Sunday law?

[PaleHorse]

I'm reading that Sozeman states that EVERYONE who gathered on Saturday ALSO gathered on Sunday, while the Western portion of the Church ( Rome and Alexandria's ) Tradition was to meet ONLY on Sunday.

But you neglect the first quote (by Socrates) that clearly says the churches at Rome and Alexandria CEASED their Sabbath observance. One has to be doing something in order to cease from doing it any further.

That's what, "assemble together on the Sabbath AS WELL AS on the the first day of the week" means. Describe exactly what that means to you?

I agree that 'as well as' indicates both days - that was not my contention. The point was that the first quote explains the reason why the Sabbath was NOT being observed by those in Rome or Alexandria - they had ceased observance of the Sabbath in favor of the 'ancient tradition' - which would have been sun worship:

"Sun worship was the principal form of worship in the Roman Empire and of the Romans."
- The Great Empires of Prophecy, A.T. Jones; pg. 424

"The learned Christian advocate, M. Turretin, says (of the fourth century): “It was not so much the Pagans who were converted to Christianity, but Christianity was converted to Paganism.” Hadrian could not see the difference between Christians and the worshippers of the ancient Egyptian god Serapis (a sun- god). King says that the worship of Serapis was incorporated with Christianity in the East, and that all the early portraits of Christ were clearly taken from the head of Serapis; the early Christians were often called sun-worshippers."
- Modern Rationalism by Joseph McCabe

"It was openly asserted, that the worship of the sun, was to supercede all other worship."
- History of Christianity, Milman; Book ii, chpr. viii, para. 22

That sort of sums up what Socrates thought about things.

It is irrelevant what Socrates thought about things - what is important is what he was able to observe first-hand.


On a side note: The shorter your posts, the more likely folks are to read it. Merely making a suggestion. I understand that sometimes expressing full thoughts requires verbose postings; but keeping them to a minimum whenever possible is advantageous to your cause.

 

[Pythons]

But you neglect the first quote (by Socrates) that clearly says the churches at Rome and Alexandria CEASED their Sabbath observance. One has to be doing something in order to cease from doing it any further.

I can agree that the Churches at Rome and Alexandria "ceased" celebrating on Sabbath. The Christians since the Apostles were celebrating on Sunday and this practice has not "ceased".

I agree that 'as well as' indicates both days - that was not my contention. The point was that the first quote explains the reason why the Sabbath was NOT being observed by those in Rome or Alexandria - they had ceased observance of the Sabbath in favor of the 'ancient tradition' - which would have been sun worship:

Oh come on now. If you want to get into a discussion about how Saturn's day ( Saturday ) was a bigger deal to pagans then Sunday I'm certainly game for that.

"Sun worship was the principal form of worship in the Roman Empire and of the Romans."
- The Great Empires of Prophecy, A.T. Jones; pg. 424

Let me guess, are you quoting Alonzo Trevier (1850 - 1923)? The guy who said Jesus was born "twice". I wouldn't want to get to "verbose" so here is the link to General Conference Archives for the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, go to page 3 and read what Alonzo wrote. http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH1899-31/index.djvu

"The learned Christian advocate, M. Turretin, says (of the fourth century): “It was not so much the Pagans who were converted to Christianity, but Christianity was converted to Paganism.” Hadrian could not see the difference between Christians and the worshippers of the ancient Egyptian god Serapis (a sun- god). King says that the worship of Serapis was incorporated with Christianity in the East, and that all the early portraits of Christ were clearly taken from the head of Serapis; the early Christians were often called sun-worshippers."
- Modern Rationalism by Joseph McCabe

Nice, quoting the worlds foremost Atheist who did everything he could to weaken Christianity after leaving the Catholic Priesthood. You need to do better then that. That would be like me quoting Wayne Bent as if he is an authority on SDAism.

"It was openly asserted, that the worship of the sun, was to supercede all other worship."
- History of Christianity, Milman; Book ii, chpr. viii, para. 22

"Openly asserted by the pagans" who Milman states were "attacked" by both the east and west Church on page 74. Did you seriously read this book or take it on faith that the quote you produced really taught what whoever provided it said it taught. The full title of the book is,

"History of Christianity From the Birth of Christ to the Abolition of Paganism in the Roman Empire".

It is irrelevant what Socrates thought about things - what is important is what he was able to observe first-hand.

What people are able to observe first hand IS what directs what they think about things.

On a side note: The shorter your posts, the more likely folks are to read it. Merely making a suggestion. I understand that sometimes expressing full thoughts requires verbose postings; but keeping them to a minimum whenever possible is advantageous to your cause.

Provided you continue to dialog as you did in this post that will not be a problem on my end.

I'm getting to like you Palehorse. Why have we not reasoned together more often?

