Sunday worship

[Avonia]

I listed story after story in the Bible and was told they are not true.

I didn't say they were not true. I said they are not all historic/literal.

 

[Kira Light]

I didn't say they were not true. I said they are not all historic/literal.

These stories say specifically that God commanded people to kill, or God directly killed. Are these stories true?

 

[Avonia]

These stories say specifically that God commanded people to kill, or God directly killed. Are these stories true?

They are all true in the sense of reflecting people's perception of God. But stories in the Bible have varying degrees of historical accuracy.

Remember, the writers of the Bible thought the Earth was flat. That doesn't make their stories untrue. And it doesn't discredit the Bible. But it does mean the writers were in error.

As I said before, God is portrayed in very different ways in the Bible. Revelation is progressive.

Kira, we should probably take this conversation to the other thread on the Bible. I'm feeling increasingly uncomfortable replying to your posts, because we are so far away from the OP. BFA has been more than patient.

Fair enough?

 

[Kira Light]

Took your last quote to the other thread.

 

[solja247]

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Indeed, Jesus stated that the sabbath was made for man.
That indicates the nature of the sabbath as distinct apart from God's "My rest" that we have entered into.

Hebrews 4
1 ¶ Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.

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[FONT=&quot]The Greek word, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Καταπαυσιν, means to be at peace. Paul/Barnabus is talking about Psalms 95. As he states: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Psa 95:11[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest. Which is directly from David. The word [/FONT][FONT=&quot]menûchâh menûchâh[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in Hebrew meas to; repose or (adverbially) peacefully; figuratively consolation (specifically matrimony); hence (concretely) an abode: - comfortable, ease, quiet, rest (-ing place), still.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, `They shall not enter My rest,'" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works";
5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest."
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience...

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[FONT=&quot]This is talking about peace, settling down etc. Vs 4 talks about when God rested (Genesis 2:2) But that does not mean Paul is talking about the Sabbath. Paul is saying that God has finished all His works, yet the Israelites had not entered into rest. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Psa 95:8[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]You have to remember this is talking about the Israelites in the wilderness.[/FONT]
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Remember that this epistle was addressed to those who had been under the sabbath ordinance for 1500 years of their national life, and yet God's rest (that we who have believed have entered into, verse 3) remained to be attained by Israel. Hebrews 4:4 quotes Genesis 2:2 directly, showing that God's rest recorded in the creation account wasn't the sabbath. Mark 2:27 (your reference) affirms this by stating that the sabbath was made, and wasn't a offshoot of God's rest.

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[FONT=&quot]If this was talking about the Sabbath it would of used another word.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Heb 4:9[/FONT][FONT=&quot] There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]The word rest in vs 9 is not to settle down, peace, abode etc. It is [/FONT][FONT=&quot]sabbatismos. The only time mentioned in the Bible. In every other text outside the Bible refers to the Sabbath day. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Paul states, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]‘[/FONT][FONT=&quot]There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.’ It can only be said that Paul is reaffirming the Sabbath for God’s people.[/FONT]

 

[solja247]

A good reason for Jesus to have re-stated the 4th commandment is that He would have known 99% of Christians in the future would break it if He didn't.

Actually a lot of Christians were keeping the Sabbath, untill Chrisitianity became romanised. Jesus called Himself Lord of the Sabbath, isnt that enough?

If it actually is important to "rest" on the Sabbath, Jesus really really screwed up by not letting us know...

How so?

Did the devil just outplay him on this one? Maybe he really can't see into the future? Oh well.

If you read your Bible from cover to cover, you will see the Sabbath never changed or was done away with.

As the author of Hebrews wrote, "we who have believed do enter that rest", speaking of an eternal sabbatismos rest the sabbath merely represented. We have no more need of the temporal sabbaton.

exegesis. In every circumstance Sabbatismos has ALWAYS referred to the weekly Sabbath.

 

[Kira Light]

Actually a lot of Christians were keeping the Sabbath, untill Chrisitianity became romanised. Jesus called Himself Lord of the Sabbath, isnt that enough?

How so?
If you read your Bible from cover to cover, you will see the Sabbath never changed or was done away with.
exegesis. In every circumstance Sabbatismos has ALWAYS referred to the weekly Sabbath.

Sabbath never changed, but we aren't saved by keeping the old covenant.

I was saying that Jesus would have had to have known that in the future 99% of Christians would stop keeping the 4th commandment. If keeping the 4th commandment is important, Jesus probably should have made it more clear. You can argue that you believe it is crystal clear, but LOOK at this world. It is obvious God did not clear this up well enough. Think about your view point. Satan would have a hand in changing the day, putting 99% of today's Christians into the lake of fire. Do you really believe God would let Satan outplay him like this?

 

[solja247]

And when God had the Israelites stone the man that had been found picking up wood on the Sabbath was that to teach him about rest?

And when God killed the man who stole and lied. And the men God killed because the challenged Aaron Moses's leadership? or Aaron's sons when they didnt offer the offering right? or when Moses's sister got leporsy as she challenged Moses's leadership. When God told Moses that he would not go to the promise land because he got angry with a rock?

So what is exactly your point?

 

[solja247]

Sabbath never changed, but we aren't saved by keeping the old covenant.

We are saved by the blood of the lamb.

As Jesus said, 'IF you love me you will keep my commands.'

Jesus says He is Lord of the Sabbath.

My friend, I dont keep the Sabbath because I have to. I do it because I want to. So many Adventists are either too liberal or too legalistic about the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day to delight in and set apart.

Satan would have a hand in changing the day, putting 99% of today's Christians into the lake of fire. Do you really believe God would let Satan outplay him like this?

Who says sunday keepers are going to hell? This is a silly unbiblical belief. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ Our Lord.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

We are saved by the blood of the lamb.

As Jesus said, 'IF you love me you will keep my commands.'

Jesus says He is Lord of the Sabbath.

My friend, I dont keep the Sabbath because I have to. I do it because I want to. So many Adventists are either too liberal or too legalistic about the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day to delight in and set apart.

Who says sunday keepers are going to hell? This is a silly unbiblical belief. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ Our Lord.

Unless the SDA denomination has recently announced that it intends to officially change its position on the sabbath (in which case I would be thrilled to admit that I am wrong), the SDA denomination teaches that the sabbath will one day become the great dividing line between those who receive the seal of God and those who receive the mark of the beast.

Check out K4C's statement as set out in the original post. It would seem that he views those who go to church on Sunday as being "Sunday worshippers?" Do you view them similarly or differently?

I'm glad that there are people who find sabbath-keeping to be a blessing. It isn't my job to rob anyone of such a blessing.

Actually a lot of Christians were keeping the Sabbath, untill Chrisitianity became romanised. Jesus called Himself Lord of the Sabbath, isnt that enough?

Not for me. What we know is that Jesus worked on the day when the Israelites were told not to work.

Which Christians kept the sabbath?

If you read your Bible from cover to cover, you will see the Sabbath never changed or was done away with.

"Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you."

"Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.

These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:
"Be glad, O barren woman,
who bears no children;
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have no labor pains;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband." Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son." Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman."
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BFA

 

[solja247]

Unless the SDA denomination has recently changed announced that intends to officially change its position on the sabbath (in which case I would be thrilled to admit that I am wrong), the SDA denomination teaches that the sabbath will one day become the great dividing line between those who receive the seal of God and those who receive the mark of the beast.

A future SDA minister doesnt believe it. The SDA church is biased. They chop and choose what they like. Eg. They wont eat meat because it says in the health message not to eat meat, yet they will drink as much coffee as they want too??!?

Check out K4C's statement as set out in the original post. It would seem that he views those who go to church on Sunday as being "Sunday worshippers?" Do you view them similarly or differently?

They are my brothers and sisters in Christ. As I said before, the Bible never specifies a day which we have to come together and worship God.

I'm glad that there are people who find sabbath-keeping to be a blessing.

Thanks, the blessing can be yours as well. (Im not trying to make you a sabbath keeper, I am just saying )

 

[Kira Light]

We are saved by the blood of the lamb.

As Jesus said, 'IF you love me you will keep my commands.'

Jesus says He is Lord of the Sabbath.

My friend, I dont keep the Sabbath because I have to. I do it because I want to. So many Adventists are either too liberal or too legalistic about the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day to delight in and set apart.



Who says sunday keepers are going to hell? This is a silly unbiblical belief. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ Our Lord.

You are saying a few different things here, aren't you? If you love Jesus you keep his commandments... Then you call it silly that people who don't keep the 4th commandment would go to hell. Which is it?

These people that don't keep the commandments of the Old Covenant don't love Jesus, yet they will still go to heaven? Does not compute.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

A future SDA minister doesnt believe it. The SDA church is biased. They chop and choose what they like. Eg. They wont eat meat because it says in the health message not to eat meat, yet they will drink as much coffee as they want too??!?

Without question, I accept that there are individual SDAs who don't buy it. Sadly--there are many who do.

They are my brothers and sisters in Christ. As I said before, the Bible never specifies a day which we have to come together and worship God.

I appreciate your stance on this point.

BFA

 

[Kira Light]

Thanks, the blessing can be yours as well. (Im not trying to make you a sabbath keeper, I am just saying )

I love the new SDA spin that keeping Saturday "Holy" is somehow a blessing. My first 28 years of life were spent being SDA and I was nothing but annoyed that I couldn't watch TV or listen to non-Christian music on Sabbath. Sitting at boring potlucks did little to make me feel blessed either.

 

[StormyOne]

I love the new SDA spin that keeping Saturday "Holy" is somehow a blessing. My first 28 years of life were spent being SDA and I was nothing but annoyed that I couldn't watch TV or listen to non-Christian music on Sabbath. Sitting at boring potlucks did little to make me feel blessed either.

lol... on that we agree... though I liked the potluck food usually... and the after dinner conversation....

 

[bugkiller]

exegesis. In every circumstance Sabbatismos has ALWAYS referred to the weekly Sabbath.

I am very interested where you got this idea, Do you have a refenrence work I can check out.

bugkiller

 

[solja247]

I am very interested where you got this idea, Do you have a refenrence work I can check out.

bugkiller

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he unique word sabbatismos in Hebrews 4:9 is translated "rest" in the Authorized Version and others; "Sabbath rest" in the New International Version and other modern translations; "Sabbatism" (a transliteration) in the Darby Bible; "Sabbath observance" in the Scriptures 98 Edition; and "Sabbath keeping" in the Bible in Basic English. The word also appears in Plutarch, De Superstitione 3 (Moralia 166A); Justin, Dialogue with Trypho 23:3; Epiphanius, Adversus Haereses 30:2:2; Martyrium Petri et Pauli 1; and Apostolic Constitutions 2:36:2. Andrew Lincoln states, "In each of these places the term denotes the observance or celebration of the Sabbath .... Thus the writer to the Hebrews is saying that since the time of Joshua an observance of the Sabbath rest has been outstanding."

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[solja247]

I love the new SDA spin that keeping Saturday "Holy" is somehow a blessing. My first 28 years of life were spent being SDA and I was nothing but annoyed that I couldn't watch TV or listen to non-Christian music on Sabbath. Sitting at boring potlucks did little to make me feel blessed either.

I wouldnt call it a 'spin' How can Sabbath be any different if you dont make it holy? I will admit at times the Sabbath can be a bit of drag. At the moment Sabbath does not close till 8pm it can get a bit dull, at times.

Pherhaps you should of gone to the beach or something, if you found pot lucks were rather boring?

 

[Kira Light]

I wouldnt call it a 'spin' How can Sabbath be any different if you dont make it holy? I will admit at times the Sabbath can be a bit of drag. At the moment Sabbath does not close till 8pm it can get a bit dull, at times.

Pherhaps you should of gone to the beach or something, if you found pot lucks were rather boring?

Unlike today's SDA's, my family actually believed Ellen White was a prophet of God. This is not to say they didn't cheat a bit. My entire family's guilty pleasure is caffeine. We went on river trips where often we would not ski or take the boat out on Sabbath.

Ellen White said: "Pleasure seeking, ball playing, swimming, was not a necessity, but a sinful neglect of the sacred day sanctified by Jehovah."

Also, going out to eat and having someone "serve" you on the Sabbath (after church for example) was always frowned upon. My family largely ignored this because we loved to go to the Chinese restaurant after a long boring church service.

The Bible's Sabbath laws made it a sin punishable by death to pick up firewood on the Sabbath. It is somewhat difficult to justify carrying around beach stuff and going surfing or something and pretending it is Holy.

It is also a pretty big problem if you don't have enough gas in your car, because buying stuff on Saturday is a big no no.

But those were the old days. Seems things have been lightening up for the last 10 years or so. It is funny to see SDA's today claiming Sabbath is a wonderful blessing to them as they go play at the beach and eat out and do whatever they feel like. What isn't funny is that they still think people who don't go to church on Saturday carry the mark of the beast in these end times (the vast majority do unless they are totally zoned out).

 

[VictorC]

solja, have you come across any evidence suggesting the Gentiles ever received a sabbath commandment?

Well we have to look at the context. Why would Jesus command the Sabbath to be kept? It would be like commanding, 'Go on a green light.' Everyone does it, everyone knows about it so for the sake of cultral context Jesus doesnt re-state the 3rd and 4th commandment.

What context are you speaking of? I wrote a paragraph without referring to a context. And, when you speak of Jesus giving the sabbath commandment, are you speaking of Him pre-incarnate when He spoke from the burning bush to Moses?

I have requested when and where God commanded us (Christians and/or Gentiles) to keep the sabbath, and you still haven't addressed this.

The Babylonians, Assyrians and other cultures were keeping the Sabbath. It was known as a 'bad day to work on'.

So the testimony Moses gave via rhetorical question concerning the law no other nation had in Deuteronomy 4:8 isn't reliable in your mind?

Fair enough. Let me ask you a question. What changed when Jesus died on the cross?

Are you suggesting that Jesus Christ delegated the law to someone other than Moses to mediate?

You have not provided any citation that shows that we have been commanded to abide by any component of the first covenant such as the sabbath. I wrote how we have entered into God's rest, and have no need for the temporal shadow He delivered us from.