Superiority Complex.

[Josiah14]

In the Hebrew, there is only one word which is usually translated image. What you defined as image is what I would agree with. Likeness.. not so much.

The difference here is that Christians believe they need God's help to do good.

Assuming, you give an accurate representation of Jewish beliefs, the Jews believe they can do good on their own strength, apart from God.

Thats what I gather.

 

[b&wpac4]

Assuming, you give an accurate representation of Jewish beliefs, the Jews believe they can do good on their own strength, apart from God.

Well, we try to do what God told us to do. I wouldn't say it is without His help, because He gave the way to be good.

 

[ephraimanesti]

In the Hebrew, there is only one word which is usually translated image. What you defined as image is what I would agree with. Likeness.. not so much.

MY BROTHER,

There are two things mentioned--"Image" AND "Likeness." Are you lumping them together or ignoring one of them?

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[b&wpac4]

There are two things mentioned--"Image" AND "Likeness." Are you lumping them together or ignoring one of them?

Ah, found it.

Yeah, I'm putting them together.

 

[Josiah14]

In the Hebrew, there is only one word which is usually translated image. What you defined as image is what I would agree with. Likeness.. not so much.

Well, if we weren't created to be in the likeness of God, then why bother struggling to be righteous?? If image is enough, then there's nothing to strive for and no need for repentance and continual striving to carry out the commandments. We're already in God's image, so, why is all this extra stuff, then, commanded by God? If we are not to be in God's likeness, and if the image and likeness of God is not marred in man through his sin, then, why do we die as a result of sin? Is it just God taking vengeance on us?

I suspect there's a deeper connotation to the Hebrew word that would lead one to conclude it means more than merely image, as it was defined by Ephraimanesti.

 

[b&wpac4]

Well, if we weren't created to be in the likeness of God, then why bother struggling to be righteous?? If image is enough, then there's nothing to strive for and no need for repentance and continual striving to carry out the commandments. We're already in God's image, so, why is all this extra stuff stuff, then, commanded by God? We are not to be in God's likeness, and if the image and likeness of God is not marred in man through his sin, then, why do we die as a result of sin? Is it just God taking vengeance on us?

I suspect there's a deeper connotation to the Hebrew word that would lead one to conclude it means more than merely image, as it was defined by Ephraimanesti.

From Rashi's commentary:

in our image: in our form.

after our likeness: to understand and to discern.

It appears that we, again, have a situation where our definitions are different. I assume what you are stating is the standard EO ideas?

 

[Josiah14]

Well, we try to do what God told us to do. I wouldn't say it is without His help, because He gave the way to be good.

Ok, ltet me then clarify. What I meant was...

Practitioners of Judaism would say they have the strength on their own to follow the commandments of God, which are given by God, and thereby avoid sin.

Practitioners of Christianity would say that, in order to carry out the commandments of God, you must have the Divine Energy of God working in you and through you to give you the strength to be righteous. In addition, we say that the person must also cooperate with the Divine Energy of God (which Christians call the Grace of God), as God respects our free will.

 

[b&wpac4]

Practitioners of Judaism would say they have the strength on their own to follow the commandments of God, which are given by God, and thereby avoid sin.

God seems to be suggesting this in Deut 30 and in Genesis where Cain is told that he can overcome sin.

 

[Josiah14]

From Rashi's commentary:

in our image: in our form.

after our likeness: to understand and to discern.

It appears that we, again, have a situation where our definitions are different. I assume what you are stating is the standard EO ideas?

Well, I was trying to go based on the definitions I saw posted in the thread. Maybe I misunderstood.

I, personally, have never tried to separate the meanings of image and likeness. I had always interpreted the two together as meaning that man was created to be a reflection of God in how he interacts with creation. In other words, if God freely chooses, then man has free choice; if God is loving, then man is loving; if God is humble, then man is humble; if God is compassionate, then man is compassionate. It even goes so far as to say man is to lord over creation and order it, just as God is Lord of all. The similarity stops only where God is unbounded by creation, while man, as a creature, is bounded - and further, while God is supreme in authority over all beings, man is still under God.

Thats my understanding. I hope it is in line with the EO view, but, if it is not, I hope someone here can correct me.

 

[b&wpac4]

I, personally, have never tried to separate the meanings of image and likeness. I had always interpreted the two together as meaning that man was created to be a reflection of God in how he interacts with creation. In other words, if God freely chooses, then man has free choice; if God is loving, then man is loving; if God is humble, then man is humble; if God is compassionate, then man is compassionate. It even goes so far as to say man is to lord over creation and order it, just as God is Lord of all. The similarity stops only where God is unbounded by creation, while man, as a creature, is bounded - and further, while God is supreme in authority over all beings, man is still under God.

I would say that your definition and mine are very close then.

 

[Josiah14]

God seems to be suggesting this in Deut 30 and in Genesis where Cain is told that he can overcome sin.

Deut 30 says that man has the power to turn to God, but, then, it is God who will turn your captivity. In other words, man calls upon God, and then God releases you from the captivity of sinful desires.

vs. 30:6 "And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

In the old testament, it was promised to the Jews that, if they turned to God, God would not only 'circumcise their hearts', but also bring their people out of bondage from the surrounding nations and into the Holy Land of Isreal.

However, today, since the Jews did not follow God, they have remained scattered, as God said would happen. Israel now is the Church, which shall be gathered and brought to the promised land, the New Jerusalem, when Christ returns to judge the entire world. Those who keep the commandments of God while in exile in this earthly life among the nations who now control the world will inherit the Eternal Kingdom when Christ returns to dash the nations and establish Himself as King over all the earth. That is the Christian understanding of Deuteronomy 30 in combination with the New Testament writings.

