Superiority Complex.

[Livindesert]

...it's speaking of the Northern Kingdom, not gentiles. Granted, I'd have to start talking about context again, but the entire thing in Hosea is that the Northern Kingdom is unfaithful to God and will be carried away. His children are named, get this, "Not my loved one" and "Not my people". This is a great prophecy about the restoration of the Northern Kingdom, which has not occurred.

I am just lurking but I love reading your posts since I have not heard the Jewish interpitations of these passages. Keep up the good work

 

[b&wpac4]

I am just lurking but I love reading your posts since I have not heard the Jewish interpitations of these passages. Keep up the good work

And just to show where this idea comes from look to Hosea 1:

6 Gomer conceived again and gave birth to a daughter. Then the LORD said to Hosea, "Call her Lo-Ruhamah, for I will no longer show love to the house of Israel, that I should at all forgive them. 7 Yet I will show love to the house of Judah; and I will save them—not by bow, sword or battle, or by horses and horsemen, but by the LORD their God."
8 After she had weaned Lo-Ruhamah, Gomer had another son. 9 Then the LORD said, "Call him Lo-Ammi, for you are not my people, and I am not your God.

 

[ephraimanesti]

...it's speaking of the Northern Kingdom, not gentiles. Granted, I'd have to start talking about context again, but the entire thing in Hosea is that the Northern Kingdom is unfaithful to God and will be carried away. His children are named, get this, "Not my loved one" and "Not my people". This is a great prophecy about the restoration of the Northern Kingdom, which has not occurred.

MY BROTHER,

Thank you--i learned something today.

Anyway, i think you will admit that the idea--that the Gentiles were to be welcomed into God's Kingdom through the auspices of Messiah, is valid--(even if you don't accept Jesus as the Messiah). For example,

Isaiah 42:1-9 (NIV)
1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on Him and He will bring justice to the nations [Gentiles].
2 He will not shout or cry out, or raise His voice in the streets.
3 A bruised reed He will not break, and a smoldering wick He will not snuff out. In faithfulness He will bring forth justice;
4 He will not falter or be discouraged till He establishes justice on earth. In His law the islands will put their hope."
5 This is what God the LORD says-- He who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it:
6 "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles,
7 to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.
8 "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.
9 See, the former things have taken place, and new things I declare; before they spring into being I announce them to you."

 

[b&wpac4]

Anyway, i think you will admit that the idea--that the Gentiles were to be welcomed into God's Kingdom through the auspices of Messiah, is valid--(even if you don't accept Jesus as the Messiah). For example,

No, the Servant of God in Isaiah is always identified as Israel. It is through the nation of Israel that this will happen. The messiah is not the Servant of God in Isaiah.

 

[b&wpac4]

and because I like backing up what I say with proof:

Isaiah 41:8-9
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, "You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off."
Isaiah 44:1
But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen!
Isaiah 44:21
Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.
Isaiah 45:4
For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I called you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.
Isaiah 48:20
Go out from Babylon, flee from Chaldea, declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim it, send it out to the end of the earth; say, "The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!"
Isaiah 49:3
And he said to me, "You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified."

 

[Josiah14]

So you believe that if the Jews had just accepted Jesus in the first place then all the Non-Jews would be ignored by God and sent to hell???

No. Paul writes about this somewhere, though, I cant just pull locations of verses off the top of my head (I never DID go to seminary).

Anyway, if the Jews had accepted Jesus, then Salvation for the Gentiles would have somehow come through the Jewish people, for they were supposed to be a 'light unto the nations'. The Jews were supposed to be a blessing to the nations, but they proved themselves unwilling to be so.

As it happened, though, and as was prophesied, the Jews rejected their Messiah, so, as it is, we are saved now by the Jews in that Jesus is a Jew from the line of David, and it is by being grafted in, as by adoption, as members of His lineage that we find salvation.

 

[b&wpac4]

No. Paul writes about this somewhere, though, I cant just pull locations of verses off the top of my head (I never DID go to seminary).

Anyway, if the Jews had accepted Jesus, then Salvation for the Gentiles would have somehow come through the Jewish people, for they were supposed to be a 'light unto the nations'. The Jews were supposed to be a blessing to the nations, but they proved themselves unwilling to be so.

As it happened, though, and as was prophesied, the Jews rejected their Messiah, so, as it is, we are saved now by the Jews in that Jesus is a Jew from the line of David, and it is by being grafted in, as by adoption, as members of His lineage that we find salvation.

Are you thinking of Romans 11?

 

[Josiah14]

No, the Servant of God in Isaiah is always identified as Israel. It is through the nation of Israel that this will happen. The messiah is not the Servant of God in Isaiah.

So, then, what happens when Israel murders his own Messiah??

Jesus met all the criteria for the Messiah, and His teachings came from the Spirit of the Law, as one understanding their purpose and meaning. Yet, He was rejected. No prophet is accepted in his own country.

 

[ephraimanesti]

No, the Servant of God in Isaiah is always identified as Israel. It is through the nation of Israel that this will happen. The messiah is not the Servant of God in Isaiah.

MY BROTHER,

No, this time you are incorrect. The passages cited would not make sense were it referring to a Nation instead of a Person. The inability of the Jews to understand the portents of the Messiah in their Scriptures, is why they did not recognize Him and crucified Him when He arrived.

