Superiority Complex.

[Catherineanne]

That's a valid question.

It's gotta be something more than the promise of becoming the next meme incubator.

I sometimes think of the Gospel as a dance that is passing by. One of those intricate grape-vine things. If it's compelling, one allows one's hand to be taken. If not, one allows it to pass. ...

So, what is going to make me want to take a hand as the dance passes by? It's not going to be the mere quoting of a verse of scripture.

Whoops. Sorry. Rant over.

Excellent points.

Meanwhile, you don't need to join anyone else's dance; yours is just fine.

 

[Greg1234]

I sometimes think of the Gospel as a dance that is passing by. One of those intricate grape-vine things. If it's compelling, one allows one's hand to be taken. If not, one allows it to pass.

Darwinism does not forsake this basic stance. Over the epochs, due to the decent of man, he has found himself searching for his creator. Though there are many belief systems, they originate from the incarnation of a master. No different than a sighted man being born for the first time in centuries, among a blind race. Records which have been passed down since the beginning often times become twisted at the ends and needs to be clarified. This is what has taken place. Then there is a system which comes along and tells you that you can build a human through chance. It is quick, its easy, its new, its hip, so people flock to it. More importantly, it finally grants one the ability to turn on all factions which seek the creator, while at the same time evading the backlash which stems from a shared stance. But like all fads it comes, it goes, some people adopt it, some people would pay as much attention to the creed of atheism as they would to those would throw rocks believing that they can build the great pyramid. If you don't bother them, they won't bother you.

I don't find creeds compelling.
Nor promises.
Nor social conditioning.
Nor supernatural claims.
Least of all threats.

Youve already pronounced you adherence to your creator. Where is the space for another. Its completely natural. Your outlook on the present is a result of your perception of the past. And "A person cannot mount two horses or bend two bows. And a slave cannot serve two masters, otherwise that slave will honor the one and offend the other."

In one thread alone I found this list of insults toward atheists: arrogant, blind, evil, dead horse, don’t listen to reason, dwell in darkness, deserve to go to hell, they have made me hate them, they throw crap at each other, think they know everything, under the influence of Satan, unreasonable...

I don't think these qualify as insults. I am utterly flabbergasted that you are sitting here playing the victim. One of the most predominant scenarios you witness in a setting is an atheist giving insults and the theist taking. Your ability to post these "insults" without getting flagged is already an indication of disproportionate exchanges as I would love to tell you what we get bombarded with on a daily basis but will probably get mod hatted. There have been instances where there are those who can't take it anymore, concede for once, and retaliate. The response by the atheist is somewhere along the lines of "so much for being a christian" or "didnt Jesus tell you to turn the other cheek" or "very christian like behavior". So you leave, and they continue on somebody else.

I've also noticed that you guys are so, so, so, sensitive. How do you throw so many stones when you live in a glass house? Is it true then, that bullies are afraid of being bullied?

Most who turn atheists often times don't admit it, but the primary reason is because they grew up in an environment where they have never been insulted so badly in their lives. They get inside this safety bubble where the derision is heading in another direction then actually turn and start throwing out insults. How do you get offended by "don’t listen to reason, dwell in darkness,". These are purses and lipsticks, chief. Sweet talk, compared to the opposition. They are not even insults. When Jesus said that he will sow seeds but not all will grow. Some will fall on the path, and will be taken away. Are you offended by being a path? When he "they are blind in their hearts and do not see". Are you offended by being blind in your hearts? What if I say "don't be silly". Are you offended by being called "silly"? Wow. When a mother tells her child that he is too young to understand. Is he insulted for being told that he is "young"? There are things parents will tell their children which cannot be repeated here but you will be able to draw a clear distinction between the two. "Under the influence of Satan". That is an insult? :o

 

[Catherineanne]

"Under the influence of Satan". That is an insult? :o

Yes, it is.

More importantly, it breaks the injunction to love our enemies.

Good luck with that.

 

[b&wpac4]

"Under the influence of Satan". That is an insult? :o

I'd make a comment on this showing how it was but I'd rather turn it back onto you.
How is it not an insult?

 

[Greg1234]

I'd make a comment on this showing how it was but I'd rather turn it back onto you.
How is it not an insult?

If you want to take it as an insult then that is fine. You say that you were at your friend's yesterday. I say that I disagree. You can then reply "Are you calling me a low down, dirty, no good, filthy liar?" The fact is anything and everything can be taken as an insult. If every single statement in a disagreement is a point you do not agree with, and every point you do not agree with is seen as an insult, then there is no disagreement. There are general statements about a person's character and there are specified views in relation to a given point of disagreement. The latter is often indicated by supporting sentences which clarify through elaboration. And there are statements about a person which are unwarranted, and is not a judgment based on the data being presented. There is a slight difference between "you do not understand what I am telling you", and "you are too dumb to understand". There are degrees of intensity, in a world where every thing is an insult. There is a point when you "cross the line". I do not think that "under the influence of Satan" or the argument that an alter force, in conjunction with the carnal mind may cause one to hold material influences as priority one, is such an instance. But of course everyone has their own personal line, so it gets even more complicated. If you believe that a boundary has been breached then thats fine. But I disagree (insult?).

 

[ephraimanesti]

I'd make a comment on this showing how it was but I'd rather turn it back onto you.
How is it not an insult?

MY BROTHER,

The entire world is under the influence of satan since it was banished to Earth. All of us are, to a greater or lesser extent, under it's influence. The Kingdom of God is a Light in the satanic darkness, but those who have turned their backs on God and refused His Grace-fill offer of adoption and His children and citizenship in His Kingdom, have nothing to fight with and no place to hide from the influence of the evil one.

Far from being an insult or a negative attack, it is a simple statement of fact--that's the way things are on planet Earth.

(It also, incidentally, applies equally to Christians who make the mistake of trying to serve two masters.)

However, there is an Arc, built by Abba through the instrumentality of His Son and by the Power of His Holy Spirit, waiting to lift you above the troubled waters rising around you as the world as we know it continues to disintegrate. You might want to consider taking shelter.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[b&wpac4]

But I disagree (insult?).

I do not take disagreement as an insult, but I do hold that suggesting someone is under the influence of, what to your mind, is the most evil being in the history of the universe is an insult. You're not merely disagreeing with me if you suggest that, you are openly stating that I am in some way in allegiance with this being.

If I said: "Christianity is the influence of Satan deluding people from the truth" would I be insulting Christianity and/or Christians?

 

[ephraimanesti]

I do not take disagreement as an insult, but I do hold that suggesting someone is under the influence of, what to your mind, is the most evil being in the history of the universe is an insult. You're not merely disagreeing with me if you suggest that, you are openly stating that I am in some way in allegiance with this being.

If I said: "Christianity is the influence of Satan deluding people from the truth" would I be insulting Christianity and/or Christians?

MY DEAR BROTHER,

That is NOT what is implied.

i grew up in Los Angeles--perhaps the "smog capital of the world." i therefore grew up under the influence of smog--asthma, bronchitis, and other respiratory ailments. i was negatively affected by this pollution--along, of course, with millions of others

satan is a spiritual pollution, and the effect is much the same process--the world is now covered with its lies, negative promptings, sinful proclivities, senseless hatred and fear, inability to project Holy unconditional/disinterested Love--general benevolence and compassion--to all others--including enemies--etc., etc., etc. One has only to read the morning paper or watch the evening news of T.V. to see that satan is hard at work and very successful at what it is doing. (Of course non-believers will chalk up all the increasing insanity going on in the world to "politicians, jihadists, corporate greed, mental illness . . . .whatever. The fact remains that spiritual warfare is the underlying cause of all these negative symptoms.) anyway--

We are ALL under the influence--to one degree or another--of satan's blasphemous cloud of spiritual contamination. The only difference between believers and non-believers, is that believers are aware of the menace and have found a shelter in God's Kingdom, while non-believers are oblivious to the danger and are focused primarily on "being the best that they can be" and "getting ahead" in this dying world.

NO INSULT . . . . JUST REALITY.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[b&wpac4]

NO INSULT . . . . JUST REALITY.

That charge is rarely used in the way you are suggesting. Being the target of it before, I knew exactly what was being implied and exactly what was being suggested. If you say "We are all under..." then it is obviously not an insult. Your belief is that everybody is, basically, the same just some know it and other don't. Fine.

