Sunday law?

RND

Senior Veteran
Jul 20, 2006
7,807
145
Victorville, California, CorpUSA
Visit site
✟23,772.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Piece of cake....

YouTube - Chasers : War on Everything -Americans

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children."
 

RND

Senior Veteran
Jul 20, 2006
7,807
145
Victorville, California, CorpUSA
Visit site
✟23,772.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Besides showing how easy it will be to sway people one way or the other, i'm not exactly sure how this would directly relate to the sunday law.

Well, that's just it Stryder06 people will be easily swayed when told by their "government" and by their "leaders" and by their "churches" that we must "keep Sunday" holy because of this, that and the other reason. It will be easy then to use "those that don't want to go along with the program" lingo to single out those that choose the sabbath.

The video demonstrates how hopeless, in general, we are as a nation in understanding extremely recent history like the war in Iraq and even when 9/11 happened and shows clearly just how easy a Sunday law could be passed.
 
Upvote 0

Stryder06

Check the signature
Jan 9, 2009
13,856
519
✟31,839.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Well, that's just it Stryder06 people will be easily swayed when told by their "government" and by their "leaders" and by their "churches" that we must "keep Sunday" holy because of this, that and the other reason. It will be easy then to use "those that don't want to go along with the program" lingo to single out those that choose the sabbath.

The video demonstrates how hopeless, in general, we are as a nation in understanding extremely recent history like the war in Iraq and even when 9/11 happened and shows clearly just how easy a Sunday law could be passed.

Ok, I was pretty sure that was the direction you were going in. It is ad indeed to think of how easily people will be swayed. Especially when the plagues fall upon the land and we get blamed for it.
 
Upvote 0

Jimlarmore

Senior Veteran
Oct 25, 2006
2,572
51
74
✟17,990.00
Faith
SDA
The "Bilderbergers" and the tri-lateral commissioner's have all stated that the best way to enact unconstitutional laws is thru extreme circumstances. Some of these can be things like global economic collapse, global terrorism, etc. When the time comes for the "National Sunday law" to be passed it will seem like the most logical thing in the world to do. IOW, anyone who would oppose it would be considered out of their minds. Keep looking to the immediate and near future, things are transpiring that epochal in nature.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
Upvote 0

RND

Senior Veteran
Jul 20, 2006
7,807
145
Victorville, California, CorpUSA
Visit site
✟23,772.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Even so, if no one, not one person had ever kept the sabbath feverishly for the first few hundreds of years would mean that there wasn't a sabbath commandment to observe and keep or just simple proof that the commandment was being ignored?

When Christians were fed steadily to the lions, in effect murdering them, was that proof that the commandment against murder was obsolete and done away with or just being ignored?

Conversely, if the sabbath wasn't being observed and kept then there would be absolutely no reason necessary to make laws (Constantine 321AD, Laodicea 364AD) to prevent sabbath keeping.

So history is itself a witness against the fact that the laws enacted by men to prevent their fellow man from observing the sabbath was indeed proof that the sabbath was being observed and kept.
 
Upvote 0

Pythons

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2008
4,215
226
✟5,503.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Even so, if no one, not one person had ever kept the sabbath feverishly for the first few hundreds of years would mean that there wasn't a sabbath commandment to observe and keep or just simple proof that the commandment was being ignored?

I've got to hand it to ya, you are crafty. Ellen White said "ALL" Christians kept the Sabbath for the first few hundred years yet I was able to produce a historical account of a man who believed enough that he would rather die then defect his Christian Faith. You telling me that Justin was willing to give up his life because he was convinced the mass was true however he trampled upon the Sabbath and wasn't willing to give up his life for it? The Christians in the first 300 years took a brutal beating and not one of them was fed to lions on account of the Sabbath - the Romans had guards and spys watching suspected houses of worship ON SUNDAY RND, the Romans could care less about Saturday.

RND said:
When Christians were fed steadily to the lions, in effect murdering them, was that proof that the commandment against murder was obsolete and done away with or just being ignored?

Christians didn't throw Christians to the lions RND, pagan Rome was throwing Christians, who historically and Biblically met for worship on Sunday, to the Lions. The early Christians obviously took their faith seriously enough to walk into a brutal death praising Christ as God - They didn't ignore what they believed was the apostolic faith.


RND said:
Conversely, if the sabbath wasn't being observed and kept then there would be absolutely no reason necessary to make laws (Constantine 321AD, Laodicea 364AD) to prevent sabbath keeping.