 

[honorthesabbath]

It's interesting to see all the arguments each are using to shore up their beliefs. But the simple matter is, as RND has stated many times, the FACT that there was and is the commandment to 'keep holy the 7th day (not the first day) of the week--PERIOD! With this FACT, there can be no intelligent debate--it's in your face, plain.

And along with this FACT lies the eternal question, "Whom will you serve"? "Whom will you OBEY"? God's law or man's tradition? The choice has eternal consequences.

 

[PaleHorse]

I can agree that the Churches at Rome and Alexandria "ceased" celebrating on Sabbath. The Christians since the Apostles were celebrating on Sunday and this practice has not "ceased".

Oh c'mon. Do you realize you just contradicted yourself? Did they cease or didn't they? You claim that the Apostles (who lived in the 1st century) celebrated Sunday; yet we are reading a 5th century account that says the Christians in two locations ceased observing Sabbath - which indicates the majority of locations WERE still observing Sabbath into the 5th century. Which is it, Pythons? Are you now contending that the Christians were observing Sunday in the 1st century, then switched to the Sabbath at some point, and then switched back to Sunday worship by the 5th century? For your statement to be accurate, the Christians at Rome & Alexandria would have had to do such a double-switch.

Let me guess, are you quoting Alonzo Trevier (1850 - 1923)? The guy who said Jesus was born "twice". I wouldn't want to get to "verbose" so here is the link to General Conference Archives for the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, go to page 3 and read what Alonzo wrote. http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH1899-31/index.djvu

I'm having a hard time installing the plug-in so that I can review the document you've linked to... allow me some time to respond to this portion of your post.

Nice, quoting the worlds foremost Atheist who did everything he could to weaken Christianity after leaving the Catholic Priesthood. You need to do better then that. That would be like me quoting Wayne Bent as if he is an authority on SDAism.

Would you prefer I quote numerous other Catholic sources that remain in good standing with your church? Oh wait... that has already been done and you simply ignored the information. Why is it that you insist that Sunday observance started with the Apostles when even your own church doesn't hold that view?

What people are able to observe first hand IS what directs what they think about things.

Surely you aren't serious in that assertion. The reaction a person has to an event or body of knowledge is processed with a bias that accords with their past experiences, education, religious beliefs, etc. We all saw that 9/11 attacks on the WTC; yet there are many different reactions and ideas about what 'really' happened. I'd prefer a witness to stick to the facts and leave his personal musings out of it so that I can make up my own mind.

I'm getting to like you Palehorse. Why have we not reasoned together more often?

I am only recently come back to this forum after being away for some time. And even now I cannot post as regularly as I'd like due to other commitments (college, family, etc.)

 

[PaleHorse]

It's interesting to see all the arguments each are using to shore up their beliefs. But the simple matter is, as RND has stated many times, the FACT that there was and is the commandment to 'keep holy the 7th day (not the first day) of the week--PERIOD! With this FACT, there can be no intelligent debate--it's in your face, plain.

And along with this FACT lies the eternal question, "Whom will you serve"? "Whom will you OBEY"? God's law or man's tradition? The choice has eternal consequences.

AMEN!

 

[Norbert L]

Alonzo T. Jones from the wiki page: Alonzo T. Jones - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"In 1889,... spoke before a United States Congressional subcommittee; the topic of discussion was the “Breckinridge Bill” which proposed the compulsion of Sunday observance in the Washington, D.C. environs. Jones’s testimony helped to defeat this bill, and Jones became known for his abilities in defense of and knowledge regarding freedom of religion."

A video with actors using the dialogue that happenned that day can be found here:

menu

The man had a profound and insightful argument against any such bill.

It's also on youtube but they cut it short at a point to make it sound as if Alonzo was making an unworthy comparison and that a Sunday law is actually for the benefit of society.
YouTube - The Seventh Day: Jones and Blair

 

[Pythons]

Oh c'mon. Do you realize you just contradicted yourself? Did they cease or didn't they?

Show me how I did that.

You claim that the Apostles (who lived in the 1st century) celebrated Sunday; yet we are reading a 5th century account that says the Christians in two locations ceased observing Sabbath - which indicates the majority of locations WERE still observing Sabbath into the 5th century. Which is it, Pythons? Are you now contending that the Christians were observing Sunday in the 1st century, then switched to the Sabbath at some point, and then switched back to Sunday worship by the 5th century? For your statement to be accurate, the Christians at Rome & Alexandria would have had to do such a double-switch.

It's your premise that's causing issues Palehorse. Sozeman states that Christians in Constantinople and almost everywhere assemble together on Sabbath AND Sunday WHILE the Christians at Rome and Alexandria do not observe THAT custom (assembling on both days). You start with the premise that it was one day OR the other when the only source you can produce, states it was BOTH DAYS.

