Superiority Complex.

[Glass*Soul]

MY DEAR BROTHER,

The Holy Spirit is a person--not an "it".

That aside, the Holy Spirit can only accomplish His duties when we are completely surrendered to His Power and completely open and receptive to what He is trying to do in our Hearts.

However, in order to receive the Holy Spirit in the first place, there is a process to be completed:

"When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, 'Brothers, what shall we do?'

"Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.' " (Acts 2:37-38)

The Process being:

#1. Believe the Gospel

#2. Repent of your sins

#3. Be Baptized, letting your old sinful ego die in the water and be raised up a New Creation, with God's new Life in control of your being in its place

#4. Receive the Holy Spirit, and keep the Temple cleansed so as to be a fit habitation for God to indwell you

#5. Surrender COMPLETELY to the Holy Spirit, listen to His (still small) voice, and be obedient in all that you are told.

SIMPLE! Have you done these things prior to your expecting the Holy Spirit to do His thing?

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

It puzzled me that there would be a step-by-step process in place to access an ekstasis (a standing outside of oneself in the presence of the Other). It seems to me that the process might be more of a mystery...more of an inward journey taken in secret..one fully prepared for when all striving has ceased...

On a dark night,
Kindled in love with yearnings--
oh, happy chance!--
I went forth without being observed,
My house being now at rest.
In darkness and secure,
By the secret ladder,
disguised--oh, happy chance!--
In darkness and in concealment,
My house being now at rest.
In the happy night,
In secret, when none saw me,
Nor I beheld aught,
Without light or guide,
save that which burned in my heart.
This light guided me
More surely than the light of noonday
To the place where he
(well I knew who!)
was awaiting me--
A place where none appeared.
Oh, night that guided me,
Oh, night more lovely than the dawn,
Oh, night that joined Beloved with lover,
Lover transformed in the Beloved!
Upon my flowery breast,
Kept wholly for himself alone,
There he stayed sleeping,
and I caressed him,
And the fanning of the cedars made a breeze.
The breeze blew from the turret
As I parted his locks;
With his gentle hand he wounded my neck
And caused all my senses to be suspended.
I remained, lost in oblivion;
My face I reclined on the Beloved.
All ceased and I abandoned myself,
Leaving my cares forgotten among the lilies.

~St. John of the Cross

Unless it's more like the Microsoft office assistant that just comes with the purchase of your PC and pops up with advice when it senses you don't know what to do.

‎

 

[razeontherock]

Each of us will experience it somewhat differently, and also with certain identifiable similarities. E wrote:


The Process being:

#1. Believe the Gospel

#2. Repent of your sins

#3. Be Baptized, letting your old sinful ego die in the water and be raised up a New Creation, with God's new Life in control of your being in its place

#4. Receive the Holy Spirit, and keep the Temple cleansed so as to be a fit habitation for God to indwell you

#5. Surrender COMPLETELY to the Holy Spirit, listen to His (still small) voice, and be obedient in all that you are told.

That reads very well and I certainly have no argument, however my actual life doesn't read quite like that. #2 was like, really tough for me. This is apparently a big deal w/ G-d.

#3, the physical baptism I took seriously, wanting to understand it before I just went through a meaningless ritual G-d could not honor.

#4 I sought with my whole heart until I got. I knew when I had "sought with my whole heart" because I got it. If that sounds circular it's because you don't get it, that this is a separate identity with His own opinions. I'll also point out this happened over 3 years after first having Christ enter my heart and life in a very real, tangible, miraculous way.
but until #4 here, I still had no power to do #2. #4 changed all that, BUT

I can't even pretend to have fulfilled #5 yet. I'm closer though!

 

[scraparcs]

It puzzled me that there would be a step-by-step process in place to access an ekstasis (a standing outside of oneself in the presence of the Other). It seems to me that the process might be more of a mystery...more of an inward journey taken in secret..one fully prepared for when all striving has ceased...

On a dark night,
Kindled in love with yearnings--
oh, happy chance!--
I went forth without being observed,
My house being now at rest.
In darkness and secure,
By the secret ladder,
disguised--oh, happy chance!--
In darkness and in concealment,
My house being now at rest.
In the happy night,
In secret, when none saw me,
Nor I beheld aught,
Without light or guide,
save that which burned in my heart.
This light guided me
More surely than the light of noonday
To the place where he
(well I knew who!)
was awaiting me--
A place where none appeared.
Oh, night that guided me,
Oh, night more lovely than the dawn,
Oh, night that joined Beloved with lover,
Lover transformed in the Beloved!
Upon my flowery breast,
Kept wholly for himself alone,
There he stayed sleeping,
and I caressed him,
And the fanning of the cedars made a breeze.
The breeze blew from the turret
As I parted his locks;
With his gentle hand he wounded my neck
And caused all my senses to be suspended.
I remained, lost in oblivion;
My face I reclined on the Beloved.
All ceased and I abandoned myself,
Leaving my cares forgotten among the lilies.

