Sununu rips Scott after Trump endorsement: ‘Nobody’ thinks he will unite the country

[comana]

Yes, that is why it is seems so far Parents are going to have to appeal to law and the founding documents to deal with this situation.

Again since Educators are uncomfortable with social development to a level of emotional offense at parental influence. Parents are going to have deal with this legally. We pay for our kids to be educated in academics, and preparation for college. Careful studies will probably have to included maturity, and well roundedness, to our Children are not victims of our influence.

No idea what you just said here.

 

[ralliann]

No idea what you just said here.

In short as parents gain ground in school choice, this might end up in lawsuits by educators all the way to the supreme court. I just think this is where it might have to go.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Quit twisting. To infringe on that at school is the point here. It is my freedom to do that without you or anyone else infringing on my religious right to teach my child these things.

Nobody's twisting anything here.

There's no such thing as "infringing on your right to believe how you wish, by proxy".

Draw a straight line, from A -> B, that provides a coherent and cogent explanation for how another human being learning something, that may or many not contradict your belief, infringes on your ability to believe it.

Nobody's infringing on your right to teach your kids anything you want... teach away, but you can't tell everyone else to not say something in front of your kids in a public setting because it may challenge your viewpoint. You have a right to try promulgate your beliefs, you don't have a right to do that "competition-free".

For instance, if you were a flat earther, or a person who believed that the moon landing was faked, etc... it's your right to believe those things, and it's your right to make the best case you can to your kids to get them to believe that too if that's something that's important to you. It's not your right to have everyone else zip their lip and avoid talking about the counterpoints because you're afraid that the opposing viewpoint may convince your kid that you're wrong and the other people are right.

I never asked you for that either. Quit twisting it. Letting parents have classes void of those things is the point.....Nopbody's kid is being imposed upon by any but the PARENT.

That's exactly what you're asking of other people. You said earlier in the thread that you didn't want things like sex ed being part of a school curriculums.

"Letting parents have classes without those things" isn't a right or freedom. You're phrasing it that way to try to make your case, but it doesn't hold water. The right to have someone else not say something, isn't a right.

That'd be like me saying "I have a right to live in a society without people expressing religious beliefs, because that may make my family members believe in something I don't want them to believe in"... No I don't. There's always going to be people who disagree with me on that topic.

Nobody, because i9t was no a complaint. Accepting that fact might clear up the confusion you are bringing into the conversation.

Nobody's bringing confusion into the conversation. It's actually a rather simple conversation. You don't want teachers to be able to teach certain things because they may challenge your viewpoint and you want to have a monopoly on deciding what information your kids are exposed to.

Not asking you to walk on egg shells. Just a choice to Parents.

It's a distinction without a difference.

"I don't approve of this thing, so you can't talk about it in classrooms" is making teachers walk on eggshells.

Your way or the highway.

Not at all, teachers can teach what they like. I'm confident in my abilities to present a better case for my viewpoints than theirs with regards to the subjects I have strong opinions about.

We live in a marketplace of ideas...if my ability to promulgate my idea is contingent upon other people not being able to talk about theirs, then my idea isn't all that strong.

For instance, I don't feel a need to shut down the speech of people who say "sticking your hand in a fire is good and won't hurt at all" in order to convey the idea that sticking your hand in a fire is bad. I'm confident enough that I can make a compelling case for my position and you can let the other side talk till the cows come home.

Oh, you decide.

Quite the opposite, I'm saying that we as singular individuals don't get to decide for everyone else.

You mean infringe on my religious freedom as a parent? Especially since it has no value to educate or prepare them for college?

There's no such thing as "religious freedom as a parent"...that's a nonsensical concept.

Religious freedom is an individual one. How much or how little someone else believes like you has no bearing on your ability to believe it.

That's like someone saying "It infringes on my voting rights as a parent" because their 18 year old kid voted differently than them.

We would, and actually "DO" understand it is a religious conviction. Therefore provide to them kosher food. That is what I and my kids have done when attending Jewish religious services. It is "unclean" to them. It defiles them. So in bringing food for a gathering after services I never brought unclean food.

Uh no, that's not the comparable scenario... we're talking about what rules a public institution is constrained by. (public, as in, we're all paying for it)

With what you've expressed and described, you're not talking about the equivalent of offering a Kosher meal voluntarily, you're talking about a dinner party that everyone chips in on, and then one attendee demands that there be no non-Kosher food of any kind present at the gathering.

I am asking for you to not infringe while my child is in school. It is not necessary. And you say tough nut to you. Yet I pay for it. Im am not doing anything to you, or anyone else.

Again, people can't "infringe upon your religious freedom" via your child. There's no such thing as "a right to have my child hold the same ideological viewpoints as me", that's treating a child like a piece of property or political accessory.

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

And this is maturity and well rounded?

Not sure what is wrong. You don’t want your children to learn things that are against what your deity wants.

Ah, so you think religion is what causes slavery among all societies huh? What cause abuse of people throughout history. Even among atheists heh?

No, people can do good or evil with or without belief in deities. But your deity has commanded genocide before so if I teach you’re kid that genocide is always wrong, they may think your deity is wrong which you teach it is impossible for your deity to be wrong. Slavery is the same way. To teach that owning property is always wrong is to suggest your deity is wrong for giving rules on how to maintain slaves. This actually was one of the first cracks in my faith when I tried to circle this square.

