Superiority Complex.

[razeontherock]

You may not have attended college courses on the matter, but you've obviously devoted some time and energy to pursuing the subject - as have I, in spite of having no affiliation with our department of theology.

Thank you for that, but my point is while it does take effort, formal instruction isn't necessary and in many cases serves primarily to cloud the significant issues, from what I've seen. (There's a reason why Seminary has been nick-named cemetary, and they churn out unbelievers at just as high a rate as the rest of academia)

That's the ONLY thing you disagree with re: Duckybill's posts?

I think the term I used is I found one thing to be in error. That's a strong term! There may be many more that I disagree with but in all fairness, most of the substance he posted in that thread wasn't active statements on his part, but answering questions he was pressed into. It may well be all that all of that he's never had the need to think through, and just relied on submission before His Lord. Instead of faulting him for that, I'll point out he's probably a lot more skillful at that than I am. :o It's a big weakness of mine.

the claim that eternal torment qualifies as "justice" by any conceivable standard strikes me as downright atrocious.

I think the way you (and others here) recoil at this concept belies that this is an emotional trigger for you. As you yourself pointed out in this same post I'm responding to, it's quite possible to hold to Scripture and refute the claim of eternal torture. I would go so far as to say that re: participation in Christianity as a personal walk, the point is moot; however, something tells me that idea would need to be expanded upon a LOT before anybody here would see my point (LOL)

Ah, we're taking certain premises for granted once more? I see.

This was in response to me saying the law of sin and death is readily apparent. On some levels I'll grant you your comment is justified, but on other levels it's existence is self-evident. You see the fate of law breakers; prison, etc. None of it is good. It doesn't take a terribly observant person to see that the 'internal effects' of such a lifestyle corrode their mind, spirit, sense of right and wrong, etc. It's quite possible for people like that to become downright nasty and untrustworthy. While people who lead virtuous lives tend to grow an inner beauty as they age. Can you honestly tell me you've never noticed?

How can an omniscient being regret its deeds?

This is in response to one of the (many) difficult saying of Scripture, that at the time of Noah's flood it "repented G-d that He had made man." You'll find the source of His regret was not His deeds, but OURS. As in, He regretted the decision to give us dominion in the first place, seeing the unthinkable things we'd done with it. And yet the primary source of that wasn't human at all! Despite the short time frame, things got rather complicated in a hurry. Even as a child I could see that was a way of introducing elements of a storyline that has value, regardless of historicity.

Deity was conceived of as far more human, far less exalted, and far more concerned with keeping the human population in check. We have corresponding myths in the writings of neighbouring peoples, where the deities find that Man has grown too numerous, and that the clamour of cities disturbs the peace of the gods.

I don't find this claim, or the "corresponding" analogy to be fair or accurate. You won't find a Scriptural instance where Deity was anything other than exalted by G-d's people being obedient. I'll grant you that He's only ever revealed Himself within the individual's capacity to relate. (A Divinely given constraint ) But to say a global flood sparing only 8 people is "population control?" No, that's not a valid comparison; this is something completely different.

And yet, you'll find hundreds of different interpretations of scripture, even within Christianity. People who believe in Predestination. People who believe in free will. People who believe in "once saved, always saved". People who believe that you can fall away. People who believe that the unsaved will simply be annihilated. People who believe that Hell is a perpetual state. People who believe that descriptions of hell are figurative. People who believe that Hell is a literal lake of fire. People who believe that heaven and hell are both God's Presence, experienced by the saved and the sinner, respectively. People who believe that hell is merely the absence of God. People who believe that it is our disembodied souls that are taken to heaven or hell, the instant we die. People who believe that we'll lie dormant until Judgment Day, to be called forth in our re-awakened bodies. People who believe that the Heavenly Jerusalem is a literal place with literal streets of gold and literal crowns for those who have excelled in life. People who believe that the book of Revelation is deeply symbolic.

And the thing is: virtually ALL of these positions can be backed up with Scripture, one way or the other. Jonathan Edwards's spider-burning ogre-god is in many ways just as scriptural as Martin Luther King's benevolent Father in Heaven.