The Christians had always met on Sunday, therefore, when Constantine "legalized" Christianity he made it possible for all Christians to attend the mass. Instead of sneaking into fellow members houses prior to the sun coming up a person could, without fear, go to church. Where did you read your take on this?

Canon 29 of Laodicea, I thought we covered this a while back? In any event this still does not say what you need it to say. Saturday was viewed as a "feast day" and people laid around, drank, etc. There was no worship going on as Christian worship was held on Sunday (the mass)

Sunday did not become a "day of rest" similar to the Sabbath until around 790 or so. In Christianity, Sunday has always been the day of worship and gradually some of the elements of Jewish Sabbath rest were moved over into it. I believe this became official at the time of Charlemagne when he forbid any work to be done on Sunday and also the feast days ordained by the Church.


RND said:
So history is itself a witness against the fact that the laws enacted by men to prevent their fellow man from observing the sabbath was indeed proof that the sabbath was being observed and kept.

They were not "observing" the Sabbath RND. It's true that the majority of Christians in Asia Minor laying around or resting on Saturday however ANY historical source will tell you that those same Christians, without cease attended Mass every Sunday. Christians did not worship on Saturday RND, the Church had to force the issue that the Scriptures should be read on Saturday if Christians gathered together for a feast.
 
Upvote 0

honorthesabbath

Senior Veteran
Aug 10, 2005
4,065
78
75
Arkansas
✟19,680.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Wrong again oh Carnac Pythons!
ts


Look what your own church fathers have to say about Sunday observance..

"All of us believe many things in regard to religion that we do not find in the Bible. For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the apostles changed [the day] from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath Day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the Church outside the Bible."-- "To Tell You The Truth," The Catholic Virginian, 22, October 3, 1947, p. 9.

"Is there no express commandment for the observance of the first day of the week as a Sabbath, instead of the seventh day?
"None whatever. Neither Christ nor His apostles nor the first Christians celebrated [observed] the first day of the week, instead of the seventh as the Sabbath." --New York Weekly Tribune [Roman Catholic], May 24, 1900.


"Some non-Catholics object to Purgatory because there is no specific mention of it in Scripture. There is no specific mention of the word Sunday in Scripture [either]. The Sabbath is mentioned, but Sabbath means [a keeping of] Saturday. Yet the Christians of almost all denominations worship on Sunday not on Saturday. The Jews observe Saturday. Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday."--Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics are Asked About, 1927, p. 236 [Scott (1865-1954) was a Jesuit theologian and one of the foremost Catholic defenders of his time].

"Is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may search the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify."--James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers, 92nd ed., rev., p. 89 [Cardinal Gibbons (1834-1921) was archbishop of Baltimore. This book was the most famous Catholic book in America a hundred years ago].

"The Israelite respects the authority of the Old Testament only, but the Adventist who is a Christian, accepts the New Testament on the same ground as the Old, viz.: an inspired record also. He finds that the Bible, his teacher is consistent in both parts; that the Redeemer, during His mortal life, never kept any other day than Saturday. The Gospels plainly evince to him this fact; while in the pages of the Acts of the Apostles, the Epistles and the Apocalypse [Revelation], not the vestige of an act canceling the Saturday arrangement [seventh-day Sabbathkeeping] can be found. The Christian Sabbath, 2nd ed., The Catholic Mirror, 1893, p. 31.

"The Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant."--The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4 [This is the political weekly newspaper at the Cleveland Catholic Diocese].

"Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act . . . AND THE ACT IS A MARK of her ecclesiastical power."--from the office of Cardinal Gibbons, through Chancellor H.F. Thomas, November 11, 1895.

There is much more--so go here to read it...Tract 22h - Catholicism Speaks about the Bible Sabbath and Sunday
 
Upvote 0

RND

Senior Veteran
Jul 20, 2006
7,807
145
Victorville, California, CorpUSA
Visit site
✟23,772.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I've got to hand it to ya, you are crafty.

Truth is a wonderful thing.

Ellen White said "ALL" Christians kept the Sabbath for the first few hundred years yet I was able to produce a historical account of a man who believed enough that he would rather die then defect his Christian Faith.

And? This is a non sequitur. Vain attempt at diversion.

You telling me that Justin was willing to give up his life because he was convinced the mass was true however he trampled upon the Sabbath and wasn't willing to give up his life for it?

He wouldn't be the first to die for a lie. But that also dodges the question. Is proof that the commandment wasn't followed proof it was done away with? By what command? Who's?

Mistakes?

