Superiority Complex.

[Catherineanne]

MY SISTER,

Is not the honest, accurate, and comprehensive speaking of God's Word to another--especially one lost in the darkness of unbelief--the ultimate expression of Love towards them?

ephraim

No. Sometimes that is the very opposite of love, and the very last thing anyone wants to hear. The ultimate expression of love to someone lost is to simply be there, and listen. And if you get tempted to say something, don't.

The single most underused gift of the Spirit is self control. If more Christians practiced this gift, the world would be a happier place.

Try it next time. You sit there and listen, and let God do the talking, when he is ready, by means of the still small voice, not yours.

 

[Riski]

Catherineanne is from the UK where Christians are in the minority and ephraimanesti is from the US where Christians are in the majority, Catherineanne seems to speak for herself while ephraimanesti seems to speak for his god and everyone around him because he is not normally questioned as to the truth of what he says.

I will of course be told that I am completely wrong.

 

[Catherineanne]

Hey, you are aware of the fact that Paul was answering the question of whether the "Old Testament" scriptures were to be read or not, don't you?

The Bible as we know it today didn't exist at that point in history. Most of the New Testament wasn't even written at the time.

Quite right, WW.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Rule one: Never answer a question before it is asked. The answer will simply not be heard.

MY SISTER,

The problem with this idea is that THE QUESTION of primary importance is, "WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?" (Acts 16:30)

Unfortunately, no atheist is going to ever ask that question on their own.

The answer to their all-important unasked question may indeed not be "heard", but it is imprinted on their hard-drive nonetheless, where it can be referenced later if and when they begin seeking the Light at some point in the future--just as i did, for example.

We are mandated to preach the Gospel--"He said to them, 'GO INTO ALL THE WORLD AND PREACH THE GOOD NEWS TO ALL CREATION. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.' " (Mark 16:15-16)

We are NOT responsible for whether it is heard or not.

ephraim

 

[Catherineanne]

Catherineanne is from the UK where Christians are in the minority and ephraimanesti is from the US where Christians are in the majority, Catherineanne seems to speak for herself while ephraimanesti seems to speak for his god and everyone around him because he is not normally questioned about the truth of what he says.

UK religions:

Christian 42,079,000 71.6%

Religion in the United Kingdom: Diversity, Trends and Decline

 

[Catherineanne]

MY SISTER,

The problem with this idea is that THE QUESTION of primary importance is, "WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?" (Acts 16:30)

Unfortunately, no atheist is going to ever ask that question on their own.

Then that is just tough. You still have to wait.

Look at the gospels. See whether people came to the Lord and asked him a question, or whether he went to them and imposed an answer without a question being asked.

Then go and do likewise. Don't take my word for it; look for yourself. The Lord NEVER imposes himself on anyone, and neither should we.

The answer to their all-important unasked question may indeed not be "heard", but it is imprinted on their hard-drive nonetheless, where it can be referenced later if and when they begin seeking the Light at some point in the future--just as i did, for example.

All that will be imprinted on their mind is that they have just encountered yet another self centred, arrogant, presumptuous believer, who thinks that all the problems of life can be answered with trite soundbytes. They can't.

We are mandated to preach the Gospel--"He said to them, 'GO INTO ALL THE WORLD AND PREACH THE GOOD NEWS TO ALL CREATION. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.' " (Mark 16:15-16)

I have already given my view on this one. It accords with that of St Francis. If our faith is not who we are, first, second and third, then our words are just so much waste of hot air.

We are NOT responsible for whether it is heard or not.

ephraim

We are, however, responsible for putting people off our faith by being obnoxious. A bit of self control goes a long way.

 

[ephraimanesti]

No. Sometimes that is the very opposite of love, and the very last thing anyone wants to hear.

Of course it is the last thing in the world they want to hear--which is exactly why it should be the first thing out of a Christian's mouth.

The ultimate expression of love to someone lost is to simply be there, and listen. And if you get tempted to say something, don't.

Can you please point me to the places in Scripture where Paul, Peter, the Apostles and Disciples, and those participating in the events portrayed in Acts 2 were led by the Holy Spirit to forgo preaching the Gospel in order to sit quietly and attentively listen to the deluded ramblings of the unsaved they are mandated by their Lord to reach and bring into the kingdom?

i didn't think so.

The single most underused gift of the Spirit is self control. If more Christians practiced this gift, the world would be a happier place.

Lord have mercy! If Christians had "sat and listened" rather than fearlessly preaching the Gospel as commanded by their Lord--"IN SEASON AND OUT OF SEASON--satan's rebellion would have been successful, Christianity would have died out in the first generation, and we wouldn't even have a Bible to tell us that things should be otherwise.

Try it next time. You sit there and listen, and let God do the talking, when he is ready, by means of the still small voice, not yours.