This deserves a thread all it's own, and I'll start it. Can I call it "discussing doctrines w/ WW?" Suffice it to say now that much of what you wrote there can be harmonized! But there are some pretty important points on that subject, and I bet you have some too.

I have a question for you: if God wants all to be saved - do you think it possible that He might FAIL?

A fair question, and I expect you won't like my answer. Ephraim's of "sadly yes" may be simpler, but mine is more verbose:

if all are not saved, it's not His failure. Is the failure limited to that of His people, such as my first Pastor's vision that I posted which set you and a few others off? I don't think so, but I'm in the habit of not making up stuff I don't know. I know G-d grieves, and it's possible for each of us to cause Him grief. I've actually encountered a deeply Spiritual NC (who has taught me and been my mentor at skiing as an adult) who has the revelation / perception that for the Divine to know all must be ... painful. I think he has a point. I wouldn't say this is the "opposite" side of Him from what you've seen most, but I would say this is perhaps a very different facet of Him from what you're familiar with. (I almost felt like using "Him/Her" there, but hopefully you know what I mean anyway)

Which could bring up yet another aside: is the Loving side feminine, while the enduring pain part masculine? I have no idea of any such clear-cut distinctions, but here's something I hope everybody here can relate to:

"when my heart is overwhelmed: lead me to the rock [that] is higher than I." (Psalm 61:2)

 

[razeontherock]

Yes. The connection is us.

This is a beautifully simple thought, in that it's so powerfully profound. I could really use it as a launching pad to jump up on my soapbox, but I'll restrain myself. Maybe a little.

Since you used the term "the ineffable," and I can neither fault it nor think of anything better, is there anybody on a Spiritual path that isn't interested on how to connect a person to the ineffable? Or how to strengthen that connection, or help another struggling with it?

This is what the cross of Christ is. This is why indwelling sin is significant. It's the only "point of contact" between us and the ineffable. He literally took our sin upon Himself, (not just our sins but our sin) and became sin.

This is historically verifiable! Blood sacrifice was carried out before this because people could tell the difference it made, which goes right back to Cain and Abel. Murder wasn't committed over small talk, it was real; one's sacrifice was accepted, the other rejected. As time after the crucifixion passed, large scale blood sacrifice diminished more and more. Why? People no longer got anything out of it, and it was more and more a dumb ritual. Exceptions? Look at the Incas, and consider the focus of their worship. It explains a lot.

 

[razeontherock]

Everyday.. I question my beliefs, and if you thought that being a "Christian" was a one time choice, I have some very bad news for you.

Ah, familiarity with the refiner's fire! A sure sign you are my Brother, and possess eternal life now. Getting rid of the junk is part of the Priesthood; we're to do that morning and night!

 

[Glass*Soul]

This is a beautifully simple thought, in that it's so powerfully profound. I could really use it as a launching pad to jump up on my soapbox, but I'll restrain myself. Maybe a little.

Since you used the term "the ineffable," and I can neither fault it nor think of anything better, is there anybody on a Spiritual path that isn't interested on how to connect a person to the ineffable? Or how to strengthen that connection, or help another struggling with it?

This is what the cross of Christ is. This is why indwelling sin is significant. It's the only "point of contact" between us and the ineffable. He literally took our sin upon Himself, (not just our sins but our sin) and became sin.

This is historically verifiable! Blood sacrifice was carried out before this because people could tell the difference it made, which goes right back to Cain and Abel. Murder wasn't committed over small talk, it was real; one's sacrifice was accepted, the other rejected. As time after the crucifixion passed, large scale blood sacrifice diminished more and more. Why? People no longer got anything out of it, and it was more and more a dumb ritual. Exceptions? Look at the Incas, and consider the focus of their worship. It explains a lot.

You've said some interesting things here. I would like to pursue the discussion further but am waiting to find out if it is off topic to the forum. I will probably have to leave for work before I receive an answer, so we may have to continue this further in some other location if we are both still interested.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Is the butterfly no longer a caterpillar?

