Sunday worship

[Kira Light]

I do believe it. But everything I know about God suggests that God had little to do with it. People's perception of God had a lot to do with it.

Remember, in parts of the Old Testament, Satan is an agent of God - working on God's behalf. Do you believe that?

So you don't think God really talked to Moses? It is pretty clear the people brought the man to Moses and God told him to have the man stoned. I don't see much room for interpretation there...

I don't remember specifically what you are talking about, but I know I have heard similar things before. I certainly am not gonna throw out those portions of the Bible. I believe if they are properly understood there is no problem with them.

 

[Avonia]

So you don't think God really talked to Moses? It is pretty clear the people brought the man to Moses and God told him to have the man stoned. I don't see much room for interpretation there...

I do not believe God instructed one of His children to murder another. Because I sense that God is moral.

If you came to me and said God instructed you to murder another human being, I would not believe that message came from God either.

 

[Kira Light]

I do not believe God instructed one of His children to murder another. Because I sense that God is moral.

If you came to me and said God instructed you to murder another human being, I would not believe that message came from God either.

So you don't believe God killed the first born sons in Egypt either I suppose?

Sodom and Gomorrah a lie, too?

What about when God commanded the Israelites to kill entire cities with thousands?

Deu 3:6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.

Sorry to press the issue so much, but I wonder how you deal with these things. Are these lies?

 

[StormyOne]

So you don't believe God killed the first born sons in Egypt either I suppose?

Sodom and Gomorrah a lie, too?

What about when God commanded the Israelites to kill entire cities with thousands?



Sorry to press the issue so much, but I wonder how you deal with these things. Are these lies?

Just because someone said God told them to do something, doesn't mean he did.... so before you ask, NO I do not believe that God told the COI to commit genocide.... but that's just me....

 

[Kira Light]

Just because someone said God told them to do something, doesn't mean he did.... so before you ask, NO I do not believe that God told the COI to commit genocide.... but that's just me....

Wasn't going to ask because I already know you don't believe The Bible.

I agree 100% that "Just because someone said God told them to do something, doesn't mean he did..." At least we can agree on that..

 

[Avonia]

So you don't believe God killed the first born sons in Egypt either I suppose?

I do not. As I said, I do not experience God as immoral.

I do believe Moses had a relationship with God that had unusual deep - and unusual connection. To say the least. But, as Paul suggests, we see through a glass darkly. So interpretations always have some degree of error, and subsequent actions have varying degrees of resonance with Divine Ideal.

I also don't consider the Bible an accurate historical record. So I don't know to what degree these stories reflect what actually happened. I image some are more accurate than others. The flood is a good example. To me it's clear on both moral and scientific grounds that this is not about a literal event. But it is an immensely important teaching story. I have much reverence for that.

BFA, if this conversation is drifting too far, we may want to start another thread. I don't want to derail your OP!

Kira, you should follow your conscience on this matter. But understand that others' should as well.

 

[Kira Light]

I do not. As I said, I do not experience God as immoral.

I do believe Moses had a relationship with God that had unusual deep - and unusual connection. To say the least. But, as Paul suggests, we see through a glass darkly. So interpretations always have some degree of error, and subsequent actions have varying degrees of resonance with Divine Ideal.

I also don't consider the Bible an accurate historical record. So I don't know to what degree these stories reflect what actually happened. I image some are more accurate than others. The flood is a good example. To me it's clear on both moral and scientific grounds that this is not about a literal event. But it is an immensely important teaching story. I have much reverence for that.

BFA, if this conversation is drifting too far, we may want to start another thread. I don't want to derail your OP!

Kira, you should follow your conscience on this matter. But understand that others' should as well.

It's cool, I was just wondering where you were coming from. Thanks for the answers and I will stop derailing this thread.

 

[Avonia]

Wasn't going to ask because I already know you don't believe The Bible.

Kira you skipped a rather interesting question - which is fine if you don't wish to answer.

Do you believe that a "satan" worked as God's agent - as is described in the story of Job?

 

[Avonia]

Thanks for the answers and I will stop derailing this thread.

You are asking good questions.

OK - back to the OP.

 

[Kira Light]

Kira you skipped a rather interesting question - which is fine if you don't wish to answer.

Do you believe that a "satan" worked as God's agent - as is described in the story of Job?

I don't pick and choose what to believe out of The Bible. It is kind of an all or none thing to me. That being said, I don't really agree with that interpretation of Job. It is true that Satan can do nothing without God first allowing it, but I do not see that as God using Satan do His bidding.

This is not something I am incredibly knowledgeable about. If you guys wanna start a "Why the Bible is not true" thread with all of your evidence, that might help consolidate all this.

 

[AzA]

Perhaps someone will volunteer him/herself, but I can't think of any regular poster who believes "the Bible is not true." I'm sure we could all raise testimony as to "Why the Bible is not all fact," but that's a little more obvious and a little less interesting.

Earlier, though, Avonia suggested that the Bible is a good testament to the writers' beliefs and experiences and the common assumptions of their respective cultures. Their assumptions changed over time, and it's kind of nice that we have the cacophony of assumptions preserved. Sometimes I wish they'd compiled all of the writings in chronological order rather than in narrative order -- but that wasn't the kind of project they were doing.