"The Sabbath, the most glorious day in the law, has been changed into the Lord's day.... These and other similar matters have not ceased by virtue of Christ's teaching (for He says He has come to fulfill the law, not to destroy it), but they have been changed by the authority of the church."
(Archbishop Gaspare de Fosso, quotes from the Council of Trent preceedings in Sacrorum Conciliorum nova amplissima Collectio, 1902, vol. 33, pp. 529,530.)


"It is curious to recall that this observance of Sunday, which is the only principle of Protestantism, not only does not rest upon the Bible, but is in flagrant contradiction with the letter of the Bible requiring the rest of the Sabbath, or Saturday. It was the Catholic Church which, by the authority of Jesus Christ, has transferred this rest to Sunday."
(Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today, 1868 ed., p. 207.)


[SIZE=+0]"The Catholic Church, ... by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday... [/SIZE][SIZE=+0]Reason and sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday, or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is impossible."
(Catholic Cardinal James Gibbons, The Catholic Mirror, Dec. 23, 1893.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]
[/SIZE]
"You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify."
(Catholic Cardinal James Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers, 1917 ed., pp. 72, 73.)


"If protestants were following the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church."
(Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, letter of Feb. 10, 1920.)


[SIZE=+0]"Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday.... Now the Church instituted, by God's authority, Sunday as the day of worship."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0](Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About, 1927 ed., p. 136.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]"If we consulted the Bible only, we should still have to keep holy the Sabbath Day, that is, Saturday."
(John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies, 1936 ed., vol. 1, p. 51.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] [SIZE=+0]"The Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her Founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant, claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh Day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant."
(The Catholic Universe Bulletin, Aug. 14, 1942, p. 4.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]
[/SIZE]
"Since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn't it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible and not from the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes, of course, it is inconsistent. The custom of Sunday observance rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text in the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away - like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair."
(Roman Catholic scholar John A. O'Brien, The Faith of Millions, 1974, p.400,401.)


[/SIZE] "We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday."
(Peter Geiermann, The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, 1977, p.50.)


The Christians in the first 300 years took a brutal beating and not one of them was fed to lions on account of the Sabbath - the Romans had guards and spys watching suspected houses of worship ON SUNDAY RND, the Romans could care less about Saturday.

Empty statement, no facts. But again, even if that was 100% true is that evidence that the sabbath was abolished or ignored?

Christians didn't throw Christians to the lions RND, pagan Rome was throwing Christians, who historically and Biblically met for worship on Sunday, to the Lions. The early Christians obviously took their faith seriously enough to walk into a brutal death praising Christ as God - They didn't ignore what they believed was the apostolic faith.

So because they were pagans throwing people to the lions they weren't murdering?

I guess Hitler's cronies used the wrong excuse.


The Christians had always met on Sunday, therefore, when Constantine "legalized" Christianity he made it possible for all Christians to attend the mass. Instead of sneaking into fellow members houses prior to the sun coming up a person could, without fear, go to church. Where did you read your take on this?

The fact, fact, that a law had to be generated to prevent sabbath observance is proof that sabbath observance was taking place.

There is -zero- evidence that the sun/moon worship was taking place at the time of Constantine.

Canon 29 of Laodicea, I thought we covered this a while back? In any event this still does not say what you need it to say. Saturday was viewed as a "feast day" and people laid around, drank, etc. There was no worship going on as Christian worship was held on Sunday (the mass)

Let's see.

CHRISTIANS must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.

Christians can't "rest" on the sabbath and instead work on it and rest on the incorrectly named "Lord's Day."

Satan is mighty at work.

Sunday did not become a "day of rest" similar to the Sabbath until around 790 or so.

Not according to the Council of Laodicea. Besides, does that change the sabbath one iota?

In Christianity, Sunday has always been the day of worship and gradually some of the elements of Jewish Sabbath rest were moved over into it. I believe this became official at the time of Charlemagne when he forbid any work to be done on Sunday and also the feast days ordained by the Church.

That's the equivalent of saying that since people have always killed each other then killing is now OK. So what if Sunday has mistakenly been kept as a rest day, it doesn't mean that the sabbath commandment has been abolished, just ignored.


They were not "observing" the Sabbath RND. It's true that the majority of Christians in Asia Minor laying around or resting on Saturday however ANY historical source will tell you that those same Christians, without cease attended Mass every Sunday.

Really? Cite some sources that conclusively prove those same Christians, without cease attended Mass every Sunday. And what if? That doesn't answer the question asked namely:

"If no one, not one person had ever kept the sabbath feverishly for the first few hundreds of years would mean that there wasn't a sabbath commandment to observe and keep or just simple proof that the commandment was being ignored?"

Your failure to honestly answer and address this question directly makes known your answer to us.

Christians did not worship on Saturday RND,

And?

