Superiority Complex.

[hikersong]

You realize all this really says is to stop the barbaric practices of the dark ages?
Seems those stopped, some time back.

This is rather different than the way you presented it. Just sayin'

Well, if you ignore the physical torturing still going on today, and the mental torture (no less horrific) of scaring children, intentionally or not,into faith, according to some on this site these barbaric practises will be getting sanctioned by God when we die. Just sayin'

But glad to hear you don't believe in hell for the "unrighteous". (I'd got a different impression. So I would be seriously interested on hearing your own views on hell and it's likely occupants. Clear views, not opaque ones. I don't want to criticise unfairly. I know their are views of hell which amount to a sort of justice which I can more easily identifiy with.)

 

[JohnCR]

In response to the OP, I think that believing you have won God's favor gives way to a little bit of a superiority complex. However, that could be considered the case for any religion. I would bet that most people think they are the eyes-wide-open intelligent individual amongst an army of mindless sheep. The same arrogance applies to any atheist who thinks they can explain in full the origins of life based on our current scientific knowledge. The best and most honest answer to our origins has always been "I don't know."

The most convincing Christians that I've ever met are those who show true humility and admit that they DO NOT have all the answers. If someone isn't willing to answer "I don't know" to something they don't know, then it really throws off their credibility.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Well, if you ignore the physical torturing still going on today, and the mental torture (no less horrific) of scaring children, intentionally or not,into faith, according to some on this site these barbaric practises will be getting sanctioned by God when we die. Just sayin'

But glad to hear you don't believe in hell for the "unrighteous". (I'd got a different impression. So I would be seriously interested on hearing your own views on hell and it's likely occupants. Clear views, not opaque ones. I don't want to criticise unfairly. I know their are views of hell which amount to a sort of justice which I can more easily identifiy with.)

MY FRIEND,

The Justice of hell is that it is freely chosen by those who go there.

Want no part of God's proffered Love?--fine, you may enjoy the lack of it for all eternity.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[JohnCR]

MY FRIEND,

The Justice of hell is that it is freely chosen by those who go there.

Want no part of God's proffered Love?--fine, you may enjoy the lack of it for all eternity.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

This is the most frustrating thing for nonbelievers. You set it out like a simple choice, when really it is a matter of believing in something based on little evidence. I doubt many people would willingly choose hell over heaven if God just poofed in and asked them to choose.

 

[ephraimanesti]

In response to the OP, I think that believing you have won God's favor gives way to a little bit of a superiority complex. However, that could be considered the case for any religion. I would bet that most people think they are the eyes-wide-open intelligent individual amongst an army of mindless sheep. The same arrogance applies to any atheist who thinks they can explain in full the origins of life based on our current scientific knowledge. The best and most honest answer to our origins has always been "I don't know."

The most convincing Christians that I've ever met are those who show true humility and admit that they DO NOT have all the answers. If someone isn't willing to answer "I don't know" to something they don't know, then it really throws off their credibility.

MY FRIEND,

The only important answer to all questions is "GOD."

How God does what He does is often indeed unknowable, but His existence--even though qualitatively and quantitatively not understandable by our puny human minds--is self-evident to anyone with the honesty to open their eyes and look around them. THAT is the starting point for any real knowledge of the nature of reality.

"What may be known about God is plain to all, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

"For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools." (Romans 1:19-22)

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[ephraimanesti]

This is the most frustrating thing for nonbelievers. You set it out like a simple choice, when really it is a matter of believing in something based on little evidence. I doubt many people would willingly choose hell over heaven if God just poofed in and asked them to choose.

However, if God "just poofed in", freewill would be lost, and without freewill, Love is impossible, and without Love, God's desire for a loving relationship with us would be impossible.

ephraim

 

[JohnCR]

MY FRIEND,

The only important answer to all questions is "GOD."