If you say "You, b&w, are under the influence of Satan" then you have personalized it, making it an insult because you are not generalizing it by suggesting all mankind is this way, but making it so that everybody sees that you think I am this way. It doesn't imply that you believe everybody, including yourself, is under the influence.

 

[Wicked Willow]

Personally, I don't necessarily conceive of "you're under the influence of Satan" as an insult. It *can* be intended as an insult, if delivered in a certain fashion, but for the most part, it's something else entirely:

It's a kind of self-generated mental block, a nice pair of ideological blinders that some people need to rationalize disagreement. You'll find that a lot in cultish environments, or in starkly exclusivist world views.

You disagree with a Scientologist? - That's because you're an SP, and thus under the crippling influence of your body thetans; for of course, any person who sees clearly is in agreement with Scientology.

You disagree with a radical Communist of the Leninist/Stalinist-extraction? - Well, that's because you've been fed lies by the upper classes all your life, and have been groomed to become a counter-revolutionary sheep.

You disagree with a conspiracy theorist? - That means that you either belong to Them or have been manipulated by Them.

See how that works?
When people result to that kind of protective rationalization in order not to face the arguments I present, I mostly smile, nod, and back away slowly. Rational discussion is virtually impossible with these types. They'd have to build up a sufficient amount of cognitive dissonance before they'd even become remotely open to a honest talk on eye-level. Everything that happens before that is just them trying to convert you to their way of thinking - for they "know" with unwavering conviction that they've got the One Truth, and everybody else is wrong by default.

 

[b&wpac4]

See how that works?
When people result to that kind of protective rationalization in order not to face the arguments I present, I mostly smile, nod, and back away slowly. Rational discussion is virtually impossible with these types. They'd have to build up a sufficient amount of cognitive dissonance before they'd even become remotely open to a honest talk on eye-level. Everything that happens before that is just them trying to convert you to their way of thinking - for they "know" with unwavering conviction that they've got the One Truth, and everybody else is wrong by default.

I agree with this. I suppose, in the end, I've had the insult flung at me more than the "everybody is under the influence" so I'm a bit more sensitive to it.

 

[ephraimanesti]

That charge is rarely used in the way you are suggesting. Being the target of it before, I knew exactly what was being implied and exactly what was being suggested. If you say "We are all under..." then it is obviously not an insult. Your belief is that everybody is, basically, the same just some know it and other don't. Fine.

MY BROTHER,

Given the great Biblical Truth that, "There is no difference, ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) there should be no "targets"--only compassion for those without a Shield.

If you say "You, b&w, are under the influence of Satan" then you have personalized it, making it an insult because you are not generalizing it by suggesting all mankind is this way, but making it so that everybody sees that you think I am this way. It doesn't imply that you believe everybody, including yourself, is under the influence.

Understood.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[ephraimanesti]

I agree with this. I suppose, in the end, I've had the insult flung at me more than the "everybody is under the influence" so I'm a bit more sensitive to it.

MY DEAR BROTHER,

When it happens, can't you just chalk it up to ignorance and shake it off with a chuckle?

i'm not saying its "right" i'm just saying . . .

ephraim

 

[b&wpac4]

When it happens, can't you just chalk it up to ignorance and shake it off with a chuckle?

I'm just a believer in action not complacency. I see these things and I want to make people aware of what they are saying and how they are effecting those around them. Turning a blind eye to ignorance only breeds more ignorance.

 

[ephraimanesti]

It's a kind of self-generated mental block, a nice pair of ideological blinders that some people need to rationalize disagreement. You'll find that a lot in cultish environments, or in starkly exclusivist world views.

See how that works?
When people result to that kind of protective rationalization in order not to face the arguments I present, I mostly smile, nod, and back away slowly. Rational discussion is virtually impossible with these types. They'd have to build up a sufficient amount of cognitive dissonance before they'd even become remotely open to a honest talk on eye-level. Everything that happens before that is just them trying to convert you to their way of thinking - for they "know" with unwavering conviction that they've got the One Truth, and everybody else is wrong by default.