No one "switched" the Sabbath. As an offshoot from Judaism, Christianity as a whole would have kept going into the Synagogues to convert the Jews however all Christians worshiped Christ as God on Sunday.

I'm having a hard time installing the plug-in so that I can review the document you've linked to... allow me some time to respond to this portion of your post.

It's just basically the General Conference Archives for their church paper going back to it's inception. I threw that link up so that you could read that A.T. Jones was an Arian, believed Christ was born at some point back in eternity then of course was "born again" on earth.

Would you prefer I quote numerous other Catholic sources that remain in good standing with your church? Oh wait... that has already been done and you simply ignored the information. Why is it that you insist that Sunday observance started with the Apostles when even your own church doesn't hold that view?

That's just it, Catholicism does indeed hold that Sunday is Apostolic. You believe that all Christians worshiped on Sabbath TO THE EXCLUSION of Sunday and therefore conclude that since Christians never met for worship on Sunday the Church was somehow able to sneak in Sunday worship thus changing laws. Christians ALWAYS met on Sunday from the start and for a period of time all Christians met on BOTH DAYS. Eventually, most Christians ceased to meet on both days and left it at Sunday. Within the period of history spoken of by Socrates and Sozeman the Eastern half of the Church were still meeting on both days while the Western half of the Church were meeting on only Sunday.

Surely you aren't serious in that assertion. The reaction a person has to an event or body of knowledge is processed with a bias that accords with their past experiences, education, religious beliefs, etc. We all saw that 9/11 attacks on the WTC; yet there are many different reactions and ideas about what 'really' happened. I'd prefer a witness to stick to the facts and leave his personal musings out of it so that I can make up my own mind.

The mechanical aspects of the planes crashing into the WTC towers and subsequent damage are something everyone can agree with. The beliefs of the operators of those planes again, are something that's not in question. They think we are "the great Satan" and we agree that they think that so there isn't really any atoms being split here nor is there any atoms being split with Sozeman. What you are requesting is that we leave Sozeman's (the guy who spent all the time in study of this) musings out of it so that you are able to read his work through the musings of Ellen White. Is that right?

I am only recently come back to this forum after being away for some time. And even now I cannot post as regularly as I'd like due to other commitments (college, family, etc.)

Are you going into law?

 

[RND]

If that's the case the Apostles were "used" by Satan to do it.

There is -zero- evidence from the Bible record to indicate that the apostles kept Sunday.

 

[RND]

That's just it, Catholicism does indeed hold that Sunday is Apostolic.

No they don't. Catholicism asserts it changed the sabbath to Sunday because she had the authority and power to do so.

[SIZE=+0]"The Catholic Church, ... by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday... [/SIZE][SIZE=+0]Reason and sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday, or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is impossible."
(Catholic Cardinal James Gibbons, The Catholic Mirror, Dec. 23, 1893.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]
[/SIZE]
"You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify."
(Catholic Cardinal James Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers, 1917 ed., pp. 72, 73.)


"If protestants were following the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church."
(Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, letter of Feb. 10, 1920.)


[SIZE=+0]"Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday.... Now the Church instituted, by God's authority, Sunday as the day of worship."
(Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About, 1927 ed., p. 136.)[/SIZE]

You believe that all Christians worshiped on Sabbath TO THE EXCLUSION of Sunday and therefore conclude that since Christians never met for worship on Sunday the Church was somehow able to sneak in Sunday worship thus changing laws.

The point, as expressed a number of times is that whether no one kept the sabbath from the beginning does nothing to change the directive of God. Nothing.

Christians ALWAYS met on Sunday from the start and for a period of time all Christians met on BOTH DAYS.

There is nothing in the Bible accounts that prove this assertion.

 

[Pythons]

No they don't. Catholicism asserts it changed the sabbath to Sunday because she had the authority and power to do so.

[SIZE=+0]"The Catholic Church, ... by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday... [/SIZE][SIZE=+0]Reason and sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday, or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is impossible."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0](Catholic Cardinal James Gibbons, The Catholic Mirror, Dec. 23, 1893.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]
[/SIZE]
"You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify."
(Catholic Cardinal James Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers, 1917 ed., pp. 72, 73.)


"If protestants were following the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church."
(Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, letter of Feb. 10, 1920.)


[SIZE=+0]"Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday.... Now the Church instituted, by God's authority, Sunday as the day of worship."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0](Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About, 1927 ed., p. 136.)[/SIZE]



The point, as expressed a number of times is that whether no one kept the sabbath from the beginning does nothing to change the directive of God. Nothing.




There is nothing in the Bible accounts that prove this assertion.