~St. John of the Cross

Unless it's more like the Microsoft office assistant that just comes with the purchase of your PC and pops up with advice when it senses you don't know what to do.

‎

I hope I am explaining this correctly, not being well versed in mystical experience. I would imagine that there has to be a formula to achieve union with Christ in Christianity as mystical experiences do not happen for all. Given that Jesus stated that all who call upon him shall be saved, there must be some method by which all can come to have this union with Christ. Thus, there is formula. For the blessed few, there is mystery.

 

[JohnCR]

MY DEAR BROTHER,

The Holy Spirit is a person--not an "it".

That aside, the Holy Spirit can only accomplish His duties when we are completely surrendered to His Power and completely open and receptive to what He is trying to do in our Hearts.

However, in order to receive the Holy Spirit in the first place, there is a process to be completed:

"When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, 'Brothers, what shall we do?'

"Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.' " (Acts 2:37-38)

The Process being:

#1. Believe the Gospel

#2. Repent of your sins

#3. Be Baptized, letting your old sinful ego die in the water and be raised up a New Creation, with God's new Life in control of your being in its place

#4. Receive the Holy Spirit, and keep the Temple cleansed so as to be a fit habitation for God to indwell you

#5. Surrender COMPLETELY to the Holy Spirit, listen to His (still small) voice, and be obedient in all that you are told.

SIMPLE! Have you done these things prior to your expecting the Holy Spirit to do His thing?

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

It's really a catch-22 though. If I actually tried to believe and still didn't, then you would say I didn't surrender myself enough. This process isn't falsifiable.

Besides, why would I believe something that I have zero reason to? Everyone seems to want everyone else to join their club, but they all seem unable to provide satisfactory reasons why we should.

 

[scraparcs]

Each of us will experience it somewhat differently, and also with certain identifiable similarities. E wrote:


The Process being:

#1. Believe the Gospel

#2. Repent of your sins

#3. Be Baptized, letting your old sinful ego die in the water and be raised up a New Creation, with God's new Life in control of your being in its place

#4. Receive the Holy Spirit, and keep the Temple cleansed so as to be a fit habitation for God to indwell you

#5. Surrender COMPLETELY to the Holy Spirit, listen to His (still small) voice, and be obedient in all that you are told.

That reads very well and I certainly have no argument, however my actual life doesn't read quite like that. #2 was like, really tough for me. This is apparently a big deal w/ G-d.

#3, the physical baptism I took seriously, wanting to understand it before I just went through a meaningless ritual G-d could not honor.

#4 I sought with my whole heart until I got. I knew when I had "sought with my whole heart" because I got it. If that sounds circular it's because you don't get it, that this is a separate identity with His own opinions. I'll also point out this happened over 3 years after first having Christ enter my heart and life in a very real, tangible, miraculous way.
but until #4 here, I still had no power to do #2. #4 changed all that, BUT

I can't even pretend to have fulfilled #5 yet. I'm closer though!

Shall we start talking pedobaptism and credobaptism vis-a-vis #3?

 

[ephraimanesti]

It puzzled me that there would be a step-by-step process in place to access an ekstasis (a standing outside of oneself in the presence of the Other). It seems to me that the process might be more of a mystery...more of an inward journey taken in secret..one fully prepared for when all striving has ceased...‎

MY FRIEND,

NOPE! What we are discussing is so simple a child can do it--in fact, our Lord states that we have to become as little children to do it.

What is being discussed is the initial entrance into the Kingdom for the purpose of experiencing the Truth of Scriptural promises and their personal attainability.

St. John of the Cross and his "DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL" is a whole different issue. Ya gotta learn addition before tackling calculus.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[razeontherock]

Part of my initial interest here was to see if there might be recognizable patterns, and also with respect to specific doctrines within Christianity that I frankly hate.

As I suspected, there is no such thing as a formula. What there IS, is a G-d that not only knows each of our hearts, but it's thoughts, as separated from it's intents.

The "formula" for finding G-d includes:

He has to be looking for you first. (Usually recognizable by your own interest)
You seeking Him with a whole heart. Is this synonymous with all of the intentions of your heart? It may well be, but I never got anywhere with that until I realized I simply didn't have a whole heart to seek Him with.

With me, reading His Word and approaching it like it was literally the Living G-d speaking to me was a BIG part of it. And recently someone pointed out I "am a mystic," the idea being it's a separate sort and not something we have control over. I don't know anything about that last part. FWIW.