How God does what He does is often indeed unknowable, but His existence--even though qualitatively and quantitatively not understandable by our puny human minds--is self-evident to anyone with the honesty to open their eyes and look around them. THAT is the starting point for any real knowledge of the nature of reality.

"What may be known about God is plain to all, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

"For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools." (Romans 1:19-22)

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

Ok, well, you can believe that the existence of God is completely obvious if you want. Clearly, I don't agree with you. The copout here is that if I don't see God, you can say I didn't honestly open my eyes.

 

[JohnCR]

However, if God "just poofed in", freewill would be lost, and without freewill, Love is impossible, and without Love, God's desire for a loving relationship with us would be impossible.

ephraim

God and I have different definitions of freewill then. I don't see my lack of faith in God as a choice at all. I couldn't believe even if I wanted to.

 

[ephraimanesti]

God and I have different definitions of freewill then. I don't see my lack of faith in God as a choice at all. I couldn't believe even if I wanted to.

MY FRIEND,

Your difference of views on the subject of freewill has to do with your vision of yourself as nothing more than an evolved animal, while God, your Heavenly Father, sees you as His beloved child.

If your lack of faith was NOT a choice, there would be no Christians.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[ephraimanesti]

Ok, well, you can believe that the existence of God is completely obvious if you want. Clearly, I don't agree with you. The copout here is that if I don't see God, you can say I didn't honestly open my eyes.

Well . . . yes. i opened my eyes and i see Him. Hundreds of millions of others have opened their eyes and have seen Him. What other conclusion can i come to?

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[JohnCR]

MY FRIEND,

Your difference of views on the subject of freewill has to do with your vision of yourself as nothing more than an evolved animal, while God, your Heavenly Father, sees you as His beloved child.

If your lack of faith was NOT a choice, there would be no Christians.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

Do you like Coconut? Asparagus? Escargo?

If you said no to any of these things, would you say you "chose" not to like them? If it is indeed not a choice, then no human being should like the foods you don't like. That's not the case though. I don't know why some people are more predisposed to believe in God(s) and others not. I do not believe that it is a choice though.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Do you like Coconut? Asparagus? Escargo?

If you said no to any of these things, would you say you "chose" not to like them? If it is indeed not a choice, then no human being should like the foods you don't like. That's not the case though. I don't know why some people are more predisposed to believe in God(s) and others not. I do not believe that it is a choice though.

Forgive me for pointing out that belief in God is not on a level with food preferences--God is a fact while taste is a choice. That you confuse the two appears to be part of your problem.

We are ALL predisposed to believe in God--our Creator hard-wired us that way. However, by exercising His gift of freewill, we can easily overcome that predisposition--as the existence of atheists can attest.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[razeontherock]

Actually, I find that some of the worst interpretations of Scripture come from Christians who have NO grounding whatsoever in history, cultural studies or scriptural exegesis whatsoever, yet feel that having been "born again from above" somehow turns them into uber-scholars by default.

It would be very interesting to me to compare interpretations of Scripture with you, to find out what you consider worst or best. The only people that have ever been able to keep up with me have a Phd in divinity, and usually only reveal that after lengthy discussion by asking me if I had attended their degree program. Please note I have 0 background that you value.

The theological stances they take are usually akin to what we find in that "Jesus loves you"-thread.

I caught up to the 8 pages I missed on that thread, and only responded a little to keep it simple(r). I found one thing I consider to be an error, and noted it.

Most theology students I've met so far, on the other hand, have always been quite engaging discussion partners, on account of being supplied with sufficient background knowledge to *really* make sense of the texts.

I'm not good at putting words in people's mouths, but it appears your only real issue is being confused about Divine Judgment, as if G-d could somehow choose what is and is not Just. Immutable Truth doesn't work that way! The law of sin and death is part of the world we live in, as anybody can plainly see with their own 2 eyes. That's what the flood is all about; you know, the part where he "repented Himself that He had made man?" This brought G-d's Covenant w/ us past the blood sacrifice instituted w/ Adam and Eve, to the second step. (We're at the 4th step now, with full access behind the veil, into the Most Holy Place) Salvation is G-d's plan, not our doing! Everything He has done has been to deliver it to our door. This is all plainly evident in Scripture, and needs no "grounding whatsoever in history, cultural studies or scriptural exegesis."