The Church asserts that IT issues the Commands of God in keeping with very solid Biblical accounts.

1

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter [independently], and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

2

Verily I say unto you [collectively], Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

3

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen

A

The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen

B

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you

C

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Jesus selected Apostles and informed them collectively that they would have the same binding and loosing power of the Scribes and Pharisees , Jesus selected Peter independently that he would have binding and loosing power.

Jesus said He was going to "BUILD A CHURCH" and after His departure the Holy Ghost would continue to guide and issue commandments through the Apostles. The Holy Ghost was GIVEN through the laying on of hands and in times of trouble for the Church when a doctrine was pressed on the Church the Church came together in Council and issued doctrines that were BINDING on the Church. This isn't difficult and can be tracked with ease.

People who teach things that stand against the Church have zero authority according to the Bible.

Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment

Does a Messianic Jew practice circumcision and keep the law of Moses RND? While they can apply what they want for themselves they have zero authority in establishing doctrines that are outside what the Church has already established. They have no authority whatsoever to say because of this or that Scripture you must follow the law of Moses. The points of faith are established by Apostolic Authority if you model after the Bible.

We have been through Gibbons previously, all the points I've raised before still stand as they did. Gibbons believed that the Apostles were all Catholic therefore he can say that the Catholic Church "commanded" that Sunday was going to be "the day". If a Catholic says that keeping Sunday is following the Catholic Church it's because they understand that the Apostles were ALL Catholic. Google "Catholic Epistles"

General epistles (also called Catholic Epistles) are books in the New Testament in the form of letters. They are termed "general" because for the most part their intended audience seems to be Christians in general rather than individual persons or congregations as is the case with the Pauline epistles.

The five New Testament epistles (James, I and II Peter, I John, and Jude) that were addressed to the universal church rather than to particular Christian communities.

the five New Testament letters including James, I and II Peter, I John, and Jude addressed to the early Christian churches at large

The five New Testament epistles (James, I and II Peter, I John, and Jude) that were addressed to the universal church rather than to particular Christian communities.

You want to impress me start to quote out of the CCC or official documents of the Church.

 

[RND]

The Church asserts that IT issues the Commands of God in keeping with very solid Biblical accounts.

No, it says it "changed" the law.

1

Peter, "little rock."

2

Hebrew idiom. Has nothing to do with changing God's law.

3

Jesus never commanded the Law of God to be broken.

A

There is nothing to suggest the commandments given by the Holy Spirit were contrary to the Law of God. If there was it would make God inconsistent and therefore a liar.

B

Teaching contrary to the commandments of God?

C

Pure hubris. The Catholic church has -zero- rule over me. I have submitted to the King of Kings, not an imposter that rules by presumption.

We have been through Gibbons previously, all the points I've raised before still stand as they did. Gibbons believed that the Apostles were all Catholic therefore he can say that the Catholic Church "commanded" that Sunday was going to be "the day". If a Catholic says that keeping Sunday is following the Catholic Church it's because they understand that the Apostles were ALL Catholic. Google "Catholic Epistles"

That would be the equivalent of saying I believe the apostles were really the Seven Dwarfs, Manny, Moe and Jack and Martin and Costello.

It makes no difference.

There is nothing in the Bible that supports and proves that the sabbath was changed.

You want to impress me start to quote out of the CCC or official documents of the Church.

Yes, we know. You'd rather follow the pagan Roman "Sun" church to hell than listen to reason and truth. Again, just like the quotes show to be true the Catholic church claims it changed sabbath to Sunday.

Q. What is the third Commandment?
A. The third Commandment is: Remember thou keep holy the Sabbath day.
Q. How are we to worship God on Sundays and holydays of obligation?
A. We are to worship God on Sundays and holydays of obligation by hearing Mass, by prayer, and by other good works.
​

Source:

A Catechism of Christian Doctrine (No. 1), prepared and enjoined by order of the Third Plenary Council of Baltimore, bearing the Imprimatur of the Catholic Church, Copyright 1885, by J. L. Spalding, published by P. J. Kenedy & Sons, printers to the Holy Apostolic See, 44 Barclay St., New York, page 36.


The following Catholic catechisms also boldly state that Sunday is the day commanded to be kept holy:

Q. Say the Third Commandment.
A. Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.
Q. What is commanded by the Third Commandment?
A. To sanctify the Sunday.
Q. Which is the chief duty by which we are commanded to sanctify the Sunday?
A. Assisting at the holy sacrifice of the Mass.
​

Source:

The Most Rev. Dr. James Butler's Catechism, revised, enlarged, improved, and recommended by the four R. C. Archbishops of Ireland, published in New York by P. J. Kenedy, 1886, page 34.