 

[razeontherock]

Besides, why would I believe something that I have zero reason to? Everyone seems to want everyone else to join their club, but they all seem unable to provide satisfactory reasons why we should.

This is really the *cough* HEART of the issue. Yagottawanna

 

[scraparcs]

MY FRIEND,

NOPE! What we are discussing is so simple a child can do it--in fact, our Lord states that we have to become as little children to do it.

What is being discussed is the initial entrance into the Kingdom for the purpose of experiencing the Truth of Scriptural promises and their personal attainability.

St. John of the Cross and his "DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL" is a whole different issue. Ya gotta learn addition before tackling calculus.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

Yet not all mystics, not all those who attain union with the divine, are Christian.

 

[scraparcs]

This is really the *cough* HEART of the issue. Yagottawanna

And there has to be a reason to do so. Aside from Pascal's Wager (which has been beaten to death somewhat like a dead horse), what reasons are there for wanting to follow the gospel?

 

[ephraimanesti]

It's really a catch-22 though. If I actually tried to believe and still didn't, then you would say I didn't surrender myself enough. This process isn't falsifiable.

Besides, why would I believe something that I have zero reason to? Everyone seems to want everyone else to join their club, but they all seem unable to provide satisfactory reasons why we should.

MY BROTHER,

Well, there ya go--empty hands, empty pockets and no real explanation or excuse other than "why should I?" How dreary!

You understand, of course, that if nothing changes for you, NOTHING CHANGES FOR YOU--EVER!

And if, perhaps, things are going well for you now and you are happy with your life, why are you wasting your time in the midst of a bunch of deluded Christians with nothing to offer you but the same lame answers you got last week, and the week before, and the week before that . . . . .

"There is nothing new under the sun" for those unwilling or unable to change. Maybe there's something on T.V.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[Glass*Soul]

I hope I am explaining this correctly, not being well versed in mystical experience. I would imagine that there has to be a formula to achieve union with Christ in Christianity as mystical experiences do not happen for all. Given that Jesus stated that all who call upon him shall be saved, there must be some method by which all can come to have this union with Christ. Thus, there is formula. For the blessed few, there is mystery.

I have a friend who ia a life long atheist. Unlike me, he has never believed. He had a ecstatic/mystical experience that simply fell upon him as he waited in an empty classroom. It changed the complexion of his love for his fellow human beings. He is still an atheist, though he lost his zeal for anti-apologetics.

Mysteries are...well...mysterious.

 

[scraparcs]

I have a friend who ia a life long atheist. Unlike me, he has never believed. He had a ecstatic/mystical experience that simply fell upon him as he waited in an empty classroom. It changed the complexion of his love for his fellow human beings. He is still an atheist, though he lost his zeal for anti-apologetics.

Mysteries are...well...mysterious.

Likewise, not all who experience mystery join any religion at all.

I had an interesting experience in Utah, right on the BYU campus. Was that God telling me to become Mormon?

 

[ephraimanesti]

And there has to be a reason to do so. Aside from Pascal's Wager (which has been beaten to death somewhat like a dead horse), what reasons are there for wanting to follow the gospel?

Having a REAL life as a fully functioning human being living out their Creator's Image and Likeness in the material world, rather than just existing as evolved animals do, for one.

ephraim

 

[JohnCR]

MY BROTHER,

Well, there ya go--empty hands, empty pockets and no real explanation or excuse other than "why should I?" How dreary!

You understand, of course, that if nothing changes for you, NOTHING CHANGES FOR YOU--EVER!

You know that that could be considered proselytizing if I were to start giving reasons not to believe in God.

And if, perhaps, things are going well for you now and you are happy with your life, why are you wasting your time in the midst of a bunch of deluded Christians with nothing to offer you but the same lame answers you got last week, and the week before, and the week before that . . . . .

"There is nothing new under the sun" for those unwilling or unable to change. Maybe there's something on T.V.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

Good point. Bye.

 

[scraparcs]

Having a REAL life as a fully functioning human being living out their Creator's Image and Likeness in the material world, rather than just existing as evolved animals do, for one.

ephraim

FYI, that doesn't work for those who don't believe in a creator.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Yet not all mystics, not all those who attain union with the divine, are Christian.

MY SISTER,

Our Lord states, "I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME." (John 14:6, 7)

In my wanderings, i have seen and experienced some pretty strange "spiritual" stuff--experiences which i labeled as "Touching God" at the time. Now that i have, through Jesus Christ, actually touched God, i am in a position to judge my former experiences and see them for what they were, synapses in the brain doing weird stuff as a result of meditation, chemicals, fasting, etc. The Real Deal differs markedly from the effects of freaked-out neurotransmitters. That is all i can judge by.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[ephraimanesti]

FYI, that doesn't work for those who don't believe in a creator.