So how is it that you, Mark, and our many apostate Christians have missed this?

 

[JohnCR]

Forgive me for pointing out that belief in God is not on a level with food preferences--God is a fact while taste is a choice. That you confuse the two appears to be part of your problem.

We are ALL predisposed to believe in God--our Creator hard-wired us that way. However, by exercising His gift of freewill, we can easily overcome that predisposition--as the existence of atheists can attest.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

It was just an example. If you want something more significant to compare it to, compare it with morality. Do you think you can change your morals on a dime? Do you even think morals are a choice at all? Not to say people's morals or beliefs can't change over time, but I disagree that it is a conscious choice. I'm not going to wake up tomorrow and say, "You know, I've just chosen to believe that killing people is OK."

EDIT: Not to mention that people believed in different Gods than yours for thousands of years before Jesus. I wouldn't call that predisposed necessarily.

 

[hikersong]

It would be very interesting to me to compare interpretations of Scripture. This brought G-d's Covenant w/ us past the blood sacrifice instituted w/ Adam and Eve, to the second step. (We're at the 4th step now, with full access behind the veil, into the Most Holy Place) Salvation is G-d's plan, not our doing! Everything He has done has been to deliver it to our door. This is all plainly evident in Scripture, and needs no "grounding whatsoever in history, cultural studies or scriptural exegesis."

So how is it that you, Mark, and our many apostate Christians have missed this?

Perhaps you could answer this question yourself. Why have we missed this in your opinion? We are clearly all a little too ignorant to understand or even know the reasons, so it might help if you put us right...again.

 

[ephraimanesti]

It was just an example. If you want something more significant to compare it to, compare it with morality. Do you think you can change your morals on a dime? Do you even think morals are a choice at all? Not to say people's morals or beliefs can't change over time, but I disagree that it is a conscious choice. I'm not going to wake up tomorrow and say, "You know, I've just chosen to believe that killing people is OK."

MY FRIEND,

Morals are indeed a choice--it is just a question of who you choose to listen to when formulating them: The Holy Spirit or the pop culture around you. A good example would be abortion: Our twisted social norms now dictate that murdering unborn children is a great and precious social good, the right to which must be protected at all costs. God, on the other hand, based upon His written Word, considers the unnecessary taking of ANY human life a most heinous sin--especially a helpless child.

EDIT: Not to mention that people believed in different Gods than yours for thousands of years before Jesus. I wouldn't call that predisposed necessarily.

The fact that ALL peoples have believed in God(s) since the beginning of time proves the point. The fact that many have erred in their beliefs ABOUT God has to do with time/place/culture and, of course, the reality that the only Truth we can know for sure about God is what information He provides through revelation, given that He is far and away beyond our ability to comprehend without His aid.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[razeontherock]

Well, if you ignore the physical torturing still going on today, and the mental torture (no less horrific) of scaring children, intentionally or not,into faith,

Wait WHAT??? You can't be "scared into Faith." MODS: please take note this is why it's vital to be able to speak freely!

I guarantee you if this is how I viewed Faith I would NOT be a Christian! So much like my statement to B&W, (one of our very few Jews here) if that's all you encountered of Christianity, you made a good choice by getting away from it.

There are some things we can know:

The fear of G-d is the beginning of wisdom.
Faith and fear are opposites.
Perfect love casts out fear.
Salvation is put in us by G-d, and to be worked out by us. With fear and trembling.
So the fear of the Lord endures.

Is that paradoxical? YUP. Yet I have no problem reconciling all that. Again, the train of thought (whatever thread that's in) that it takes the Holy Spirit to understand this comes into play here. This is intentional! G-d actually enjoys our company, and won't allow us to explain certain things to others, reserving that for Himself BECAUSE HE LIKE IT.