So well rounded of you. Or just someone who is angry because they can't have it their way. You can have it your way. There are parents out there that will be ok with it. As I said my children did both, and one only did public. But that is unimportant for your theatrics here. I am merely saying allow parents a choice to raise their kids, and just provide an education with my tax dollars. It really is not that big of a request.

You do have a choice. You can lock your kids away and they will never learn anything you don’t want. Public schools are tasked with everyone and they aren’t going to bend over backward to every belief system a parent can come up with.

In public kids are going to come into contact with content and ideas that you might not agree with. That’s what is going to happen and then you are going to have to explain it to them and answer any questions they might have. It’s called being a parent.

 

[ralliann]

Nobody's twisting anything here.

There's no such thing as "infringing on your right to believe how you wish, by proxy".

Twisting.........Thay would be you doing by proxy.

Not sure what is wrong. You don’t want your children to learn things that are against what your deity wants.



No, people can do good or evil with or without belief in deities. But your deity has commanded genocide before so if I teach you’re kid that genocide is always wrong, they may think your deity is wrong which you teach it is impossible for your deity to be wrong. Slavery is the same way. To teach that owning property is always wrong is to suggest your deity is wrong for giving rules on how to maintain slaves. This actually was one of the first cracks in my faith when I tried to circle this square.



You do have a choice. You can lock your kids away and they will never learn anything you don’t want. Public schools are tasked with everyone and they aren’t going to bend over backward to every belief system a parent can come up with.

In public kids are going to come into contact with content and ideas that you might not agree with. That’s what is going to happen and then you are going to have to explain it to them and answer any questions they might have. It’s called being a parent.

Yep, Parents are more than likely gonna have to go to court. You guys are bent on controlling social, moral development. Not academics.

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

Twisting.........Thay would be you doing by proxy.
























Yep, Parents are more than likely gonna have to go to court. You guys are bent on controlling social, moral development. Not academics.

If your belief system is half as good as you say it is, you should have no problem teaching it to your children regardless of what the rest of the world does. It’s one thing I respect about the Westboro Baptist Church. They don’t care if their children are in the world because they absolutely believe they have the truth and that the truth will always overcome what the world has. I hear Christians claim all the time they have truth. Westboro actually acts like they have it while most cower at the outside world. What are you afraid of if you actually have the truth?

 

[ralliann]

If your belief system is half as good as you say it is, you should have no problem teaching it to your children regardless of what the rest of the world does. It’s one thing I respect about the Westboro Baptist Church. They don’t care if their children are in the world because they absolutely believe they have the truth and that the truth will always overcome what the world has. I hear Christians claim all the time they have truth. Westboro actually acts like they have it while most cower at the outside world. What are you afraid of if you actually have the truth?

It is not your business or the public schools business. Schools are to educate our kids and prepare them for college. This is way beyond what everyone is focused on. Get out of the religion business.

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

It is not your business or the public schools business. Schools are to educate our kids and prepare them for college. This is way beyond what everyone is focused on. Get out of the religion business.

They are not in the religious business. Pretty explicitly so. They don’t care what religion a kid is. They teach everyone and don’t concern themselves with the religious beliefs of the students.

 

[ralliann]

They are not in the religious business. Pretty explicitly so. They don’t care what religion a kid is. They teach everyone and don’t concern themselves with the religious beliefs of the students.

LOL, then quit talking about it.

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

LOL, then quit talking about it.

I’m not the one demanding my religious beliefs dictate what can be taught in schools.

 

[ralliann]

I’m not the one demanding my religious beliefs dictate what can be taught in schools.

You are demanding over riding religion. Your involved with the business of religion, either way. Just leave it out of your sphere. Academics is your sphere, don't concern yourself with religion.

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

You are demanding over riding religion. Your involved with the business of religion, either way. Just leave it out of your sphere. Academics is your sphere, don't concern yourself with religion.

I don’t including not caring what your religion doesn’t want me to teach.

 

[A2SG]

Teaching social issues in context of history is fine (slavery in 1860s, causes of Civil War, etc). Teaching current indoctrination on issues in lieu of academics is catastrophic.

Could you provide an example of this catastrophe? With, of course, some sort of evidence that shows it actually happening.

-- A2SG, just so I know what you're referring to....

 

[ThatRobGuy]

You are demanding over riding religion. Your involved with the business of religion, either way. Just leave it out of your sphere. Academics is your sphere, don't concern yourself with religion.

Are the public schools teaching your kids religion?

Or are they merely teaching things that you see as contradicting your religion? There's a big difference.

If the public schools were teaching Islam, Hinduism, Taoism, etc... then you'd have a valid gripe. But that's not what's happening.


Can a Jewish parent demand that a high school Vo-Ag (vocational agriculture) or FFA class remove the content covering how to raise feedlot pigs because they see pork consumption as a sin and contradicting their personal religious viewpoint? Would that Jewish parent be reasonable in trying to assert that everyone else (the instructors who want to teach it, and the kids who want to learn it) are "nosing into their religious business"?

There are denominations that forbid listening to music with syncopated beat and dancing. Can those parents assert that the school's marching band has to be nixed for infringing on their religion?

Public schools (as state actors) can not promote religion -- however, there's nothing that suggests that they have to avoid talking about anything/everything that someone may see as being against their religion.


If a parent shows up and says "algebra is against my religion, you need to stop teaching that in school math classes and stay out of religion and leave that up to the parents!", that wouldn't be a reasonable request.

 

[Larniavc]

"N-Word, don't let the sun set on your back in this town"

The south of the USA seems a hellscape for non-whites.