No thanks! i choose to follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit and the clear and Godly instructions of St. Paul to all Christians,

"In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of His appearing and His kingdom, I give you this charge:

"Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men [and women] will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry." (II Timothy 4:1-5)

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[Catherineanne]

Of course it is the last thing in the world they want to hear--which is exactly why it should be the first thing out of a Christian's mouth.

I am heartened to see I am no longer your 'dear sister.' I wondered how long that would last.

Meanwhile, I don't remember seeing boorishness listed as one of the fruit of the Spirit.

Can you please point me to the places in Scripture where Paul, Peter, the Apostles and Disciples, and those participating in the events portrayed in Acts 2 were led by the Holy Spirit to forgo preaching the Gospel in order to sit quietly and attentively listen to the deluded ramblings of the unsaved they are mandated by their Lord to reach and bring into the kingdom?

Nice attitude. Tell me, do you ever get a second invitation to dinner?

Lord have mercy! If Christians had "sat and listened" rather than fearlessly preaching the Gospel as commanded by their Lord--"IN SEASON AND OUT OF SEASON--satan's rebellion would have been successful, Christianity would have died out in the first generation, and we wouldn't even have a Bible to tell us that things should be otherwise.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

No thanks! i choose to follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit and the clear and Godly instructions of St. Paul to all Christians,

"In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of His appearing and His kingdom, I give you this charge:

"Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men [and women] will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry." (II Timothy 4:1-5)

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

What we might call the sledgehammer approach to evangelism.

Good luck with that.

Meanwhile, you might care to revisit 1 Corinthians 13.

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

Indeed so.

 

[Colin]

Hey, you are aware of the fact that Paul was answering the question of whether the "Old Testament" scriptures were to be read or not, don't you?

The Bible as we know it today didn't exist at that point in history. Most of the New Testament wasn't even written at the time.

True , and thanks for pointing this out .

Sadly there is a lot of sloppy theology around regarding the Bible , its content , its origin , its use , and the authority that guarantees the correct interpretation of it .

Also , without love being the motivation , it is used too often to score points even against other Christians .
God's Word should be treated with love and respect , and not as a sledgehammer . There is more to Christianity than quoting the Bible , such as living the teachings of Jesus the Word .

 

[ephraimanesti]

Hey, you are aware of the fact that Paul was answering the question of whether the "Old Testament" scriptures were to be read or not, don't you?

The Bible as we know it today didn't exist at that point in history. Most of the New Testament wasn't even written at the time.

MY SISTER,

Come on, now--give me a little bit of credit! The New Testament is merely the fulfillment of the Old Testament. Nothing is changed, only brought to fruition--"DO NOT THINK THAT I HAVE COME TO ABOLISH THE LAW OR THE PROPHETS; I HAVE NOT COME TO ABOLISH THEM BUT TO FULFILL THEM. I TELL YOU THE TRUTH, UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH DISAPPEAR, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER NOT THE LEAST STROKE OF THE PEN, WILL BY ANY MEANS DISAPPEAR FROM THE LAW UNTIL EVERYTHING IS ACCOMPLISHED." (Matthew 5:17-18)

As David Brog point out, "Christianity not only shares Judaism's core morality but has been a most effective marketer thereof. Jesus took the message of Love from the Hebrew Bible and the Jewish sages and preached it with a sharp focus and a transformative passion. Jesus spread the Jewish idea of Love not only with His eloquent words, but also by His sacrificial deeds. Jesus gave the Love portrayed in the Old Testament a face and a narrative. In so doing, He led much of the world to embrace it."

So, saying all that to say this--Given that the primary Work of God is Love, the same lessons are taught in the Old Testament as in the New Testament. Nothing new is added, only a Face for God's Love--His Son Jesus Christ. Paul was telling Timothy--and us--in the Scripture cited that God's Word--whether "New" or "Old"--is the primary basis of all a Christian needs in order to do God's will regarding the preaching the Gospel to others.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[Catherineanne]

As David Brog point out, "... "

Sorry, are you not the person who said we are not to quote from anywhere but the Bible? I could have sworn ...

For a Christian, any other source of arguments are bogus because, for a Christian, the expectation is that their point of view will coincide EXACTLY with that expressed by their Abba and His Son.

There is NO "other point of reference when talking to people" besides God's expressed Word. HE is the one and only "point of reference" for a Christian. Not very "imaginative", perhaps, but it seems to me that faithfulness is more important that "imagination" in Spiritual matters, given that "imagination" is a key ingredient in the creation of cults and heresies.

Yep. Conclusive proof.

David Brog is inadmissable, as quoting from anywhere but Scripture is a key ingredient in the creation of cults and heresies.

 

[razeontherock]

Well I certainly hope anyone reading this can harmonize strong points between what should not be competing factions. Sorta brings this to mind:

"For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:"

Turn turn turn

 

[The4thrider]

Well I certainly hope anyone reading this can harmonize strong points between what should not be competing factions. Sorta brings this to mind:

"For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:"

Turn turn turn

Not to worry. I got a good handle on the discussion here. I find it very interesting. *makes some corn* plz continue.