Most of the "Servant" descriptive passages in Isaiah refer to the Messiah. For example, Isaiah 9:2, 7; 11:10; 49;1-6; 52: 14-15; Chapter 53; etc.

ephraim

 

[b&wpac4]

So, then, what happens when Israel murders his own Messiah??

Jesus met all the criteria for the Messiah, and His teachings came from the Spirit of the Law, as one understanding their purpose and meaning. Yet, He was rejected. No prophet is accepted in his own country.

Bold statement.

I will not address the first statement, because I don't think such an act is possible and if anybody dies before fulfilling the messianic task, they are not the messiah.

As to the second statement... no, he did not meet the criteria to be the messiah. He didn't accomplish the prophecies. You even agree with this since you say his second coming will be the part where universal peace and all occurs.

 

[b&wpac4]

No, this time you are incorrect. The passages cited would not make sense were it referring to a Nation instead of a Person. The inability of the Jews to understand the portents of the Messiah in their Scriptures, is why they did not recognize Him and crucified Him when He arrived.

Most of the "Servant" descriptive passages in Isaiah refer to the Messiah. For example, Isaiah 9:2, 7; 11:10; 49;1-6; 52: 14-15; Chapter 53; etc.

Why wouldn't they make sense if speaking about a nation? You cannot simply make this claim and have no evidence for it. I gave you the passages where the servant is clearly identified by Isaiah. Where are your passages to show me I am incorrect?

 

[Josiah14]

Are you thinking of Romans 11?

YES! Thats exactly it! Thank you!

The key verses from all this are:

"11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? "

Excerpt from Romans 11.


I cannot always pull these verses out because, as I dont have much time to read, I listen to the Bible on CD when I'm in the car. I don't learn where the Scriptures are, but I learn WHAT they are.

 

[b&wpac4]

YES! Thats exactly it! Thank you!

No problem. Paul is an interesting writer, even if I disagree with him. Certainly didn't lack for zeal.

 

[ephraimanesti]

and because I like backing up what I say with proof:

Isaiah 41:8-9
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, "You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off."
Isaiah 44:1
But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen!
Isaiah 44:21
Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.
Isaiah 45:4
For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I called you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.
Isaiah 48:20
Go out from Babylon, flee from Chaldea, declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim it, send it out to the end of the earth; say, "The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!"
Isaiah 49:3
And he said to me, "You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified."

MY BROTHER,

i think you have things pretty well tangled up and are confusing yourself. For example, read CAREFULLY Isaiah 49:5-7.

"And now the Lord says--He who formed me in the womb to be His servant to bring Jacob back to Him and gather Israel to Himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord and my God has been my strength--He says, 'It is too small a thing for you to be my Servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.' "

How can the Servant BE Israel and bring itself back to the Lord? i think perhaps you are trying too hard to escape the obvious. The Scribes and Pharisees 2000 years ago made the same mistake with disastrous results.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[Josiah14]

No problem. Paul is an interesting writer, even if I disagree with him. Certainly didn't lack for zeal.

If you like Paul, then you should read the Homilies of St. John Chrysostom on Romans. They are available free online ccel.org. I know you will probably disagree, but if you want to understand a bit more about Christianity, particularly Eastern Orthodox Christianity, St. John Chrysostom is a great writer. He is so respected in our Church that he became known as 'John the Golden Tongued'. It is said that St. Paul spoke into his ear while he was writing, and so his ear turned to gold after he died.

 

[ephraimanesti]

No problem. Paul is an interesting writer, even if I disagree with him. Certainly didn't lack for zeal.

Jews are like that!

ephraim

 

[ephraimanesti]

If you like Paul, then you should read the Homilies of St. John Chrysostom on Romans. They are available free online ccel.org. I know you will probably disagree, but if you want to understand a bit more about Christianity, particularly Eastern Orthodox Christianity, St. John Chrysostom is a great writer. He is so respected in our Church that he became known as 'John the Golden Tongued'. It is said that St. Paul spoke into his ear while he was writing, and so his ear turned to gold after he died.

Have you read St. John's ON WEALTH AND POVERTY? What a glorious book!

ephraim

 

[Josiah14]

MY BROTHER,

i think you have things pretty well tangled up and are confusing yourself. For example, read CAREFULLY Isaiah 49:5-7.

"And now the Lord says--He who formed me in the womb to be His servant to bring Jacob back to Him and gather Israel to Himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord and my God has been my strength--He says, 'It is too small a thing for you to be my Servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.' "

How can the Servant BE Israel and bring itself back to the Lord? i think perhaps you are trying too hard to escape the obvious. The Scribes and Pharisees 2000 years ago made the same mistake with disastrous results.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

I think I'll let you take this, brother. I dont know as much about defending OT prophesy. Most of my knowledge comes from the liturgy, the psalms, and the Gospels.

 

[Josiah14]

Have you read St. John's ON WEALTH AND POVERTY? What a glorious book!

ephraim

I havent, but I read a bit from 'On Living Simply' every day. I am also reading Chrysostom's book on marriage.

 

[b&wpac4]

How can the Servant BE Israel and bring itself back to the Lord? i think perhaps you are trying too hard to escape the obvious. The Scribes and Pharisees 2000 years ago made the same mistake with disastrous results.

I think you are trying too hard to make it Jesus.

49:3, just two verses prior, again identifies the servant. As clear as possible. How many times would Isaiah have to say it for you to see it? He's repeating it over and over again.