MY DEAR SISTER,

i understand the process you delineate above, and agree as to its intent and functioning. But--

So here is my/our problem as Christians (short version)--i have met the Living God "Face" to face. i have seen--those around me have gratefully seen--the power of His Holy Spirit transforming my life from that of a crazed animal to what is beginning to look sort of like a human being. i have seen, through the power of the Spirit, my outlook on others change from hatred and victimization to Love and sacrifice. i have seen the evil that was consuming me turn to an approximation (most of the time) of God's gracious Good. Etc., i think you get the point.

Soooooooo . . . . given that nothing or nobody else was ever able to make the slightest dent in my putrid armor over the course of my lifetime and then suddenly, when i became desperate enough to surrender myself to God and to His Will and to the indwelling Power of His Holy Spirit==and SUDDENLY changes began to happen within me that have no precedent and no logical explanation--HOW CAN i NOT BE CONVINCED OF HAVING FOUND THE TRUTH, AND HOW CAN I NOT SINGLE-MINDEDLY TRY TO IMPART THIS TRUTH TO OTHERS? i have proved to myself, to my own satisfaction, that God and His Gospel is, indeed, the "ONE TRUTH" How can i not offer it on this basis knowing what i know from my personal experience?

i hope the question is clear--i'm starting to confuse myself!

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[ephraimanesti]

I'm just a believer in action not complacency. I see these things and I want to make people aware of what they are saying and how they are effecting those around them. Turning a blind eye to ignorance only breeds more ignorance.

Fighting in a lost cause, on the other hand, leads to migraines. Those who are, in reality, mounting an attack on you personally will not heart what you are saying and will just chalk your attempts to inform up to your "satanic possession" or whatever. Our Lord opened not His mouth in His own defense before those who were seeking His Life, and He earlier (Matthew 5) pronounced "blessed" those who are attacked and disparaged unjustly.

Why not take the blessing and avoid the headache?

PEACE TO YA,
ephraim

 

[Greg1234]

If I said: "Christianity is the influence of Satan deluding people from the truth" would I be insulting Christianity and/or Christians?

You changed it up. Negation of "under". In addition, the foundations on which Christianity is founded as the opposing force, so I don't know how much of an insult that would be. I see the statement as no different than a teacher telling a parent that her kid is so hyper active these days. Im sure that parent could take it as an insult as a pie in the face of her competence in raising her child. The teacher may not see it as such and just say "this is the definition of hyperactive as we know it, this is how your child behaves, therefore I think that you child is hyper active. Hyperactive is not an insult." Another woman walks in the teacher says the same thing the woman replies in agreement even sharing and relating similar experiences at home. Two different people, one takes it as an insult one doesnt. Some may say, "This is the definition of the influence of Satan and material forces, this is how some people behave, whether within or outside of Christianity. Therefore I believe that these people are under the influence of Satan." You see it as an insult. I don't. Back in the school setting, if you were to tell me that my child as a piece of.... with *******$%$#@, that's over the line. Believe it or not, to some people, not yet so. You see under the influence of Satan as term which breaks into the derogatory realm which of course is a result of the intensity which you hold this statement under and the words you compare it with, in that setting and context. In the middle east it is an insult to show the underside of your foot. In some countries, a thumbs up is an insult. Where some come from, under the influence of satan, is far from being an insult. If it were to be stated it would only be seen as a statement indicating that that opposing force is taking precedence with an insulting to informative ratio no different that "hyperactive". But in a forum with different countries, different backgrounds, and different cultures, this is expected. There are many insulting words and phrases and even though there are universals, which are meant to be taken as an insult, there are those which are not, yet often are (the reason why "i did not mean to offend you" was invented) On that note, I do not see "under the influence of Satan" as an insult.

 

[Wicked Willow]

MY DEAR SISTER,

i understand the process you delineate above, and agree as to its intent and functioning. But--

So here is my/our problem as Christians (short version)--i have met the Living God "Face" to face. i have seen--those around me have gratefully seen--the power of His Holy Spirit transforming my life from that of a crazed animal to what is beginning to look sort of like a human being. i have seen, through the power of the Spirit, my outlook on others change from hatred and victimization to Love and sacrifice. i have seen the evil that was consuming me turn to an approximation (most of the time) of God's gracious Good. Etc., i think you get the point.