Cardinal Gasparri's Catholic Catechism

Article 3. The Third Commandment of the Decalogue.
(203) What does God command in the Third Commandment--"Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath Day"?
In the Third Commandment-"Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath Day"--God commands that festival days--that is, days dedicated to Him--should be kept with divine worship, business and bodily toil being laid aside. 190
(204) What were the festival days in the Old Testament?
In the Old Testament there were many festival days, but the chief one was the Sabbath, the very name of which signifies the rest needful for the worship of God, whence it is called "the day of rest."
(205) Why is the Sabbath day not observed under the New Testament?
The Sabbath day is not observed under the New Testament, because in its place the Church keeps Sunday in honor of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the coming
[pg. 121]
down of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost; the Church also adds other festival days. 191
(206) To what, then, are we bound nowadays as regards keeping festival days holy?
As regards keeping festival days holy we are to-day bound to sanctify, in the manner proscribed by the Church, the Sundays and other Feast Days appointed by her 192
190 Exod. xx, 8; xxxi, 13; Deut. v, 12-15.
191 The commandment about keeping the Sabbath holy was not, if we consider only the day actually stated, a fixed and constant one, but a variable one, nor was it so much a moral as a ceremonial precept. If, however, we consider the commandment itself, it will be evident that it has its moral aspect and forms part of the natural law. Moreover the date at which the keeping of the Sabbath was removed was precisely that at which the rest of the Hebrew cult and ceremonial was to cease―namely the day of Christ's death. See the Catechism of the Council of Trent, III, iv, 4ff.
​

Source:

The Catholic Catechism, by Peter Cardinal Gasparri, translated by the Rev. Hugh Pope, O.P., second printing, copyright 1932 and printed by P. J. Kenedy & Sons, Typographi Pontificii, 12 Barclay Street, New York, questions 203-206, pages 120-121.

 

[RND]

Advanced Catechism

354. What are we commanded by the third Commandment?
By the third Commandment we are commanded to keep holy the Lord's day and the holy days of obligation, on which we are to give our time to the service and worship of God.
Which is now the Lord's Day?
The Lord's day now is Sunday, in memory of the Resurrection of Christ and of the Descent of the Holy Ghost.
355. How are we to worship God on Sundays and holydays of obligation?
We are to worship God on Sundays and holydays of obligation by hearing Mass, by prayer, and by other good works. ...
356. Are the Sabbath day and the Sunday the same?
The Sabbath day and the Sunday are not the same. The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week, and is the day which was kept holy in the old law; the Sunday is the first day of the week, and is the day which is kept holy in the new law.
Who made the change from Saturday to Sunday?
The change from Saturday to Sunday was made by the Apostles, though the Bible does not clearly teach Sunday observance.
357. Why does the Church command us to keep the Sunday holy instead of the Sabbath?
The Church commands us to keep the Sunday holy instead of the Sabbath because on Sunday Christ rose from the dead, and on Sunday He sent the Holy Ghost upon the Apostles.
358. What is forbidden by the third Commandment?
The third Commandment forbids all unnecessary servile work and whatever else may hinder the due observance of the Lord's day.
​

Source:

Advanced Catechism Of Catholic Faith And Practice, based upon the Third Plenary Council Catechism for use in the higher grades of Catholic Schools, compiled by Rev. Thomas J. O'brien, inspector of Parochial Schools, Diocese of Brooklyn, published by John B. Oink, Chicago Ill., copyright 1929, pages 180-182.


Baltimore Catechism #2

10. Q. What are we commanded by the third Commandment?
A. By the third Commandment we are commanded to keep holy the Lord's day and the holy days of obligation, on which we are to give our time to the service and worship of God.
11. Q. How are we to worship God on Sundays and holydays of obligation?
A. We are to worship God on Sundays and holydays of obligation by hearing Mass, by prayer, and by other good works.
12. Q. Are the Sabbath day and the Sunday the same?
A. The Sabbath day and the Sunday are not the same. The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week, and is the day which was kept holy in the old law; the Sunday is the first day of the week, and is the day which is kept holy in the new law.
13. Q. Why does the Church command us to keep the Sunday holy instead of the Sabbath?
A. The Church commands us to keep the Sunday holy instead of the Sabbath because on Sunday Christ rose from the dead, and on Sunday He sent the Holy Ghost upon the Apostles.
14. Q. What is forbidden by the third Commandment?
A. The third Commandment forbids all unnecessary servile work and whatever else may hinder the due observance of the Lord's day.
​

Source:

A Catechism of Christian Doctrine, prepared and enjoined by the order of the Third Plenary Council of Baltimore, New Edition, No. 2, Imprimatur by John Cardinal McCloskey, Archbishop of New York, and approved by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, published in 1885 by Broadway Church Goods House, 719 N. Broadway, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, page 64.