"If no one, not one person had ever kept the sabbath feverishly for the first few hundreds of years would mean that there wasn't a sabbath commandment to observe and keep or just simple proof that the commandment was being ignored?"

the Church had to force the issue that the Scriptures should be read on Saturday if Christians gathered together for a feast.

Prove? Any?

BTW, is this the same "church" that tortured and killed people for even reading Bible?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jimlarmore

Senior Veteran
Oct 25, 2006
2,572
51
74
✟17,990.00
Faith
SDA
The Christians had always met on Sunday, therefore, when Constantine "legalized" Christianity he made it possible for all Christians to attend the mass. Instead of sneaking into fellow members houses prior to the sun coming up a person could, without fear, go to church. Where did you read your take on this?

In Acts 17:1-2, Acts 26:4-5, Acts 13:4-44, and Acts 18:4 we see Paul teaching/preaching in the synagogue on the Sabbath and the Gentiles requesting he teach them the next Sabbath . Wasn't Paul Christian? I find no account of Christians worshiping on the first day of the week in the Bible anywhere. If we are to be "Christian" we should follow Christ's example, He kept the Sabbath holy and it was His custom to do so according to Luke4:16.

Pythons said:
Canon 29 of Laodicea, I thought we covered this a while back? In any event this still does not say what you need it to say. Saturday was viewed as a "feast day" and people laid around, drank, etc. There was no worship going on as Christian worship was held on Sunday (the mass)

Sunday did not become a "day of rest" similar to the Sabbath until around 790 or so. In Christianity, Sunday has always been the day of worship and gradually some of the elements of Jewish Sabbath rest were moved over into it. I believe this became official at the time of Charlemagne when he forbid any work to be done on Sunday and also the feast days ordained by the Church.

By the time of Charlemagne the Roman influence of changing the day from Saturday to Sunday was fully realized. You've probably read these before but here's some quotes that specify who really changed it.
[SIZE=+2]WHO CHANGED THE[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]SABBATH SATURDAY TO SUNDAY?[/SIZE]
Roman Catholic:No such law in the Bible "Nowhere in the bible do we find that Jesus or the apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is, the Seventh day of the week, Saturday. Today, all Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the [Roman] church outside the Bible." [SIZE=-1]Catholic Virginian, Oct. 3, 1947[/SIZE]
"You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctified." [SIZE=-1]James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (1917 ed.), pp.72,73[/SIZE]
"If protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath Day, that is Saturday. In keeping Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church." [SIZE=-1]Albert Smith, chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the cardinal in a letter of Feb. 10, 1920.[/SIZE]
"Have you not any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?"
"Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her, she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the Seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority" [SIZE=-1]Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism 3rd ed. p. 174[/SIZE]
How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holydays?
By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church." [SIZE=-1]Henry Tuberville, An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine (1833 approbation), p.58 (Same statement in Manual of Christian Doctrine, ed. by Daniel Ferris [1916 ed.], p.67)[/SIZE]
"The Catholic Church,... by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday.
[SIZE=-1]" The Catholic Mirror, official organ of Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893.[/SIZE]
"Is Saturday the 7th day according to the Bible and the 10 Commandments?"
"I answer yes".
"Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the 7th day, Saturday, for Sunday, the 1st day?"
"I answer yes".
"Did Christ change the day?"
[SIZE=-1]"I answer no!" Faithfully yours, "J. Cardinal Gibbons" Gibbons' autograph letter.[/SIZE]
Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the NEW LAW, that he himself has explicitly substituted Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as holy days. The church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days."
[SIZE=-1]John Laux A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies 1936, vol.1 p.51[/SIZE]
Which is the Sabbath day?
Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemity from Saturday to Sunday."
[SIZE=-1]Peter Geiermann, The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1946 ed.), p.50. Geiermann received the "apostolic blessing" of Pope Pius X on his labors, January 25, 1910.[/SIZE]
"The Catholic Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her Founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant, claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh Day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant. [SIZE=-1]The Catholic Universe Bulletin, Aug. 14, 1942, p.4[/SIZE]
"The observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] church." [SIZE=-1]Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today (1868), p. 213[/SIZE]
Exodus 20: 8-11,
(8) Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. (9) Six days shalt thou labor and do all thy work: (10) But the Seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: (11) For in six days the Lord made the heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the Seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Colossians 2:8 warns us to:
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
What power has claimed authority to change God's law?
The Papacy in Rome.
"The Pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret even Divine Laws...The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth.[SIZE=-1]" Translated from Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca (Ready Library), "Papa", art. 2.[/SIZE]
What part of the law of God has the papacy thought to change?
The Fourth Gommandment.
"Catholics alledge the change of the Sabbath into the Lord's day, contrary, as it seemeth, to the Decalogue; and they have no example more in their mouth than the change of the Sabbath. They will needs have to be very great, because it hath dispensed with a precept of the Decalogue.[SIZE=-1]" The Augsburg Confession (Lutheran), part 2, art. 7, in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Harper), vol. 3, p. 64.[/SIZE]
"It [the Roman Catholic Church] reversed the Fourth Commandment by doing away with the Sabbath of God's word and instituting Sunday as a holiday." [SIZE=-1]N. Summerbell, History of the Christian Church (1873), p. 415.[/SIZE]
Does the papacy acknowledge changing the Sabbath?
It does.
The Catechismus Romanus was commanded by the Council of Trent and published by the Vatican Press, by order of Pope Pius V, in 1566. This catechism for priests says: "It pleased the church of God, that the religious celebration of the Sabbath day should be transferred to 'the Lord's day. Sunday.'"[SIZE=-1] Catechism of the Council of Trent (Donovan's translation, 1867), part 3, chap. 4, p. 345. The same in slightly different wording, is in the McHugh and Callan translation (1937 ed.), p. 402.[/SIZE]
Do Catholic authorities acknowledge that there is no command in the bible for santification of Sunday?
They do.
"You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify." [SIZE=-1]James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (1917 ed.), pp. 72,73[/SIZE].
How did Sunday observance originate?
As a voluntary celebration of the Resurrection, a custom without pretense of Divine authority.
Matthew 28:1 KJV States clearly that Christ Rose on the Sabbath Saturday!! IN the END of the Sabbath, as it began to Dawn TOWARD the FIRST day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher. Mat 28:6 He is not here: for he is RISEN, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
Who first enjoined Sunday keeping by law?
Constantine the Great.
"The earliest recognition of the observance of Sunday as a legal duty is a constitution of Constantine in 321 A.D., enacting that all courts of justice, inhabitants of towns, and workshops were to be at rest on Sunday (venerabili die solis), with an exception in favor of those engaged in agricultural labor.[SIZE=-1]" Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th ed., art. "Sunday".[/SIZE]
By what church council was the observance of the seventh day forbidden and Sunday observance enjoined?
The Council of Laodicea, in Asia Minor, fourth century.
What kind of worship does the Saviour call that which is not according to God's commandments?
"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men." [SIZE=-1]Matt. 15:9[/SIZE]