Well, no--in the same sense that a holder of a PhD is no longer an undergraduate.

ephraim

 

[ephraimanesti]

Have you ever wondered why you believe as you do?

Because i have no choice but to believe once my Lord's claims and teachings were put to the test and found to be reliable, trustworthy, and worth the changes in myself necessary to appropriate them.

i must confess that i spent many many years trying to avoid coming to the above obvious conclusion and decision. i grew up loathing Christians and now i are one--go figure!

THANK YOU, LORD!

ephraim

 

[ephraimanesti]

If people can't understand the Bible without the Holy Spirit then it throws out all the claims of being converted by reading the Bible, especially for churches that believe the Holy Spirit isn't imparted until Baptism. You can't have both.

MY FRIEND,

The Bible is written for all--from the most naive inquirer to the most adept disciple. Those seeking salvation will readily understand that which pertains to them--even little children grasp the necessary basics quite readily (Mark 10:14, 15)

Following the entrance into the Kingdom based on one's decision and surrender to the "elementary teachings" which lead to Salvation and the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the teachings which lead to maturity in Christ begin. This process/progression is described in Hebrews Chapter 6.

This progression to full maturity is the task of the Holy Spirit who makes what is taught understandable and quickens it to one's personal needs and use.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[razeontherock]

Wow Ephraim - I'm humbled by how great these answers are! I especially like this part: "Because I have no choice but to believe once my Lord's claims and teachings were put to the test and found to be reliable, trustworthy, and worth the changes in myself necessary to appropriate them."

Deserves one of these:

YouTube - Edith Ann - "And thats the truth"

 

[Lord Emsworth]

"Plus the unbeliever can't understand the Scripture like the believer does since the unbeliever does not have the Spirit of God to illumine him."

This kind of sentence is common in Christian philosophy. I find it makes any unbeliever automatically inferior. It irritates me.

What do people think of the comment and what do people think of using scripture in moral debate?

Can't really say that such a statement irritates me. It generally does make some things very easy though, for instance what exactly one has to think of this "Spirit of God" illumination. I mean if people happen to exhibit severe problems wrt reading/understanding the Bible and talk about spirit illuminated scripture understanding then there are just so many conclusions you can draw based on these premises.

And moral debates? I generally avoid these. They tend to be about as pointless as political debates. Religious topics on the other hand ...

 

[Riski]

I really can not understand how believing in a fairy tale would somehow make someone feel superior to people who didn't believe in that particular fairy tale,
granted they are starting from a very low mental point so any step up is in the right direction to make them feel good and better about themselves, but superior?

Education seems to be the key, I think I'm right in saying that the majority of the worlds believers are not the most educated people the human race has to offer, it seems the more education people have the less they rely on a mentally produced protector to look after their interests, they are able to do it for themselves.

 

[razeontherock]

granted they [believers] are starting from a very low mental point so any step up is in the right direction

WATCH IT. Some of the world's smartest people are believers. I've tested higher than over 99% of the Nation on every aptitude test imaginable. G-d makes our whole race combined look as dumb as sheep. And sheep are DUMB!

 

[ephraimanesti]

double post--SORRY!

 

[ephraimanesti]

Education seems to be the key, I think I'm right in saying that the majority of the worlds believers are not the most educated people the human race has to offer

MY DEAR MISGUIDED FRIEND,

Fortunately, God does not agree with the hubristic silliness you expound! He states,

"I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE; THE INTELLIGENCE OF THE INTELLIGENT I WILL FRUSTRATE." (Isaiah 29:14)

St. Paul, (one of the most educated men of his day, by the way), goes on to explain,

"WHERE IS THE WISE MAN? WHERE IS THE SCHOLAR? WHERE IS THE PHILOSOPHER OF THIS AGE? HAS NOT GOD MADE FOOLISH THE WISDOM OF THE WORLD? FOR SINCE IN THE WISDOM OF GOD THE WORLD THROUGH ITS WISDOM DID NOT KNOW HIM, GOD WAS PLEASED THROUGH THE FOOLISHNESS OF WHAT WAS PREACHED TO SAVE THOSE WHO BELIEVE. . . . FOR THE FOOLISHNESS OF GOD IS WISER THAN MAN'S WISDOM, AND THE WEAKNESS OF GOD IS STRONGER THAN MAN'S STRENGTH. . . .THEREFORE, AS IT IS WRITTEN: 'LET HIM WHO BOASTS BOAST IN THE LORD.' "(I Corinthians 1:20-21, 25, 31)