As far as Cain goes, if Cain had repented, God would have rendered him a participant in His righteousness and given him the strength to overcome sin. As it stands, Cain despaired over himself and used that despair to justify his continuation in sin, for he told God that his punishment was too great for him to bear.

 

[Josiah14]

I would say that your definition and mine are very close then.

If this is true, then where sin abides, the image and likeness of God is lost.

If God is loving, and I lust, then I have failed to be, in that moment, in the image and likeness of God.

Christians say that, once the image is marred, that the inclination to repeat the same sort of sin remains there, though it can be resisted. Only God can repair this damage done to the soul, though man may force himself to correct his actions against his own inclinations. The Christian message is that God has mercy on those who struggle and heals their souls.

"As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly." Proverbs 26:11

 

[b&wpac4]

If the promises from God that He would never abandon us are not binding how do you know you won't be or haven't already been replaced as well?

 

[ephraimanesti]

Well, I was trying to go based on the definitions I saw posted in the thread. Maybe I misunderstood.

I, personally, have never tried to separate the meanings of image and likeness. I had always interpreted the two together as meaning that man was created to be a reflection of God in how he interacts with creation. In other words, if God freely chooses, then man has free choice; if God is loving, then man is loving; if God is humble, then man is humble; if God is compassionate, then man is compassionate. It even goes so far as to say man is to lord over creation and order it, just as God is Lord of all. The similarity stops only where God is unbounded by creation, while man, as a creature, is bounded - and further, while God is supreme in authority over all beings, man is still under God.

Thats my understanding. I hope it is in line with the EO view, but, if it is not, I hope someone here can correct me.

MY BROTHER,

Google "What is the difference between image and likeness".

ephraim

 

[Josiah14]

If the promises from God that He would never abandon us are not binding how do you know you won't be or haven't already been replaced as well?

You haven't been replaced, but the promise has been expanded to all nations. If you want to inherit the kingdom, you are free to repent and follow Christ to the Cross to crucify your human will and sinful desires at any time.

It wasn't God who abandoned the Jews, but the Jews who abandoned God. After all, it was the Jewish people with the leaders of the synogogues that had Christ crucified.

 

[b&wpac4]

You haven't been replaced, but the promise has been expanded to all nations. If you want to inherit the kingdom, you are free to repent and follow Christ to the Cross to crucify your human will and sinful desires at any time.

If you are wrong then I would be a Jew guilty of idolatry. That is scary and would need to be convinced of the claims about Jesus. Nobody has been able to convince me yet.

 

[ephraimanesti]

The world outside my little house is full of potential for good or evil. I don't care if you see it as all bad and just give up hope, I won't. If we worked, we could make the world a better place for all mankind.

MY BROTHER,

Is not the "Great and dreadful day of the Lord" already on the schedule? Somehow i don't think God shares your positive outlook.

Show me.

Well, you start with the murder of Abel by his brother Cain in Genesis 4 and continue through the Old Testament to Malachi 4 to the promised, "Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace."

Of course I make bad choices and of course I have weaknesses. However, I work at overcoming those problems, as God told us to do.

i wish you well. If you are able to pull it off, you will be the first.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[razeontherock]

Just wanting to point out on p 55 there's some brilliant dialogue! The things I'd been trying to say from the beginning of this thread are stated there plainly by my EO brethren.

Originally Posted by ephraimanesti:
"Personally, i must honestly confess that without the Power and Guidance of God's indwelling Holy Spirit, i would not even be potty-trained yet--spiritually speaking. i am curious as to how you seem to be managing so well on your own."

Because we are never told we need a helper to do what is good. God says directly that we can learn to do what is good and reject the evil. He says it as plainly as possible. It's about recognizing when we do wrong, repenting of that behavior, and striving each day to do better than the day before.

Deut 30:
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?'
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?'
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

I know you said it B&W, I just can't find where. In light of this exchange, why do you think it is that Rabbis discourage converting to Judaism as being unnecessary for eternal Salvation and in fact making it harder? (Sounds an awful lot like what I've been saying all along about benefiting from a New Covenant)

 

[ephraimanesti]

If you are wrong then I would be a Jew guilty of idolatry. That is scary and would need to be convinced of the claims about Jesus. Nobody has been able to convince me yet.

MY BROTHER,

Have you asked Jesus--He sure was persuasive when i requested His aid in sorting through the fog and arriving at the truth!

ephraim

 

[Josiah14]

You haven't been replaced, but the promise has been expanded to all nations. If you want to inherit the kingdom, you are free to repent and follow Christ to the Cross to crucify your human will and sinful desires at any time.

It wasn't God who abandoned the Jews, but the Jews who abandoned God. After all, it was the Jewish people with the leaders of the synogogues that had Christ crucified.

I'd like to suppliment this post with the fact that, as an Orthodox Christian, I believe I must uphold my end of the covenant and repent of my sins through this whole life. If I do not live a life of repentance, if I do not continually crucify my sinful desires, then I will find myself in Hell, locked outside of the Heavenly Jerusalem, in the age to come.

It may even be that some (or many) outside the Church, who keep God's law, will enter into Heaven before me, if I enter at all. Fact is, within the Church, one can be sure everything he needs to find salvation is there. Outside the Church, one may not have all the spiritual 'weapons', and it may be more difficult to find salvation, even though it may not be impossible.

In other words, we simply do not know if salvation can be found outside the Church, but we know it is possible within the Church for sure.

but my main point in posting this was to show that I do not presume to be saved,, but I certainly hope that I am cooperating with God in the process of salvation.