Pythons said:
They were not "observing" the Sabbath RND. It's true that the majority of Christians in Asia Minor laying around or resting on Saturday however ANY historical source will tell you that those same Christians, without cease attended Mass every Sunday. Christians did not worship on Saturday RND, the Church had to force the issue that the Scriptures should be read on Saturday if Christians gathered together for a feast.

The Bible should be the rule of order for anyone serving God my friend. There is no such thing as unbiased history on this subject. You can find history supporting Sunday observance and I can find history supporting Sabbath observance. The bottom line is what does God say in His Holy word. What the early christians may or may not have done does not justify a complete rejection of the Holy Law of God spoken by His own voice from Sinai, and written by His own finger on stone.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
Upvote 0

honorthesabbath

Senior Veteran
Aug 10, 2005
4,065
78
75
Arkansas
✟19,680.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Socrates Scholasticus (5th-century historian), wrote in A.D. 439:
"Although almost all assemblies throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this."

Sozomen (5th-century historian), Ecclesiastical History, book 7, chap. 19:
"The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."

I want to thank PaleHorse for supplying me with these historical quotes!
 
Upvote 0

Pythons

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2008
4,215
226
✟5,503.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
In Acts 17:1-2, Acts 26:4-5, Acts 13:4-44, and Acts 18:4 we see Paul teaching/preaching in the synagogue on the Sabbath and the Gentiles requesting he teach them the next Sabbath . Wasn't Paul Christian? I find no account of Christians worshiping on the first day of the week in the Bible anywhere. If we are to be "Christian" we should follow Christ's example, He kept the Sabbath holy and it was His custom to do so according to Luke4:16.

Thos Scriptures certainly don't support what you are contending, let's look at them.