Perhaps a good summation might be, BETTER TO BE AN UNEDUCATED FOOL STANDING IN THE LIGHT OF GOD'S KINGDOM, THAN AN EDUCATED GENIUS CRAWLING ABOUT IN THE DARKNESS OF HELL.

Sounds like you have already made your choice.
Not too bright, that! (Pun intended.)

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[Riski]

MY DEAR MISGUIDED FRIEND,

Fortunately, God does not agree with the hubristic silliness you expound! He states,

"I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE; THE INTELLIGENCE OF THE INTELLIGENT I WILL FRUSTRATE." (Isaiah 29:14)

St. Paul, (one of the most educated men of his day, by the way), goes on to explain,

"WHERE IS THE WISE MAN? WHERE IS THE SCHOLAR? WHERE IS THE PHILOSOPHER OF THIS AGE? HAS NOT GOD MADE FOOLISH THE WISDOM OF THE WORLD? FOR SINCE IN THE WISDOM OF GOD THE WORLD THROUGH ITS WISDOM DID NOT KNOW HIM, GOD WAS PLEASED THROUGH THE FOOLISHNESS OF WHAT WAS PREACHED TO SAVE THOSE WHO BELIEVE. . . . FOR THE FOOLISHNESS OF GOD IS WISER THAN MAN'S WISDOM, AND THE WEAKNESS OF GOD IS STRONGER THAN MAN'S STRENGTH. . . .THEREFORE, AS IT IS WRITTEN: 'LET HIM WHO BOASTS BOAST IN THE LORD.' "(I Corinthians 1:20-21, 25, 31)

Perhaps a good summation might be, BETTER TO BE AN UNEDUCATED FOOL STANDING IN THE LIGHT OF GOD'S KINGDOM, THAN AN EDUCATED GENIUS CRAWLING ABOUT IN THE DARKNESS OF HELL.

Sounds like you have already made your choice.
Not too bright, that! (Pun intended.)

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

For a start quoting other people is the first act of the uneducated, that's why people who do not understand the religion keep putting up verses from the bible in the hope that it will somehow back up their belief.

What is one of the first things you would write if you were starting a new religion?
Do not listen to educated people because their education is nothing compared to Gods, then you would write something like: people will call you crazy for believing in God but it's they who are crazy not you, then: you will have no other Gods but me, all religions have something similar.

BETTER TO BE AN UNEDUCATED FOOL STANDING IN THE LIGHT OF GOD'S KINGDOM, THAN AN EDUCATED GENIUS CRAWLING ABOUT IN THE DARKNESS OF HELL.

Why not be both educated and standing in the light of Gods kingdom?
well we both know why don't we? one doesn't go with the other does it?
in fairness if a person is educated and still believes then they must obviously believe in spite of their education,
like Prof Kurt Wise, apparently he was indoctrinated before he was educated, as are most educated believers.

As for making my choice, I had to choose between nothing and nothing so I naturally chose nothing, what else could I choose? I didn't have the benifit of someone guiding me from birth into a belief (of their choice) which would now dominate my life, I know that had you been me and I you we would now be on different sides of the fence to the one we have now, as they say: there but for the grace of God go I, which of us is the luckier? only we can answer that.

 

[razeontherock]

in fairness if a person is educated and still believes then they must obviously believe in spite of their education,

Simply not true. This is a bold face lie, I've told you that, and you are going out of your way to be belittling towards others. Where I grew up you would be KILLED for less! Seriously. Having nothing to do with any belief, just for speaking so disrespectfully. The only reason you would say such a thing is because you're trying to prove they could not kill you, and when they try you'd better make sure they can't try again.