Great is the authority of the Church

You will have noticed, my dear children, that the day on which we keep the Sabbath is not the same as that on which it was observed by the Jews. They kept and still keep the Sabbath upon Saturday, we upon Sunday; they on the seventh day, we on the first day of the week. Hence the Jews close their shops and attend their synagogues upon Saturday, but Sunday is observed as the day of rest by all Christians, even by those sects who are separated from the Catholic Church. You will ask, what is the reason of this? It is because the Apostles, who were the first pastors of the Church, by the authority which [p. 107] they had received from our Blessed Lord to regulate all that regards his public worship, changed the day appointed for the keeping of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday — from the seventh to the first day of the week. And why did they do so? To honour the glorious Resurrection of our Lord and the Descent of the Holy Ghost upon the Apostles, both of which mysteries were accomplished on the first day of the week. From this we may understand how great is the authority of the Church in interpreting or explaining to us the commandments of God — an authority which is acknowledged by the universal practice of the whole Christian world, even of those sects who profess to take the Holy Scriptures as their sole rule of faith, since they observe as the day of rest not the seventh day of the week commanded by the Bible, but the first day, which we know is to be kept holy, only from the tradition and teaching of the Catholic Church.
​

Source:

Catechism Made Easy, Being A Familiar Explanation Of The Catechism Of Christian Doctrine, by the Rev. Henry Gibson, Vol. II., Liverpool: printed by Rockliff Brothers, 44 Castle Street. London: R. Washbourne, 18, Paternoster Row, 1874, pgs. 106-107.

​

A Convert's Catechism

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 336), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her.
Q. What does the Third Commandment command?
A. The Third Commandment commands us to sanctify Sunday as the Lord's Day.
​

Source:

The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, by Reverend Peter Geiermann, C.S.R., Copyright 1910 by Joseph Gummersbach, blessed by Pope Pius X on the 25th of January 1910 via Cardinal Merry Del Val, published by B. Herder Book Co, 15 and 17 South Broadway, St. Louis, Mo., and London, W. C. 33 Queen Square, in 1937, Twelfth Edition, page 50.

... in 336 A.D., the Catholic Church, at the Council of Laodicea, made the ecclesiastical law obliging the faithful to attend Mass and to abstain from servile works on Sundays. And all Christians accepted that law in virtue of the divine authority Christ gave to His Church when He said, "Whatsoever you bind upon earth shall be bound also in Heaven; and whatsoever you loose upon earth shall be loosed also in Heaven" (Matt., xviii, 18).
What does all this mean? It means that the Seventh Day Adventists are wrong in saying that the Jewish Sabbath still obliges, for there is clear authority in the Bible for its abrogation.
Seventh Day Adventists are right, however, in accusing other Protestants of inconsistency who speak of any obligation of Sunday observance whilst rejecting the authority of the Catholic Church. It is not that there is no authority in the Bible for Sunday observance. But there is no direct authority for it as an obligation. The only direct authority for it is that of the Catholic Church; but that involves the authority of the Bible at least indirectly in so far as the Bible itself teaches clearly that the Catholic Church is directly authorized by Christ to legislate in His name.
​

Source:

Seventh Day Adventists, by Rev. Dr. L. Rumble. M.S.C., published by The Australian Catholic Truth Society Record, February 10, 1950, pamphlet No. 446, printed by The Advocate Press, 143-151 o'Beckett St., Melbourne, pg. 24.

A Catholic Catechism​

THIRD COMMANDMENT OF GOD
"THOU SHALT NOT DO UNNECESSARY SERVILE WORK ON THE
LORD'S DAY, BUT PERFORM WORKS PLEASING TO GOD."​

...
227. Which is the Lord's Day?
The Lord's Day is Sunday.
...
The LAW of keeping Sunday holy, instead of the Sabbath, was made by the Church, probably by the apostles.​

Source:

A Catholic Catechism for the Parochial and Sunday Schools of the United States, Rev. James Groenings, Priest of the Society of Jesus, translated by Very Rev. James Rockliff, of the same Society, Benzinger Brothers, Printers to the Holy Apostolic See, copyright 1900, Nihil Obstat: Theodore Van Rossum, S.J., Censor Deputatus, Imprimatur: Michael Augustine, Archbishop of New York, page 65.​

 

[RND]

Sundaykeeping is not founded on Scripture
"It is a matter of wonderment to us to see Catholic clergymen using the word ' Sabbath ' for ' Sunday. ' We protest energetically against the Protestant mode of speech. It does not look well for Catholics to knuckle to such Protestant fantastic notions. Sunday is founded, not on Scripture, but on tradition, and is distinctly a Catholic institution. As there is no Scripture for the transfer of the day of rest from the last to the first day of the week, Protestants ought to keep their Sabbath on Saturday, and thus leave Catholics in full possession of Sunday." — Catholic Record, Sept. 17, 1891.