Acts 17 said:
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:

And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Is the purpose of a Synagogue to worship Christ as God? There is no Synagogue which allows the "worship of Christ". For a time the Jews tolerated "reasoning" that Jesus was the Christ but then,

Here is what happens when Christians are discovered to be Christians in a Synagogue,

John 12 said:
These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

yeah, they are thrown out of the Synagogue exactly as predicted in,

John 16 said:
THEY shall put you out OF the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service

One thing I've noticed is that SDA's have got very crafty in claiming certain texts mean something that they do not mean. While it is certainly true to say that someone who goes to a Synagogue can be reasoned into being a Christian it is FALSE to say that someone, once a Christian, will continue to "worship" at a Synagogue. Let's continue on with your other proofs.

Acts 26 said:
My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;

Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion "I lived a Pharisee".

This hardly helps your case. Paul is speaking to King Agrippa of the things he (Paul) was being accused of, BYTHE JEWS. What you need to be true for this Scripture to work is that A) Saul ( before he became Paul ) LIVED (as in past tense) AS A PHARISEE therefore B) Because a Pharisee is a zealot for the law a Pharisee would obviously keep the Sabbath.

Let's go with that notion and carry it to it's logical end. A Pharisee believes that the SOUL lives on after death.

Acts 23 said:
For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, NOR spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

And there arose a great cry: and the scribes that were of the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a SPIRIT or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God.

The Pharisees ALSO believed that two laws were binding on Jews, the writen Torah AND the Oral Torah ( religious Tradition ) If your agrument on the Sabbath rests on the fact that because Paul lived as a member of the straitest sect of the religion of Judaism and that would necessate Paul's observance of the Sabbath then by default you would also be forced to confess that the Pharisee belief of Oral Traditions as well as the spirit needing to be cleansed after death are equally valid belefs - not to mention everything else that the Pharisees believed. So Acts certainly invalidates your position and causes you to go backwards, in a huge way. Ok, lets look at Acts Chapter 13

Verse 5 said:
And when THEY were at Salamis, THEY preached the word of God IN THE synagogues OF THE JEWS: and THEY had also John to THEIR minister

One thing that JUMPS out at me here is that the "THEY" is not a PART of "THE JEWS". You have bent the clear meaning of the text to suggest that the men sent by the Holy Ghost via the Apostles "kept the Sabbath" because they went from town to town DEBATING with Jews in various Synagogues.

Verse 15 says that Paul went into a particular Synagogue, sat down and after the reading of "the law" told whoever would listen to him about Jesus. The end result of a few "Sabbath's" in "reasoning" with the people resulted with Paul and Barnabus being expelled from the coast because, as Scripture so boldy states,

Scripture said:
And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:


But their minds were blinded: for until this day REMAINETH the same vail UNTAKEN AWAY IN THE READING of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
But even unto THIS DAY, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

They, the Jews, do not read the New Covenant in Synagogues any more then a zealot street preacher who is also in AA does not support the liquor store he stands in front of in hopes of reasoning with the people who are going into and out of the liquor store. That leaves us with Acts 18.

Acts 18 said:
And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Persuaded them to do what? Continue to keep attending Synagogue services only dedicate the service to Jesus! Christians assembled to worship Jesus, as God, on Sunday. You may call what they did "Sheep stealing".

Acts 20 said:
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight

It was the first day of the week ( Sunday ) that the disciples came together to "break bread". These were CHRISTIANS who had assembled in a house to hear Paul PREACH,

Verse 9 said:
And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was LONG PREACHING, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.

Paul was preaching to CHRISTIANS who had already accepted the Christian Faith and had assembled to hear Paul "preach" and anyone who has ever attended a Catholic Mass knows that the breaking of Bread is the LAST PART OF THE Christian Mass ( AKA Christian ASSEMBLY ). Do you seriously think a Christian now or at the time of Paul could conduct a Mass, complete with the Lord's Supper in a Synagogue!!! Think about what would happen if you attempted to pull that kind of stunt!

1st Cor 10 said:
I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ?

The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

Here is an example,

1 Cor 1 said:
For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.


For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

The Christians were coming together as a Church but where not observing the Lord's Supper AS THEY SHOULD. Paul reviews the proper way to hold Holy Communion and tells them to WAIT one for another so that they don't eat and drink damnation onto themselves,

Verse 28 said:
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.


For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.


Jimlamore said:
By the time of Charlemagne the Roman influence of changing the day from Saturday to Sunday was fully realized. You've probably read these before but here's some quotes that specify who really changed it.

Sunday is it's "own day" Jim, it's specific to Christianity. Sunday is the day the early Church met to hold Mass and as time passed the Church took some of the aspects of the Sabbath and moved them to Sunday.



Jimlamore said:
The Bible should be the rule of order for anyone serving God my friend. There is no such thing as unbiased history on this subject. You can find history supporting Sunday observance and I can find history supporting Sabbath observance.

