Superiority Complex.

[Catherineanne]

I don't think you can account for all the comments that all Catholics have made to me and/or other Protestants regarding the status of my or their salvation, regardless of what your or the official position is.

I said I didn't want to get into it; I didn't say verbal or textual expressions of such beliefs, whether you hold them or not, were never made.

I'm glad you endorse that position. But as the rules say, this is not the right place to discuss this, and I'm not interested in discussing it anyway.

I can see this is an issue that has caused you some pain in the past, and I am sorry for that.

I was not intending to do that myself, just to say that if you want to criticise us, at least criticise us for what we believe, not for what we don't.

That is all. Other than that, there is no need to 'get into' anything.

 

[Mahammad]

Sadly, I really have trouble with all of the reformers.

me too.

 

[Catherineanne]

me too.

Erasmus is about the best of them, imo.

He shares with Luther a very strong aversion to fish; it made him gag. Had it not been for their aversion to fish, which was mandatory for monks to eat on Fridays, both Luther and Erasmus might have stayed happily in their monasteries, and the Reformation might never have happened. Or perhaps not for another hundred years, anyway.

But Erasmus himself is an attractive character. A genuine scholar, and not given to invective. One of the great catalysts of the Reformation, who is not often given the credit he deserves.

http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/erasmus.html

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Erasmus is commemorated in the European students' exchange program of the same name: I spent a year as an Erasmus-scholar in Finnland, back in 2005.


Fun fact: Beavers became extinct in parts of Germany because of the dietary rules imposed upon monasteries. As they were not allowed to eat meat on Fridays, they argued that beavers were actually a kind of fish, as they were water-dwelling animals. Thus, they circumvented the taboo - and nearly drove those poor animals to extinction.

 

[Dragons87]

I can see this is an issue that has caused you some pain in the past, and I am sorry for that.

I was not intending to do that myself, just to say that if you want to criticise us, at least criticise us for what we believe, not for what we don't.

That is all. Other than that, there is no need to 'get into' anything.

Thank you for your kind comments. It's not so much pain I feel, just a bit of exasperation.

I cannot judge what one believes, only on what one claims to believe. Am I supposed to know better about Catholic beliefs than a self-professed Catholic?

And then again...I'm not criticising anyone's beliefs. If you felt that I was, I do genuinely apologise.

 

[Catherineanne]

Thank you for your kind comments. It's not so much pain I feel, just a bit of exasperation.

I cannot judge what one believes, only on what one claims to believe. Am I supposed to know better? Read minds?

Reading minds is not so difficult.

But anyway. We can move on.

 

[Dragons87]

Reading minds is not so difficult.

I generally stay away from that type of behaviour because I tend to do it wrongly all the time. Maybe a guy thing? Or maybe I'm just a selfish git?

 

[Catherineanne]

I generally stay away from that type of behaviour because I tend to do it wrongly all the time. Maybe a guy thing? Or maybe I'm just a selfish git?

Selfish people never experience self doubt. Same as mad people, and narcissists. If you are afraid you might be one, you aren't.

And reading minds is just a matter of practice. Listen to what someone is saying, and then repeat it back to them, in different words. Remember what they did yesterday, and you will have a good idea what they will do tomorrow; people generally don't change.

If you understand these, then nine times out of ten people will regard you as psychic/intuitive/perceptive. What you actually are is a good listener.

 

[Dragons87]

Selfish people never experience self doubt. Same as mad people, and narcissists. If you are afraid you might be one, you aren't.

It is just a matter of practice. Listen to what someone is saying, and then repeat it back to them, in different words. Remember what they did yesterday, and you will have a good idea what they will do tomorrow; people generally don't change.

If you understand these, then nine times out of ten people will regard you as psychic/intuitive/perceptive. What you actually are is a good listener.

Oh, I'm a good listener all right. I just can't remember anything I hear. A major flaw of mine is forgetfulness. Just this Saturday I expressed amazement at a friend's lefthandedness. She sighed and said, "It's the sixth time you've pointed that out."

 

[razeontherock]

Why exactly? As far as I am aware, neither Catholics nor Orthodox believe that tradition effects salvation; that comment makes no theological sense. Salvation is always by Grace, for apostolics and non apostolics, and Grace is always an act of God, not of man.

You haven't checked your list of RC "mortal sins" in a while, have you?
They have a *slightly* different take than the Anglican Church ...

 

[sentipente]

You haven't checked your list of RC "mortal sins" in a while, have you?
They have a *slightly* different take than the Anglican Church ...

Raze, am I to believe that you do not believe that one has "to believe" in order to be saved?

 

[Josiah14]

Why exactly? As far as I am aware, neither Catholics nor Orthodox believe that tradition effects salvation; that comment makes no theological sense. Salvation is always by Grace, for apostolics and non apostolics, and Grace is always an act of God, not of man.

What makes you think they/we think as you suggest?

That really depends on what you mean by "effects", which probably should be "affects" (different word with a different meaning).

Orthodox definitely believe that it is easier to stay along the path of salvation if you have the right Tradition to guide you. In that way, it does affect salvation in the sense that, now you are not as ignorant as to what you should be doing and who God intended you to be as a person.

If Tradition didn't affect salvation, then what's the point of Tradition? Is it just an extra 'bonus' that I get for being Orthodox, or is it actually important?

 

[ephraimanesti]

Raze, am I to believe that you do not believe that one has "to believe" in order to be saved?

MY BROTHER,

A major component of "belief" is "obedience in all things."

"As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as He who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: 'Be holy, because I am holy.' " (I Peter 1:13-16)

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[b&wpac4]

A major component of "belief" is "obedience in all things."

"As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as He who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: 'Be holy, because I am holy.' " (I Peter 1:13-16)

Stop the presses!

I agree with you.

 

[sentipente]

MY BROTHER,

A major component of "belief" is "obedience in all things."

"As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as He who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: 'Be holy, because I am holy.' " (I Peter 1:13-16)

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

This text does not validate what you posited. It says nothing about belief.

 

[Josiah14]

This text does not validate what you posited. It says nothing about belief.

"14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? ... 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

James 2:14, 17-26

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Remember how this thread started out asking if scripture should be quoted to non-Christians?

Just sayin

 

[Josiah14]

Remember how this thread started out asking if scripture should be quoted to non-Christians?

Just sayin

sometimes, it's appropriate (like when expressing the views of your own faith, using Scripture to back up the fact that your faith views things in such a way is appropriate).

Note that Ephraim and I both belong to the same Christian Tradition.

I do see what you are saying, though. This thread has enjoyed lots of tangents, exchanges, and debates.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Remember how this thread started out asking if scripture should be quoted to non-Christians?

Just sayin

MY BROTHER,

The answer, of course, is YES!

Best to get the Truth directly from its Source--God's written Word--rather than have it filtered through fools like myself paraphrasing--perhaps accurately, perhaps not--that which should remain undiluted.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[ephraimanesti]

This text does not validate what you posited. It says nothing about belief.

MY BROTHER,

Spiritually speaking, for a Christian BELIEF is the flip-side of the coin from OBEDIENCE. As St. John puts it, "To all who RECEIVED Him (i.e., believed), to those who BELIEVED in His Name, He gave the right to become children of God (i.e. obedient)." (John 1:12)

Or looking at it from the flip-side first, Jesus states, "If anyone chooses to DO GOD'S WILL (i.e., be obedient), he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own (i.e., believe)." (John 7:17)

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim