Sunday worship

[VictorC]

I seem to recall asking you to provide a reference where and when God commanded us (new covenant Christians and Gentiles) to abide by the sabbath that was merely a shadow of God's "My rest" He enjoyed since the seventh day of creation, that we have entered into by faith. That rest remained to be attained by the children of Israel, who had not acheived God's "My rest" throughout their entire time abiding by the covenant that contained the sabbath.

You never did deliver on that request. God hasn't commanded us to abide by the sabbath, especially in light of a permanent rest He gave us that is inherently seven times superior to it.

There are infact to commandments which are not mentioned in the NT. The 3rd and 4th commandment. Does that mean we should no longer obey these two commands? No.

Welcome to the forum. I hope to see more than just one post from you.

I would like to point out that what you wrote didn't address the point I had raised. No one here has ever provided documentation when the sabbath was commanded to any Gentile or anyone during the Christian dispensation, when the sabbath completed its task of leading us to God's rest. In order to obey a commandment given in the first covenant (the ten commandments), doesn't that imply that we need to leave the permanent rest we have in God's adoption? And, are we to obey a commandment we were never given? To do so would be to add to what God has instructed us, and I am concerned such an approach is presumptuous, usurping authority that God hasn't delegated to anyone else.

I would like to mention what Jesus said, when He was challenged by the legalistic pharisees. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a weekly holiday. It is a day where people do not have to worry about worldly stresses. They can sleep in, have a picnic with family and friends. Tell their children about God etc. The Sabbath is a day or rest God created. I find it rather ironic most of my friends wish they had a day where they did nothing!

Indeed, Jesus stated that the sabbath was made for man.
That indicates the nature of the sabbath as distinct apart from God's "My rest" that we have entered into.

Hebrews 4
1 ¶ Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, `They shall not enter My rest,'" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works";
5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest."
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience...

Remember that this epistle was addressed to those who had been under the sabbath ordinance for 1500 years of their national life, and yet God's rest (that we who have believed have entered into, verse 3) remained to be attained by Israel. Hebrews 4:4 quotes Genesis 2:2 directly, showing that God's rest recorded in the creation account wasn't the sabbath. Mark 2:27 (your reference) affirms this by stating that the sabbath was made, and wasn't a offshoot of God's rest.

And no, the sabbath isn't a holiday. It was a component of the law we were delivered from, and the two lambs sacrificed for the sabbath didn't think it a holiday.

Case in point the Sabbath still matters and is also for ones health. End of story.

This is conjecture, and not compliant with the Gospel assuring us that by our faith we have entered into a permanent rest that the sabbath was a mere shadow of.

 

[solja247]

welcome to the forum... you stated "end of story," I must ask for whom? Are you saying that its settled in your mind and you are fine with it, or are you saying that your comments have settled this issue and there are to be no more questions?

I said 'end of story' to conclude what I had said above.

While you said most of your friends wish they had a day where they did nothing, you realize that there are some people who only work 5 days a week and thereby have 2 days to just do nothing. Some of "my friends" only work 4 days a week, and there are even a few who only have to work 3 days per week giving them 4 days to just do nothing..... do you see the point I'm making?

More isnt always better. I think having one day off in seven is great, but anymore would be too much. You have to remember the Sabbath is not only a day or rest, but is a holy day. I believe it should be different from any other day. I personally dont go to the movies, shopping, watch any secular TV etc.

The reality is that no person consistently obeys the ten commandments (though there are many who claim to keep commandments).

True. But that doesnt mean we should not try to keep the commandments?

If we were to really explore the idea that "man was not made for the sabbath," how would we respond to the teachings of some that the sabbath is the great dividing line between those who receive the seal of God and those who receive the mark of the beast?

Im rather skeptical of how the end time events are going to turn out. Why would God make the 'seal of God' on a commandment which isnt understood by many, including adventists?

I am very pleased that you have found such joy in the practice of setting aside one day out of seven for rest. What concerns me is not your sabbath keeping, but rather the possibility that you may be implying that all people must do as you do.

I wish others took a day off. When I was in Asia everyone was working 24/7. Anyways I believe people who adhere to the Bible should keep the Sabbath.

Q: Now, getting back to the topic of this thread, how do you view those who attend church services on Sunday? What does "Sunday worship" mean?

I have been to Sunday worship a couple of times, its just the same as Saturday worship. God never specified what day we should worship Him, but what day to keep holy and rest on.

 

[solja247]

Welcome to the forum. I hope to see more than just one post from you.

I would like to point out that what you wrote didn't address the point I had raised. No one here has ever provided documentation when the sabbath was commanded to any Gentile or anyone during the Christian dispensation, when the sabbath completed its task of leading us to God's rest. In order to obey a commandment given in the first covenant (the ten commandments), doesn't that imply that we need to leave the permanent rest we have in God's adoption? And, are we to obey a commandment we were never given?

Well we have to look at the context. Why would Jesus command the Sabbath to be kept? It would be like commanding, 'Go on a green light.' Everyone does it, everyone knows about it so for the sake of cultral context Jesus doesnt re-state the 3rd and 4th commandment. The Babylonians, Assyrians and other cultures were keeping the Sabbath. It was known as a 'bad day to work on'.

To do so would be to add to what God has instructed us, and I am concerned such an approach is presumptuous, usurping authority that God hasn't delegated to anyone else.

Fair enough. Let me ask you a question. What changed when Jesus died on the cross?

 

[Kira Light]

Well we have to look at the context. Why would Jesus command the Sabbath to be kept? It would be like commanding, 'Go on a green light.' Everyone does it, everyone knows about it so for the sake of cultral context Jesus doesnt re-state the 3rd and 4th commandment. The Babylonians, Assyrians and other cultures were keeping the Sabbath. It was known as a 'bad day to work on'.



Fair enough. Let me ask you a question. What changed when Jesus died on the cross?

A good reason for Jesus to have re-stated the 4th commandment is that He would have known 99% of Christians in the future would break it if He didn't. If it actually is important to "rest" on the Sabbath, Jesus really really screwed up by not letting us know...

Did the devil just outplay him on this one? Maybe he really can't see into the future? Oh well.

 

[sentipente]

I understand it as shorthand of the same kind as the "morning worship" and "evening worship" that my grandparents instituted in their home when they converted to Adventism in the 1930s.

They were not worshipping the rising or setting sun.
But they were (rather rigidly for several decades) worshipping.

Makes you wonder about Divine Worship that occurs at the "11 o'clock hour."

 

[VictorC]

Well we have to look at the context. Why would Jesus command the Sabbath to be kept? It would be like commanding, 'Go on a green light.' Everyone does it, everyone knows about it so for the sake of cultral context Jesus doesnt re-state the 3rd and 4th commandment.

What context are you speaking of? I wrote a paragraph without referring to a context. And, when you speak of Jesus giving the sabbath commandment, are you speaking of Him pre-incarnate when He spoke from the burning bush to Moses?

I have requested when and where God commanded us (Christians and/or Gentiles) to keep the sabbath, and you still haven't addressed this.

The Babylonians, Assyrians and other cultures were keeping the Sabbath. It was known as a 'bad day to work on'.

So the testimony Moses gave via rhetorical question concerning the law no other nation had in Deuteronomy 4:8 isn't reliable in your mind?

Fair enough. Let me ask you a question. What changed when Jesus died on the cross?

Are you suggesting that Jesus Christ delegated the law to someone other than Moses to mediate?

You have not provided any citation that shows that we have been commanded to abide by any component of the first covenant such as the sabbath. I wrote how we have entered into God's rest, and have no need for the temporal shadow He delivered us from.

 

[AzA]

Q: Now, getting back to the topic of this thread, how do you view those who attend church services on Sunday?BFA

No differently from anyone else. I hope they benefit from the exercise.

Makes you wonder about Divine Worship that occurs at the "11 o'clock hour."

Indeed. At my first church it was called Divine Service, which, depending on how one reads it, can imply something completely different...

No wonder it was highly passive for everyone not divine.

 

[k4c]

welcome to the forum... you stated "end of story," I must ask for whom? Are you saying that its settled in your mind and you are fine with it, or are you saying that your comments have settled this issue and there are to be no more questions?

While you said most of your friends wish they had a day where they did nothing, you realize that there are some people who only work 5 days a week and thereby have 2 days to just do nothing. Some of "my friends" only work 4 days a week, and there are even a few who only have to work 3 days per week giving them 4 days to just do nothing..... do you see the point I'm making?

I'm replying to your reply to benefit others because you have made it clear that you have no desire to remember the Sabbath.

We don't cease from labor on the Sabbath for health reasons, though there are health benefits nor does ceasing from labor on the Sabbath make the Sabbath holy, the Sabbath is holy so we cease labor as a means to acknowledge its holiness.

Jesus taught many times on how to keep the Sabbath holy in light of issues pertaining to life and each time He taught He was referring to a literal day.

Not one time in Jesus' teachings did He do away with the Sabbath nor did He change the day. As a matter of fact, His followers continued to keep the Sabbath after Jesus' death, ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT, which clearly testifies that Jesus made no changes to the fourth commandment.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

I will repeat the statement I made in the past.

There is not one person on this forum, including yourself, that truly believes it's okay to break any one of the Ten Commamdments.

 

[Avonia]

Jesus taught many times on how to keep the Sabbath holy in light of issues pertaining to life and each time He taught He was referring to a literal day.

It's important to understand that what Jesus taught was to some extent retrained by the time/culture/context. If the gap would have been too large, nobody could have made the leap.

So his messages were delivered via the language and assumptions of the time - to some extent.

 

[VictorC]

I'm replying to your reply to benefit others because you have made it clear that you have no desire to remember the Sabbath.

You could provide a benefit if you were able to ascertain a place and time when we were commanded to remember the sabbath. The sabbath doesn't exist outside the law ordained in the first covenant, and you know it.

We don't cease from labor on the Sabbath for health reasons, though there are health benefits nor does ceasing from labor on the Sabbath make the Sabbath holy, the Sabbath is holy so we cease labor as a means to acknowledge its holiness.

But as most of us know, without compliance to the law you haven't kept the sabbath day holy. Circumcision was requisite to enter into Israel's covenant relationship, as was the Levitical priesthood that made the burnt offerings necessary to keep the sabbath holy according to the law.

Jesus taught many times on how to keep the Sabbath holy in light of issues pertaining to life and each time He taught He was referring to a literal day.

Where did Jesus ever teach anyone against compliance to the law during the law's tenure?
Never.
When did He or His disciples teach returning to the law's mandates for circumcision and burnt offerings, as well as the rest of the 613 mitzvot contained in the book of the law after His resurrection?
Never.

Not one time in Jesus' teachings did He do away with the Sabbath nor did He change the day. As a matter of fact, His followers continued to keep the Sabbath after Jesus' death, ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT, which clearly testifies that Jesus made no changes to the fourth commandment.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Mary and the women with her didn't understand redemption from the law at the time Luke records this event. In fact, Luke included the comment concerning the commandment for the sabbath, for the likely reason that his epistle's recipient (Theophilus) wouldn't understand why the women rested on the sabbath, since he as a Gentile didn't comprehend a commandment he never received. The disciples of Jesus didn't understand their redemption from the law themselves, as the incident you mentioned precedes this one recorded in Luke 24:

36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” 42 So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. 43 And He took it and ate in their presence.
44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

Prior to this, no one understood the aim of the Gospel. Since this event, no one in the Christian community complied with the sabbath nor did they make an effort to. As the author of Hebrews wrote, "we who have believed do enter that rest", speaking of an eternal sabbatismos rest the sabbath merely represented. We have no more need of the temporal sabbaton.

I will repeat the statement I made in the past.

There is not one person on this forum, including yourself, that truly believes it's okay to break any one of the Ten Commamdments.

So what is the reason you don't comply with the sabbath ordained in the covenant law Israel was bound to? And, why do you harp on the law God redeemed us from, when you already know that God has already concluded ALL of its recipients disobedient in Romans 11:32?

And,

Why can't you locate a commandment to remember the sabbath that was applied to Gentiles and those redeemed from the law?

 

[StormyOne]

I'm replying to your reply to benefit others because you have made it clear that you have no desire to remember the Sabbath.

We don't cease from labor on the Sabbath for health reasons, though there are health benefits nor does ceasing from labor on the Sabbath make the Sabbath holy, the Sabbath is holy so we cease labor as a means to acknowledge its holiness.

Jesus taught many times on how to keep the Sabbath holy in light of issues pertaining to life and each time He taught He was referring to a literal day.

Not one time in Jesus' teachings did He do away with the Sabbath nor did He change the day. As a matter of fact, His followers continued to keep the Sabbath after Jesus' death, ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT, which clearly testifies that Jesus made no changes to the fourth commandment.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

I will repeat the statement I made in the past.

There is not one person on this forum, including yourself, that truly believes it's okay to break any one of the Ten Commamdments.

Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy..... what does that mean? who knows how to keep something holy? no one that I know of has a clue... likewise, the law was not given to keep but to show the need of a savior..... however that usually gets lost...

 

[Avonia]

It seems like Sabbath was important for the Israelites because they had been slaves for so long. And needed to learn something about rest.

Such a simple explanation may be heresy coming from a SDA - however.

 

[Kira Light]

Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy..... what does that mean? who knows how to keep something holy? no one that I know of has a clue... likewise, the law was not given to keep but to show the need of a savior..... however that usually gets lost...

How do you know these parts of the Bible you mention here are trustworthy?

 

[Kira Light]

It seems like Sabbath was important for the Israelites because they had been slaves for so long. And needed to learn something about rest.

Such a simple explanation may be heresy coming from a SDA - however.

And when God had the Israelites stone the man that had been found picking up wood on the Sabbath was that to teach him about rest?

 

[StormyOne]

How do you know these parts of the Bible you mention here are trustworthy?

the passage quoted was done so to make a point..... since that's where the person who responded to me wanted to make his point....

 

[Avonia]

And when God had the Israelites stone the man that had been found picking up wood on the Sabbath was that to teach him about rest?

If you believe God did that, getting to heaven should be the last thing you want to do.

 

[Kira Light]

If you believe God did that, getting to heaven should be the last thing you want to do.

I thought you were a Bible believer Avonia. Didn't we talk about that somewhere? Do you just pick and choose what parts you like out of it?

 

[Avonia]

I thought you were a Bible believer Avonia. Didn't we talk about that somewhere? Do you just pick and choose what parts you like out of it?

I try to understand it for what it is. All of it. I honor it. In this way the Bible is impeccable.

 

[Kira Light]

I try to understand it for what it is. All of it. I honor it. In this way the Bible is impeccable.

So is this portion of Numbers impeccable? Why don't you believe it?

Num 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
Num 15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
Num 15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
Num 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
Num 15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

 

[Avonia]

So is this portion of Numbers impeccable? Why don't you believe it?

I do believe it. But everything I know about God suggests that God had little to do with it. People's perception of God had a lot to do with it.

Remember, in parts of the Old Testament, Satan is an agent of God - working on God's behalf. Do you believe that?