The Catholic Christian Instructed.

[p. 202]
Q. What are the days which the Church commands to be kept holy?
A. 1st, The Sunday, or the Lord’s day, which we observe by apostolical tradition, instead of the Sabbath. …
Q. What warrant have you for keeping the Sunday, preferably to the ancient Sabbath, which was the Saturday?
A. We have for it the authority of the Catholic Church, and apostolical tradition.
Q. Does the scripture any where command the Sunday to be kept for the Sabbath?
A. The scripture commands us to hear the Church, St. Matt. xviii. 17. St. Luke x. 16, and to hold fast the traditions of the Apostles, 2 Thess. ii. 15, but the scripture does not in particular mention this change of the Sabbath. St. John speaks of the Lord's day, Rev. i. 10; but he does not tell us what day of the week this was, much less does he tell us that this day was to take the place of the Sabbath ordained in the commandments: St. Luke also speaks of the disciples meeting together to break bread on the first day of the week, Acts xx. 7. And St. Paul, I Cor. xvi 2, orders that on the first day of the week the Corinthians should lay by in store what they designed to bestow in charity on the faithful in Judea: but neither the one nor the other tells us, that this first day of
[p. 203]
the week was to be henceforward the day of worship, and the Christian Sabbath; so that truly, the best authority we have for this is the testimony and ordinance of the Church. And therefore, those who pretend to be so religious of the Sunday, whilst they take no notice of other festivals ordained by the same Church authority, show that they act by humor, and not by reason and religion; since Sundays and holydays all stand upon the same foundation, viz, the ordinance of the Church. ...
​

[p. 204]
Q. What was the reason why the weekly Sabbath was changed from the Saturday to the Sunday?
A. Because our Lord fully accomplished the work of our redemption by rising from the dead on a Sunday, and by sending down the Holy Ghost on a Sunday: as therefore the work of our redemption was a greater work than that of our creation, the primitive Church thought the day, in which this work was completely finished, was more worthy [of] her religious observation than that in which God rested from the creation, and should be properly called the Lord’s day.
Q. But has the Church a power to make any alterations in the commandments of God?
A. The commandments of God, as far as they contain his eternal law, are unalterable and indispensable; but as to whatever was only ceremonial, they cease to oblige, since the Mosaic law was abrogated by Christ's death. Hence, as far as the commandment obliges us to set aside some part of our time for the worship and service of our Creator, it is an unalterable and unchangeable precept of the eternal law, in which the Church cannot dispense: but for as much as it prescribes the seventh day in particular for this purpose, it is no more than a ceremonial precept of the old law, which obligeth not Christians. And therefore, instead of the seventh day, and other festivals appointed in the old law, the Church has prescribed the Sundays and holydays to be set apart for God's worship; and these we are now obliged to keep in consequence of God's commandment, instead of the ancient Sabbath.
​

Source:

The Catholic Christian Instructed in the Sacraments, Sacrifice, Ceremonies, and Observances of the Church, by the Right Rev. Dr. Richard Challoner,published in Baltimore in 1852 by John Murphy & Co., pp. 202 - 204.


No Scriptural Warrant for Baptizing Infants or Observing Sunday

It is true, Catholics do not hold, as Protestants profess to do, that nothing can possibly be matter of divine revelation which is not contained in holy Scripture, nor do Protestants themselves in fact, though they do in words; for they believe the inspiration of holy Scripture to be matter of Divine revelation, yet this, from the very nature of the [pg 10] case, cannot rest on the testimony of Scripture itself. So, too, with the duty of baptizing infants, and of observing Sunday instead of Saturday as the Christian holiday, on which points Protestants believe and act as Catholics do, while yet they would be puzzled to find Scripture warrant for so doing. ...
​

Source:

Library of Controversy - The Clifton Tracts, by the Brotherhood of St. Vincent of Paul, Volume 1, How Do We Know What The Bible Means?, published about 1854 in New York by P. J. Kenedy, Excelsior Catholic Publishing House, 5 Barclay Street, pages 9, 10.