But glad to hear you don't believe in hell for the "unrighteous".

I never said that. I've done a disgusting amount of reading on that topic in the past few days; several threads on it with good points made all around.

So I would be seriously interested on hearing your own views on hell and it's likely occupants. Clear views, not opaque ones. I don't want to criticise unfairly. I know their are views of hell which amount to a sort of justice which I can more easily identifiy with.)

Heh, funny you should use that word "view." You can read about my "view" of hell in the dreams and visions sub-forum. It was a physical, literal experience, and I was very much awake. It didn't change my life in the least, and I only posted it in response to many people pressuring me about it. I don't see how it would help anybody, unless they were questioning the reality of it. You can also find 2 other threads I started in that forum which would help anybody to better see what G-d has in mind. I will start another, which will probably be my last one there.

Also funny you should say you "don't want to criticize unfairly," since that's exactly what you're doing. You are the lump of clay, protesting to the potter about what He's doing.

Me? I don't pretend to know if hell is for all eternity, or burns up those w/o life. I know what I saw physically, what I saw Spiritually, know I was physically lifted up out of it and was for the most part unfazed.

Here's what else we can know:

hell was not created for people;
it is G-d's will that none perish, but ALL should have Everlasting Life;
G-d's goodness and His severity are BOTH beyond our capacity to comprehend.
All Judgment has been given to the Son. That "relationship" thing? Yeah, it matters.

 

[razeontherock]

Wow does THIS ever reveal some important ground to cover!!

In response to the OP, I think that believing you have won God's favor

STOP! That's impossible. And for precisely this reason:

I think that believing you have won God's favor
gives way to a little bit of a superiority complex.

Do I need to "throw verses at you" to establish this?

However, that could be considered the case for any religion.

So now you realize yet one more way Christianity is unique from all religions. Thanks for pointing that out! I had overlooked that one. Duh me.

arrogance applies to any atheist who thinks they can explain in full the origins of life based on our current scientific knowledge.

Since the term has come up recently and is ongoing in a few discussions -

THAT is integrity!! Thank you. It isn't so rare among scientists, but almost non-existent in academia.

 

[JohnCR]

MY FRIEND,

Morals are indeed a choice--it is just a question of who you choose to listen to when formulating them: The Holy Spirit or the pop culture around you. A good example would be abortion: Our twisted social norms now dictate that murdering unborn children is a great and precious social good, the right to which must be protected at all costs. God, on the other hand, based upon His written Word, considers the unnecessary taking of ANY human life a most heinous sin--especially a helpless child.


The fact that ALL peoples have believed in God(s) since the beginning of time proves the point. The fact that many have erred in their beliefs ABOUT God has to do with time/place/culture and, of course, the reality that the only Truth we can know for sure about God is what information He provides through revelation, given that He is far and away beyond our ability to comprehend without His aid.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

I guess we have hit a roadblock then. What you consider a choice, I consider not a choice. In the same way that I'm sure you can't choose to not believe in God, I can't choose to believe in him. I'm far from convinced.

There are so many factors affecting whether or not we believe in a particular religion. Given that most of these factors are out of our control (region, parents, etc.), I would not call it a choice.

Also, don't assume that being atheist means I automatically defend abortion.

 

[JohnCR]

Wow does THIS ever reveal some important ground to cover!!



STOP! That's impossible. And for precisely this reason:



Do I need to "throw verses at you" to establish this?



So now you realize yet one more way Christianity is unique from all religions. Thanks for pointing that out! I had overlooked that one. Duh me.



Since the term has come up recently and is ongoing in a few discussions -

THAT is integrity!! Thank you. It isn't so rare among scientists, but almost non-existent in academia.

I'm going to be completely honest: I have no idea what you're talking about. I can't tell if you're joking by taking some of the things I said out of context or what.