The ONLY history you can produce shows that the Christians who were resting on Saturday DID NOT WORSHIP on Saturday because the same history shows that they attended Mass ever Sunday.


Jimlamore said:
The bottom line is what does God say in His Holy word. What the early christians may or may not have done does not justify a complete rejection of the Holy Law of God spoken by His own voice from Sinai, and written by His own finger on stone.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

When Jesus said, "Keep my Commandments" He wasn't speaking of "The Law" of Moses or the 10 Commandments. It's everything Christ, through the Holy Ghost COMMANDED the Apostles to command.

Acts 1 said:
The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen

God Bless you as well Brother.
 
Upvote 0

PaleHorse

Veteran
Jun 1, 2005
1,405
32
55
Arkansas
Visit site
✟16,859.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Socrates Scholasticus (5th-century historian), wrote in A.D. 439:
"Although almost all assemblies throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this."

"Ceased"? Hmmm... one can only 'cease' from something if they were previously doing it.

Sozomen (5th-century historian), Ecclesiastical History, book 7, chap. 19:
"The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."

Seems like the first quote helps explain the second.
 
Upvote 0

Pythons

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2008
4,215
226
✟5,503.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Socrates Scholasticus (5th-century historian), wrote in A.D. 439:
"Although almost all assemblies throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this."

Sozomen (5th-century historian), Ecclesiastical History, book 7, chap. 19:
"The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."

I want to thank PaleHorse for supplying me with these historical quotes!


You do realize that Socrates Scholasticus, affirms, within the same body of text that ALL Christians, throughout the world held Christian Mass EVERY Sunday and that All the Eastern Church came together to celebrate the Sabbath over the mystery of the Creation,

but do not participate of the mysteries in the manner usual among Christians in general[/b]: for after having eaten and satisfied themselves with food of all kinds, in the evening making their offerings [790] they partake of the mysteries.


Sozeman says the identical thing. I.E. that Christians the world over gathered on SUNDAY whereas the Western Church did not also gather on Saturday. Hmmm, I wonder what that means? I've never understood why SDA's quote these statements when all it proves is that even the Christians who gathered together on a Sabbath held their MASS on Sunday. Does that not strike you as odd?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

PaleHorse

Veteran
Jun 1, 2005
1,405
32
55
Arkansas
Visit site
✟16,859.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
You do realize that Socrates Scholasticus, affirms, within the same body of text that ALL Christians, throughout the world held Christian Mass EVERY Sunday and that All the Eastern Church came together to celebrate the Sabbath over the mystery of the Creation,
Sozeman says the identical thing. I.E. that Christians the world over gathered on SUNDAY whereas the Western Church did not also gather on Saturday. Hmmm, I wonder what that means? I've never understood why SDA's quote these statements when all it proves is that even the Christians who gathered together on a Sabbath held their MASS on Sunday. Does that not strike you as odd?

Umm... I think you may have trouble looking through preconceived notions. Either both of the above-quoted historians contradicted themselves or you aren't reading what they are actually saying.

But I must admit that I do find it somewhat humorous that you happily disregard the many historical quotes provided to you from your own church that contradicts your claims of the apostles celebrating the Sun-day instead of the Sabbath.
 
Upvote 0

RND

Senior Veteran
Jul 20, 2006
7,807
145
Victorville, California, CorpUSA
Visit site
✟23,772.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
You do realize that Socrates Scholasticus, affirms, within the same body of text that ALL Christians, throughout the world held Christian Mass EVERY Sunday and that All the Eastern Church came together to celebrate the Sabbath over the mystery of the Creation

So? That doesn't prove anything other than people were corrupted in ignoring God's commandments. Let me illustrate.

"Although almost all assemblies throughout the world commit adultery every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this."

See the point? As I have said before, if no one, not one person had ever kept the sabbath feverishly for the first few hundreds of years after the death of Christ would mean that there wasn't a sabbath commandment to observe and keep or just simple proof that the commandment was being ignored?


Sozeman says the identical thing. I.E. that Christians the world over gathered on SUNDAY whereas the Western Church did not also gather on Saturday.

Does that proof the sabbath was done away with or ignored?

Hmmm, I wonder what that means? I've never understood why SDA's quote these statements when all it proves is that even the Christians who gathered together on a Sabbath held their MASS on Sunday. Does that not strike you as odd?

Not me. Just proofs that there was deception early on to destroy the sabbath. Satan has to counterfeit everything of God and the only way he could counterfeit the sabbath was to make up his own, called Sunday.

wafer%20and%20pope%20jpII.jpg


Sun worship run amok.
 