Not one scintilla of scriptural proof that Sunday is divinely appointed:

And now we would ask upon what religious grounds these earnest advocates for a more strict observance of Sunday [Protestants] base their claims to make Sunday a day of worship. If all the new law is contained in the Scripture, there is not one scintilla of proof that it is the divinely appointed day. Their citadel is not built upon sand—its condition is worse, it has no foundation at all. It is said in Holy Writ that "on the first day of the week the disciples were gathered for prayer and the breaking of bread." It is also said that on "another occasion, they were gathered for the same purpose on the first day of the week to hear St. Paul, who preached until midnight." St. John, it is said, was in the spirit on "the Lord's day." But this is a mere recital of facts, it is not the promulgation of a law. It is not the language, nor does it carry the sanction of a law. Who then, made Sunday, the first day of the week, the newly appointed day of worship? The divine organism that traces its history through the centuries back to Christ, that received the commission, "Go and teach all nations;" that received from the hands of Christ, the divine founder of the new covenant, the new law of worship, in whose hands was placed the gift of infallible truth. To that divine organization, the Catholic Church, was given the law of worship, and she alone decreed and she alone had the right to decree that Sunday, the first day of the week, should be the future day of religious worship. The substance remained as St. Paul says and the victim of her altars was to be worshipped. So the substance was preserved; she, therefore, decreed the law, the day of worship and all the ordinances of that worship. All outside of her [Protestants] are fighting from a religious point view for a cause which does not belong to them. The Christian Sunday rests solely upon the teachings of tradition, which they reject.
​

Source:

Western Watchman, a Catholic journal devoted to the interests of the Catholic Church in the West, published in St. Louis, Mo., September 19, 1895, front page article: "Christian Sunday", synopsis of a sermon presented at St. Andrews Cathedral by Dr. Callaghan, on Sunday Sept. 1st., 1895.

 

[RND]

The ridiculous claim that Peter is the so-called "rock" on which the Church has been built is based solely on the poor understanding and even poorer interpretation of Matthew 16:18.

Peter (petros - meaning "little stone") confessed: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus then said to him, "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter (petros - meaning "little stone"), and upon this rock (petra- "large stone") I will build my church." It is this verse that Rome has based it's entire doctrine, yet Christ would never had a need to build His Church on a human being.

The word "Peter" in the Greek is 'petros,' Strong's 4074 meaning 'little stone.' Christ said He would build His Church upon 'this rock' which was Peter's declaration - in the Greek 'petra', Strong's 4073 meaning 'a large rock.' Jesus meant that the contrast between the large stone and small rock was that Peter was one of the small rocks in the church which Peter actually confirms:

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Christ Himself was the Foundation Stone. This is confirmed by Paul:

1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
The true Church the one built on the Word of God and that Word only is home of all the true believers. It is a spiritual house, the spiritual temple that Christ said He would build in three days, in which every true believer is a living stone. Christ is the chief foundation and cornerstone.

The dangerously false doctrine that Peter was the rock on which the Church of Jesus Christ was built is an obvious and outright denial of the deity of Jesus Christ and His position as Head of the Church. It is an outright usurpation of deity, placing it upon a man and makes Jesus only the "fruit of thy (Mary's) womb Jesus" instead of the Son of God.

Such dangerous doctrines then go on to further corrupt the Gospel of Jesus Christ by stating others are just as responsible for the salvation of men as Christ is.

The Roman Catholic Church which is steeped in false paganism "sun" worship dating back to the days of Babylon falsely teaches that Peter, a wonderful and honorable servant of Jesus Christ, was the first Pope and founded the Church at Rome. Nothing could be further than the truth.

There is no way Peter would have ever donned the pagan symbol of Dagon let alone carried an emmaciated Christ on the cross.

 

[reddogs]

Oh c'mon. Do you realize you just contradicted yourself? Did they cease or didn't they? You claim that the Apostles (who lived in the 1st century) celebrated Sunday; yet we are reading a 5th century account that says the Christians in two locations ceased observing Sabbath - which indicates the majority of locations WERE still observing Sabbath into the 5th century. Which is it, Pythons? Are you now contending that the Christians were observing Sunday in the 1st century, then switched to the Sabbath at some point, and then switched back to Sunday worship by the 5th century? For your statement to be accurate, the Christians at Rome & Alexandria would have had to do such a double-switch.



I'm having a hard time installing the plug-in so that I can review the document you've linked to... allow me some time to respond to this portion of your post.


Would you prefer I quote numerous other Catholic sources that remain in good standing with your church? Oh wait... that has already been done and you simply ignored the information. Why is it that you insist that Sunday observance started with the Apostles when even your own church doesn't hold that view?


Surely you aren't serious in that assertion. The reaction a person has to an event or body of knowledge is processed with a bias that accords with their past experiences, education, religious beliefs, etc. We all saw that 9/11 attacks on the WTC; yet there are many different reactions and ideas about what 'really' happened. I'd prefer a witness to stick to the facts and leave his personal musings out of it so that I can make up my own mind.


I am only recently come back to this forum after being away for some time. And even now I cannot post as regularly as I'd like due to other commitments (college, family, etc.)

Cant see the forest for all the trees seems to be the case