Soooooooo . . . . given that nothing or nobody else was ever able to make the slightest dent in my putrid armor over the course of my lifetime and then suddenly, when i became desperate enough to surrender myself to God and to His Will and to the indwelling Power of His Holy Spirit==and SUDDENLY changes began to happen within me that have no precedent and no logical explanation--HOW CAN i NOT BE CONVINCED OF HAVING FOUND THE TRUTH, AND HOW CAN I NOT SINGLE-MINDEDLY TRY TO IMPART THIS TRUTH TO OTHERS? i have proved to myself, to my own satisfaction, that God and His Gospel is, indeed, the "ONE TRUTH" How can i not offer it on this basis knowing what i know from my personal experience?

i hope the question is clear--i'm starting to confuse myself!

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

Oh, I think the question is quite clear. And the answer is:

I'm not asking you to compromise your own beliefs, your own unwavering conviction. I see how your perspective works; asking you to concede that other world views might be correct is like asking a person with some basic grounding in astronomy to concede that the Earth was probably flat, and the sun but a light source attached to a solid, overarching dome. It's just not something that you could possibly accept.
(The difference between the two being, of course, that there are very tangible means of demonstrating the shape of the earth and the structure of the solar system, whereas world views and spiritualities are a lot more abstract and unfalsifiable than that.)

However, let's assume for a moment that you *have* found the "One Truth", and that everybody who hasn't done so yet is essentially blind to it, doomed to stumble down some dead-end street unless they're brought to the light.
Do you think that telling them that they're Satan's playthings will convince them of the error of their ways, given that they don't believe in Satan to begin with? Or will that statement only harden them further, driving them even further down the road they are traversing? People sometimes point to the fact that Jesus, as per the gospels, called some people nasty names - but do you think that this led to the salvation of the parties he addressed thus? Or did it increase their antagonism?
And last but not least, what was it that brought you around? A preacher telling you that you were a pawn of the Evil One - or was it the Spirit?
Of course, if your God exists, he may work in many ways; so maybe you *can* be instrumental in someone's salvation, by telling him just the right words in the right situation, guided by the Spirit. But for the most part, I don't think that it's words that bring people to the light, even if they're quotes from the Bible. If what you believe about the spiritual state of us Non-Christians is correct, then only God can save us. Literally.

 

[JJWhite]

Do you think that telling them that they're Satan's playthings will convince them of the error of their ways, given that they don't believe in Satan to begin with? Or will that statement only harden them further, driving them even further down the road they are traversing? People sometimes point to the fact that Jesus, as per the gospels, called some people nasty names - but do you think that this led to the salvation of the parties he addressed thus? Or did it increase their antagonism?

Hmmm... good point...this reminds me of something that happened during the time of Prophet Muhammad.

Well, part of the law in Madeenah at the time was that if you drank alcohol in public you'd receive a certain number of lashes. (I know that this probably sounds harsh, etc...but this is not my point in this discussion.) So, when one of the companions drank and was receiving his punishment, some of the other companions started saying some condemning remarks to him for doing what he did... (How could you's and have you no faith sort of stuff)... immediately, the Prophet stepped in and said... "Do not be SATAN'S ALLIES AGAINST your brother." His point was, the man drank, he's getting his punishment per the law, that should be the end of it... no need to make the guy feel bad about it...

By telling someone he's 'under Satan's influence', one might actually be helping Satan out by pushing him further away.

 

[Dragons87]

Do you think that telling them that they're Satan's playthings will convince them of the error of their ways, given that they don't believe in Satan to begin with? Or will that statement only harden them further, driving them even further down the road they are traversing? People sometimes point to the fact that Jesus, as per the gospels, called some people nasty names - but do you think that this led to the salvation of the parties he addressed thus? Or did it increase their antagonism?

Just a general observation: sometimes the truth hurts, and sometimes the hurt of truth is the only thing some people will respond to.

Perhaps part of the onus is on the receiver of opinion to receive the opinion with grace and assume that the giver of opinion gave it on good faith. Rather than getting angry and offended as an immediate response, why not probe deeper into the meaning of the giver of opinion?

As someone else said on this forum, it takes a selfish person to notice that someone else is being selfish. In the same vein, perhaps only a self-centred person will take offence with anything said, while a patient person will always see the other or larger side of the story. Why not be that patient person?