Thank G-d I don't live in that environment any longer.

 

[JohnCR]

http://www.christianforums.com/users/131538/@Ephraimanesti:

I don't really care either way if you quote the Bible. However, I can say that it's not going to mean anything to a non-Christian. Quoting the Bible is an appeal to authority and doesn't work if the person doesn't believe in the Bible.


@Riski:

I wouldn't go around stereotyping theists as uneducated or stupid. You said yourself that one of the biggest factors is what religion people are raised in. In reality, intelligence has very little to do with religion at all.

 

[ephraimanesti]

MY DEAR FRIEND,

i'm at a loss as to how to even begin to address what you have written. i keep thinking that perhaps you are joking and what you are writing is with tongue firmly in cheek, but then it keeps coming and coming and it becomes obvious that you are indeed serious, so i am stuck with a quandary--your bigotry doesn't really deserve a rebuttal, and if one were given it would change nothing, it is late and i'm tired, and frankly bigotry [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]es me off so i worry about responding out of anger rather than Love.

Let me, however, just make a quick pass through this unpleasant task and then call it a night.

For a start quoting other people is the first act of the uneducated, that's why people who do not understand the religion keep putting up verses from the bible in the hope that it will somehow back up their belief.

Being able to reference and quote appropriate Scripture is a sign that Scripture has been studied and the lessons it offers learned. When discussing Spiritual matters, it is appropriate to quote God's chosen Spirit-inspired teachers whose wisdom is contained and preserved in the Bible. Christianity is based upon God's revelation of Himself through His chosen prophets, teachers, and ultimately His only begotten Son. These revelations are what our beliefs as Christians are based upon, and i believe that it is much more honest to quote the writing of those upon whose revelations our beliefs are based upon, than to pretend that we are reinventing the wheel and expound on spiritual matters as a "certified spiritual expert" in and of ourselves. My personal ideas mean nothing/God's Truths are EVERYTHING. If you were expounding on The Theory of Relativity, would you not quote Einstein?

What is one of the first things you would write if you were starting a new religion?
Do not listen to educated people because their education is nothing compared to Gods, then you would write something like: people will call you crazy for believing in God but it's they who are crazy not you, then: you will have no other Gods but me, all religions have something similar.

These facts were written as cautionary informed warnings--because the statements are ABSOLUTELY TRUE. "THERE IS A WAY THAT SEEMS RIGHT TO A MAN, BUT IN THE END IT LEADS TO DEATH."(Proverbs 14:12) One has only to pick up the morning paper or watch the evening news to verity that this piece of wisdom is as true or truer today as it was 3000 years ago--in our "educated ignorance" we are destroying ourselves.

BETTER TO BE AN UNEDUCATED FOOL STANDING IN THE LIGHT OF GOD'S KINGDOM, THAN AN EDUCATED GENIUS CRAWLING ABOUT IN THE DARKNESS OF HELL.

Why not be both educated and standing in the light of Gods kingdom?

Well, yeah! You appear to be uneducated regarding the fact that our whole Western Civilization and all it has produced rested on the foundation of our Judeo-Christian heritage. David Brog, writing about those who attack Christianity, stated, "THESE CRITICS EMPLOY THE IDEAS, VALUES, AND VOCABULARY THEY HAVE INHERITED FROM THE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN TRADITION TO SIT IN JUDGMENT ON THAT TRADITION AND FIND IT WANTING." This seems to me to be an excellent case-study in the fine art of hypocrisy--not to mention hubris and biting the hand that feeds you.

As for making my choice, I had to choose between nothing and nothing so I naturally chose nothing, what else could I choose.

You could have done what millions of believers have done over thousands of years over the whole face of this planet--CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THE TRUTH, ACCEPT REALITY, AND SURRENDER TO GOD. Anything less is dishonest nonsense.

I didn't have the benifit of someone guiding me from birth into a belief (of their choice) which would now dominate my life

More's the pity! With some proper guidance, you would not be wasting your time--not to mention your life--drifting about in a sea of darkness. As God's Word through Solomon (one of His chosen teachers He picked to educate us) states, "RAISE OF A CHILD IN THE WAY HE SHOULD GO, AND HE WILL NOT TURN FROM IT WHEN HE IS OLD."(Proverbs 22:6) Obviously, the converse is likewise true.

