register("postmenu_27978973", true); clever looks like some didn't get that EH

 

[Big Rob]

Excellent article on knees.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1127149

 

[Echoespeak006]

You're not even reading the thread anymore are you?

Unless you're praying for someone else,

1. His name is NOT CLIF.
2. Squats have been removed from the routine.

.

 

[fitmom]

You're not even reading the thread anymore are you?

Unless you're praying for someone else,

1. His name is NOT CLIF.
2. Squats have been removed from the routine.

I am reading the thread, and all the others. People are still suggesting squats and leg extensions. Yes, I admit, I lost track of who we are talking about by name DOUG??, but I know it is an overweight, deconditioned male who refuses to do cardio and is being trained by a non professional who just wants to see whomever it is we are talking about strengthen his knees. The patellar tendon was mentioned. This friend is very committed to helping.
In my defense, I am very busy, so I am trying to share my professional opinion. This guys knees are subluxing, are they not?

If a person is overweight, so much so that his joints, often knees, POP or sublux under the stress of his own weight, and then added weight/resistance, whether it is squatting or any knee exercise, then WHY would he strength train? Muscle weighs more than fat. Now he is keeping his body fat and adding muscle. MORE strain on his knees.

Cardio burns fat. It is that simple, that is not my opinion, that is research based.

He or whomever, needs to see a Dr. and a physiotherapist, he needs to eat properly and lose some body fat, then start implemeting a resistance program.

Why cardio? here are some reasons:
* Aid in preventing heart attacks due to clogged arteries in obese individuals. Cardio strengthens the heart and may extend your life span!

* Decreases depression and anxiety.

* Show off the muscles, definition, and body that you've worked so hard to create. (Many times people possess or build amazing muscle tone, but cannot show it off due to an excessive underlying layer of fat resting beneath the skin and on top of the muscle!)

* Prevents excessive blood pressures and lowers your resting heart rate.

* Increases aerobic work capacity allowing you to do more work with less strain on your heart.

* Increase overall function, performance and well-being of your life.

* Enhances blood flow to working muscles, which in turn, delivers more nutrients for optimal performance and growth.

* Increases overall heart function.


I do get clients who I send to the Dr. and physiotherapist before I can work with them.

I am sorry if my additon to this thread is upsetting.

I have said all that I can say, and I do apologize for my confusion over Clif or Clif notes Doug etc.

 

[Spicy McHaggis]

Weight training does all those things too. You could re-write your post and replace "cardio" with "weightlifting" and it would be equally true. The only difference being that the weightlifting routine will actually happen, so I'm trying to do it as best I can, so we dropped the squats in favor of step ups.

It's either that or just let the guy get fatter.

 

[fitmom]

Weight training does all those things too. You could re-write your post and replace "cardio" with "weightlifting" and it would be equally true. The only difference being that the weightlifting routine will actually happen, so I'm trying to do it as best I can, so we dropped the squats in favor of step ups.

It's either that or just let the guy get fatter.

All I can say is that you REALLY need to do a lot of research. You are misinformed, I would never give out false information. The guy, Doug, has choices, you are not his keeper. When he is ready, he will do ALL the required lifestyle changes, if he has not died from a heart attack. PLEASE study up on obesity and all the related health problems. Call your local Heart and Stroke Foundation and ask them. I am giving you excellent, accurate and up to date information. I do this EVERY day, I see people like this. I lose (some but not many) clients who are just not ready for the changes. You need to Let Go and Let God. I have helped many people lose weight, and never the way you are training this Doug. You may be a risk to Dougs health. if you want tolearn, really want to learn, I can give you links, suggest books, in the mean time, PLEASE call the HEART and STROKE Foundation or even the DIABETES ASSOC. any of these organizations could send you in the right direction. Doug needs a true professional, starting with his family physician. You need to let Doug live his own life and support him in his journey to wellness.

You cannot exchange weight lifting and cardio in my post and get the same results. There is no valid research to support that.

God Bless you, I hope youmake the right choices, J

 

[2Bhumble]

All I can say is that you REALLY need to do a lot of research. You are misinformed, I would never give out false information. The guy, Doug, has choices, you are not his keeper. When he is ready, he will do ALL the required lifestyle changes, if he has not died from a heart attack. PLEASE study up on obesity and all the related health problems. Call your local Heart and Stroke Foundation and ask them. I am giving you excellent, accurate and up to date information. I do this EVERY day, I see people like this. I lose (some but not many) clients who are just not ready for the changes. You need to Let Go and Let God. I have helped many people lose weight, and never the way you are training this Doug. You may be a risk to Dougs health. if you want tolearn, really want to learn, I can give you links, suggest books, in the mean time, PLEASE call the HEART and STROKE Foundation or even the DIABETES ASSOC. any of these organizations could send you in the right direction. Doug needs a true professional, starting with his family physician. You need to let Doug live his own life and support him in his journey to wellness.

You cannot exchange weight lifting and cardio in my post and get the same results. There is no valid research to support that.

God Bless you, I hope youmake the right choices, J

Words of wisdom - pay attention...
Excellent!!!