 

[Catherineanne]

Not to worry. I got a good handle on the discussion here. I find it very interesting. *makes some corn* plz continue.

Popcorn!! Most excellent.

 

[Catherineanne]

Well I certainly hope anyone reading this can harmonize strong points between what should not be competing factions. Sorta brings this to mind:

"For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:"

Turn turn turn

True enough.

However, it isn't really competing factions. More like zealotry versus - erm - whatever the opposite of zealotry is. Contemplation, maybe. (E might say complacency. ) There is a place for both, and, of course, there is much truth in what E says, mixed with the over-exuberance, and his enthusiasm is certainly very endearing. I am getting to like chatting with him.

Just don't tell him I said so.

 

[razeontherock]

So can we have E-zealemplation popcorn? With extra still small voice please? Garcon!

 

[Catherineanne]

So can we have E-zealemplation popcorn? With extra still small voice please? Garcon!

You can have anything you like, R.

And I will have the usual salted popcorn. Call me a traditionalist.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Sorry, are you not the person who said we are not to quote from anywhere but the Bible? I could have sworn ...



Yep. Conclusive proof.

David Brog is inadmissable, as quoting from anywhere but Scripture is a key ingredient in the creation of cults and heresies.

Agreed. My bad!

ephraim

 

[Dragons87]

Just to say welcome back dragons87. Must confess, I was a little bit worried about you as you seemed to disappear quite abruptly. It's the odd thing about forums in that you get to know people a tiny bit, but have absolutely no clue usually about what is going on behind the scenes. Not that I'm asking. Just nice to have you back.

Thanks. For a while I thought the forums took up too much of my time. I can't say I'm back for good...I'll probably be around for a bit, and then wander off somewhere else...and then come back...

I'm fickle like that.

I am sorry, but this is not the case. There is no 'must' about it; there is a choice. There is no constraint on Christians to quote the Bible when stating their moral position. We can quote anyone and anything we like, the same as any other person.

It has been a long long time since I last posted anything, so I am reminded to read everything I type before I post it in case I give an impression that I did not intend to give.

My intended meaning is not that Christians are compelled to quote the Bible whenever they engage in moral debate, but that it is normal to expect that Christians engaged in a moral debate will quote the Bible; it is quite likely that they will. So complaining about it, as several posters are doing, seems a bit weird.

It all made sense in Chinese, I swear.

As a Pacifist, for example, I would be more likely to quote Gandhi, because his words on this issue summarise most effectively what I believe. This does not mean that I place Gandhi above the Scriptures (although in Pacifist terms he probably does rate higher than some books of the Bible at least), but it does mean that the quotation is likely to resonate with more than just Christians.

Perhaps you should reconsider your pacifist stance?

I say that not only as a Christian, but as a volunteer soldier.

It is a bit sad if Christians can't think of any other arguments for their pov, than those found in Scripture. Rather lacking in imagination, I would say.

Surely, the ability to make quotations roll off the tongue demonstrates a wide reading and perhaps a good memory. It is the interpretation and application of the quotation that requires imagination.

Given that, a Christian may interpret, explain and apply quotes, even only from the Bible, with much imagination and freshness.

Don't forget that the word of God is living and active (Heb 4:12). It's not supposed to be just some words we can recite when we want to win a debate, but:

"Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart."

 

[ephraimanesti]

I am heartened to see I am no longer your 'dear sister.' I wondered how long that would last.

MY DEAR SISTER,

That's a just a tad harsh, don't you think! Whatever happened to Jesus' injunction, "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you." (John 15:12)

Meanwhile, I don't remember seeing boorishness listed as one of the fruit of the Spirit.

That's a just a tad harsh, don't you think! Whatever happened to Jesus' injunction, "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you." (John 15:12)

Nice attitude. Tell me, do you ever get a second invitation to dinner?

i have found that if the Truth is spoken with Love and Compassion, it is always received in the spirit in which it was imparted. It may or may not be accepted or acted upon, but it is almost always chalked up as a sign of Love and concern--which it is--and responded to accordingly.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

This is the Gospel Truth.

What we might call the sledgehammer approach to evangelism.

Yes, St. Paul wasn't one to mince words and probably didn't own a part of velvet gloves--but, you know, he brought a multitude of souls into the Kingdom.

Good luck with that.

Well, i will certainly never be worthy to hold Paul's coat, but i am not ashamed of what i have been able to do just by following directions to the best of my limited ability.

Meanwhile, you might care to revisit 1 Corinthians 13.

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

Indeed so.

You know, i honestly don't know where you are coming from with this--i just don't. If there is one thing the Spirit has taught me and continues to teach me--AND INSISTS UPON QUITE FORCEFULLY--is that each person i speak to about Him is a beloved child in dire need of connecting with His Love, and i have always acted accordingly. Part of doing so is to discuss "Sin, Righteousness, and Judgment"--Lovingly but also honestly and fully. Each opportunity for contact is potentially the final one, and should be treated as such.

End of story.

ephraim