I know that had you been me and I you we would now be on different sides of the fence to the one we have now, as they say: there but for the grace of God go I, which of us is the luckier? only we can answer that.

Well, guess what my friend--THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO LUCK INVOLVED. i was not raised a Christian and i grew up abhorring Christianity. i lived 45 or so years of my life in the same darkness your are presently trapped in. We are on different sides of the fence today ONLY because i became, in later life, so desperate for the TRUTH that i became willing to follow wherever it led--MAY YOU BY GOD'S GRACE APPROPRIATE THE NECESSARY WISDOM TO DO THE SAME!--and it led to the open Loving arms of my Savior-God. ALL GLORY TO HIM FOR HIS GRACE AND GREAT MERCY BY WHICH HE LEAD ME HOME!

He will do the same for you at the bending of a knee.

Good night!

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[ephraimanesti]

http://www.christianforums.com/users/131538/@Ephraimanesti:

I don't really care either way if you quote the Bible. However, I can say that it's not going to mean anything to a non-Christian. Quoting the Bible is an appeal to authority and doesn't work if the person doesn't believe in the Bible.

MY FRIEND,

Your point is noted, but the fact of the matter is that EVERYTHING rests upon authority and quoting the highest Authority available--God--is the most appropriate way to answer questions about God that i can think of.

It works for those who are seeking Truth and are desperate enough to recognize it when it is presented. For those who don't qualify being willing to make the necessary sacrifices to attain this Prize, nothing would "work" anyway. Dilettantes have notoriously short attention spans!

As David Brog notes, "THE FACT IS THAT IF WE SEEK THE FACE OF GOD--DIRECT PROOF OF HIS EXISTENCE--WE WILL SEARCH IN VAIN. WE MUST SEEK INSTEAD THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD. INDEED, THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD--HIS LOVE, KINDNESS, AND MERCY--ARE ALL AROUND US. WHEN MEN AND WOMEN OF FAITH ACT ON THEIR FAITH TO REFLECT THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD, THEY ARE IN A VERY CONCRETE WAY BRINGING THE DIVINE INTO OUR WORLD."

It is this history of God's interactions with His Creation which is chronicled in the Bible, and this is why the Bible is used as a witnessing tool--it contains an authoritative description of God's benchmarks in dealing with His creation and His creatures. Some will hear and heed--others, unfortunately won't.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[Zoness]

What do you think of the following statement. It is a quote from a blog where they are discussing whether or not people should quote scripture in a moral debate. One person said that Christians shouldn't quote scripture when debating with non-Christians because it would be no different than quoting Dr.Seuss. Then someone agrees and says this:


"Plus the unbeliever can't understand the Scripture like the believer does since the unbeliever does not have the Spirit of God to illumine him."

This kind of sentence is common in Christian philosophy. I find it makes any unbeliever automatically inferior. It irritates me.

What do people think of the comment and what do people think of using scripture in moral debate?

(If you want to see the whole discussion here's the link: http://www.revelife.com/722660966/in-moral-debate-should-we-quote-scripture/)

Good to know I am not the only one pushed to the moral "low ground"

 

[Riski]

in fairness if a person is educated and still believes then they must obviously believe in spite of their education.

Simply not true. This is a bold face lie.

Sorry Ray but it's not a lie, Pro Kurt Wise has a Geophysical Sciences degree yet is a creationist why is that? he knows that evolution is the best explanation for how we all arrived here as we are but insists on believing in creationism, he has said he is putting aside his education because he wants to believe in creationism which he was taught on his mothers knee, Richard Dawkins called him an honest creationist.

Why do religions target children? why don't they leave children alone until children are old enough to make up their own minds? I think it has something to do with instructing them in religion BEFORE they are educated and get to a point where they want nothing to do with religion.

If parents and churches stopped indoctrinating children how long do you think religion would last?