Of course not. God's Light and the darkness of unbelief cannot mix.

For an unbeliever, nothing works, because all choices have consequences.

ephraim

 

[Glass*Soul]

And there has to be a reason to do so. Aside from Pascal's Wager (which has been beaten to death somewhat like a dead horse), what reasons are there for wanting to follow the gospel?

That's a valid question.

It's gotta be something more than the promise of becoming the next meme incubator.

I sometimes think of the Gospel as a dance that is passing by. One of those intricate grape-vine things. If it's compelling, one allows one's hand to be taken. If not, one allows it to pass.

I don't find creeds compelling.
Nor promises.
Nor social conditioning.
Nor supernatural claims.
Least of all threats.

So, what makes a skeptic hold out his/her hand? I think...if I see people saving one another. That might do it. If there are symbols, traditions, prayers and the like that seem to go along with it and that somehow make the acts of salvation more possible in some particular and tangible way, I might be enticed to participate within whatever bounds my skepticism might allow. If it felt necessary.

So far (and this is only my personal observation) the acts of salvation I see going on, from doctors dropping whatever they are doing, risking everything to go to Haiti after the earthquake to a gentle word to a worried son or daughter in the ER waiting room--all of the varied saving acts that take place day by day from the most basic to the most sacrificial, it all feels separated from the creeds and dogmas and supernatural claims, all the symbols, traditions and prayers that belong to Christianity. Even when it is being done by Christians.

When I look at Christianity as an an institution I see far too many instances of fearful, small, miserly and restrictive acts. There was a time when NC's were allowed to post in Christian Apologetics. In one thread alone I found this list of insults toward atheists: arrogant, blind, evil, dead horse, don’t listen to reason, dwell in darkness, deserve to go to hell, they have made me hate them, they throw crap at each other, think they know everything, under the influence of Satan, unreasonable...

I started a poll asking people to agree to stop these sorts of insults. Only four people agreed.

This is only an example. There were small and fearful decisions going on in the church I last attended. Even among people who would spend nearly every weekend working for Habitat for Humanity. The religion, the beliefs, the worship, none of it seemed connected to me to the real saving work they would do even if they woke up tomorrow with utter amnesia as to the claims of Christianity.

So, what is going to make me want to take a hand as the dance passes by? It's not going to be the mere quoting of a verse of scripture.

Whoops. Sorry. Rant over.

 

[ephraimanesti]

That's a valid question.

It's gotta be something more than the promise of becoming the next meme incubator.

I sometimes think of the Gospel as a dance that is passing by. One of those intricate grape-vine things. If it's compelling, one allows one's hand to be taken. If not, one allows it to pass.

I don't find creeds compelling.
Nor promises.
Nor social conditioning.
Nor supernatural claims.
Least of all threats.

So, what makes a skeptic hold out his/her hand? I think...if I see people saving one another. That might do it. If there are symbols, traditions, prayers and the like that seem to go along with it and that somehow make the acts of salvation more possible in some particular and tangible way, I might be enticed to participate within whatever bounds my skepticism might allow. If it felt necessary.

So far (and this is only my personal observation) the acts of salvation I see going on, from doctors dropping whatever they are doing, risking everything to go to Haiti after the earthquake to a gentle word to a worried son or daughter in the ER waiting room--all of the varied saving acts that take place day by day from the most basic to the most sacrificial, it all feels separated from the creeds and dogmas and supernatural claims, all the symbols, traditions and prayers that belong to Christianity. Even when it is being done by Christians.

When I look at Christianity as an an institution I see far too many instances of fearful, small, miserly and restrictive acts. There was a time when NC's were allowed to post in Christian Apologetics. In one thread alone I found this list of insults toward atheists: arrogant, blind, evil, dead horse, don’t listen to reason, dwell in darkness, deserve to go to hell, they have made me hate them, they throw crap at each other, think they know everything, under the influence of Satan, unreasonable...

I started a poll asking people to agree to stop these sorts of insults. Only four people agreed.

This is only an example. There were small and fearful decisions going on in the church I last attended. Even among people who would spend nearly every weekend working for Habitat for Humanity. The religion, the beliefs, the worship, none of it seemed connected to me to the real saving work they would have done even if they woke up tomorrow with utter amnesia as to the claims of Christianity.

So, what is going to make me want to take a hand as the dance passes by? It's not going to be the mere quoting of a verse of scripture.

Whoops. Sorry. Rant over.

And a very instructive and humbling rant it was.

WELL DONE!
ephraim