In lieu of that, I've found it both helpful and fun to read some of the various Jewish commentaries on the earlier scriptures. These commentaries include the dialogues and stories populated by people like Hillel and Shammai. Jesus entered into that context of study and commentary not too long after Hillel died. And Gamaliel, Paul's mentor, was trained in Hillel's tradition (he was also Hillel's grandson).

So it is helpful to understand how these men understood their own scriptural legacy, and the "characters" in the "Great Controversy." In short, they don't see the characters operating in the same way that Adventists do. The Jewish ha-satan is indeed an adversarial role played by someone under God's authority. But the role can also be conflated with the "impulse to evil." Amongst other things.

 

[StormyOne]

Perhaps someone will volunteer him/herself, but I can't think of any regular poster who believes "the Bible is not true." I'm sure we could all raise testimony as to "Why the Bible is not all fact," but that's a little more obvious and a little less interesting.

Earlier, though, Avonia suggested that the Bible is a good testament to the writers' beliefs and experiences and the common assumptions of their respective cultures. Their assumptions changed over time, and it's kind of nice that we have the cacophony of assumptions preserved. Sometimes I wish they'd compiled all of the writings in chronological order rather than in narrative order -- but that wasn't the kind of project they were doing.

In lieu of that, I've found it both helpful and fun to read some of the various Jewish commentaries on the earlier scriptures. These commentaries include the dialogues and stories populated by people like Hillel and Shammai. Jesus entered into that context of study and commentary not too long after Hillel died. And Gamaliel, Paul's mentor, was trained in Hillel's tradition (he was also Hillel's grandson).

So it is helpful to understand how these men understood their own scriptural legacy, and the "characters" in the "Great Controversy." In short, they don't see the characters operating in the same way that Adventists do. The Jewish ha-satan is indeed an adversarial role played by someone under God's authority. But the role can also be conflated with the "impulse to evil." Amongst other things.

well said... those who compiled the sources arranged them to tell a story.... there is context and unfortunately the average christian is not familiar with the jewish stories the existed and made their way into what we call the bible..... with all stories told about a people or a family there are myths, all groups have them.... and they take on legendary status after time....

Example: Look at the myth that is finally dying, (I think), Columbus "discovered" America... how does one discover a land where people are already living?

Does the bible contain myth? I am quite sure it does.... but that's a different discussion.....

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I'm replying to your reply to benefit others because you have made it clear that you have no desire to remember the Sabbath.

We don't cease from labor on the Sabbath for health reasons, though there are health benefits nor does ceasing from labor on the Sabbath make the Sabbath holy, the Sabbath is holy so we cease labor as a means to acknowledge its holiness.

Jesus taught many times on how to keep the Sabbath holy in light of issues pertaining to life and each time He taught He was referring to a literal day.

Not one time in Jesus' teachings did He do away with the Sabbath nor did He change the day. As a matter of fact, His followers continued to keep the Sabbath after Jesus' death, ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT, which clearly testifies that Jesus made no changes to the fourth commandment.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

I will repeat the statement I made in the past.

There is not one person on this forum, including yourself, that truly believes it's okay to break any one of the Ten Commamdments.

Will you address the central question of this thread? What is Sunday worship?

BFA

 

[sentipente]

Perhaps someone will volunteer him/herself, but I can't think of any regular poster who believes "the Bible is not true."

Because the statement is entirely incomplete. Is a work of fiction true? It depends on what one means by "true." Everything is true because if it were not true it would not exist.

 

[sentipente]

Wasn't going to ask because I already know you don't believe The Bible.

What do you mean that he does not believe the Bible? Does that claim really make sense to you or did you just throw it out for effect?

 

[sentipente]

I thought you were a Bible believer Avonia. Didn't we talk about that somewhere? Do you just pick and choose what parts you like out of it?

What does the term Bible believer mean to you, Kira?

 

[StormyOne]

What do you mean that he does not believe the Bible? Does that claim really make sense to you or did you just throw it out for effect?

Sometimes I think people like to publicly proclaim where they are on an issue... they do that by affirming "yes that is my position, I believe that." Or by identifying those who are not like them i.e. "I already know you don't believe..." So perhaps the claim was made to satisfy onlookers where he stood on the issue as well as throwing it out for effect...

What I have learned in my almost 50 yrs of life is, I can believe what I want, I don't care if you don't share my belief, and I will not be shamed, shunned, threatened into believing something else... If I choose to change my mind, and I might, I'll make that decision on my terms...

 

[Kira Light]

What does the term Bible believer mean to you, Kira?

A person who believes what is in the Bible.

 

[Kira Light]

What do you mean that he does not believe the Bible? Does that claim really make sense to you or did you just throw it out for effect?

Is this a real question, or is this just here for effect? I asked him about certain verses and he accused me of not knowing how the Bible was really put together. He has insisted over and over it is NOT the word of God. You can't say the Bible is corrupt and untrustworthy and still claim to believe it.

 

[Kira Light]

Because the statement is entirely incomplete. Is a work of fiction true? It depends on what one means by "true." Everything is true because if it were not true it would not exist.

Everything is true or it would not exist? My goodness. I listed story after story in the Bible and was told they are not true. If these stories are fictional, or blatant lies, then how can you say the Bible is true?