Upvote 0

PaleHorse

Veteran
Jun 1, 2005
1,405
32
55
Arkansas
Visit site
✟16,859.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
>all it proves is that even the Christians who gathered together on a Sabbath held their MASS on Sunday.

The quote doesn't say Mass--that is being read into the text.
I fully agree! Thank you, DJConklin. :thumbsup:

Presuming that text is referring to the mass is simply bad hermeneutics.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Pythons

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2008
4,215
226
✟5,503.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Umm... I think you may have trouble looking through preconceived notions. Either both of the above-quoted historians contradicted themselves or you aren't reading what they are actually saying.

But I must admit that I do find it somewhat humorous that you happily disregard the many historical quotes provided to you from your own church that contradicts your claims of the apostles celebrating the Sun-day instead of the Sabbath.


I'm reading that Sozeman states that EVERYONE who gathered on Saturday ALSO gathered on Sunday, while the Western portion of the Church ( Rome and Alexandria's ) Tradition was to meet ONLY on Sunday.

That's what, "assemble together on the Sabbath AS WELL AS on the the first day of the week" means. Describe exactly what that means to you?

You want a modern day example of what both Sozeman and Socrates are telling you? Look into the Eithopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church. Those folks gather on Sabbath every week and hold their High Mass every Sunday, exactly as they did from the inception of their Church. They don't eat foods declaired unclean by the Law of Moses, etc, etc, etc.

VIRGIN MARY ETHIOPIAN ORTHODOX TEWAHEDO CHURCH IN LOS ANGELES


RND said:
So? That doesn't prove anything other than people were corrupted in ignoring God's commandments. Let me illustrate.

It proves that all Christians outside of Rome as well as in Rome went to Church on Sunday EVERY WEEK in addition to proving that the Christians outside of direct Western Influence also gathered on Sabbath, however not for the Main Mass. It certainly proves that.


RND said:
See the point? As I have said before, if no one, not one person had ever kept the sabbath feverishly for the first few hundreds of years after the death of Christ would mean that there wasn't a sabbath commandment to observe and keep or just simple proof that the commandment was being ignored?

It's not a point because the eastern side of the Church never "KEPT" the Sabbath within your understanding of keeping it. Nice try with "adultery" however. "Keeping the Sabbath" requires more then gathering together on Saturday. It was certainly ignored by the Apostles in that case.

RND said:
Not me. Just proofs that there was deception early on to destroy the sabbath. Satan has to counterfeit everything of God and the only way he could counterfeit the sabbath was to make up his own, called Sunday.

If that's the case the Apostles were "used" by Satan to do it.



Djconklin said:
The quote doesn't say Mass--that is being read into the text.

True, the text does not use the term Mass however that is exactly what is being discussed. As for the understanding of Socrates on issues related to this discussion I will post a section from the same body of text that was quoted by Palehorse.


Same body of text said:
Now that many differences existed even in the apostolic age of the church occasioned by such subjects, was not unknown even to the apostles themselves, as the book of The Acts testifies. For when they understood that a disturbance occurred among believers on account of a dissension of the Gentiles, having all met together, they promulgated a Divine law, giving it the form of a letter. By this sanction they liberated Christians from the bondage of formal observances, and all vain contention about these things; and they taught them the path of true piety, prescribing such things only as were conducive to its attainment.

The epistle itself, which I shall here transcribe, is recorded in The Acts of the Apostles. [800]

`The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia. Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law; to whom we gave no such commandment: it seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you, with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same thing by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication; from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.'


These things indeed pleased God: for the letter expressly says,

`It seemed good to the Holy Ghost to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things.'

There are nevertheless some persons who, disregarding these precepts, suppose all fornication to be an indifferent matter; but contend about holy-days as if their lives were at stake, thus contravening the commands of God, and legislating for themselves, and making of none effect the decree of the apostles: neither do they perceive that they are themselves practicing the contrary to those things which God approved.

It is possible easily to extend our discourse respecting Easter, and demonstrate that the Jews observe no exact rule either in the time or manner of celebrating the paschal solemnity: and that the Samaritans, who are an offshoot from the Jews, always celebrate this festival after the equinox. But this subject would require a distinct and copious treatise: I shall therefore merely add, that those who affect so much to imitate the Jews, and are so very anxious about an accurate observance of types, ought to depart from them in no particular.

For if they have chosen to be so correct, they must not only observe days and months, but all other things also, which Christ (who was `made under the law') [801] did in the manner of the Jews; or which he unjustly suffered from them; or wrought typically for the good of all men. He entered into a ship and taught. He ordered the Passover to be made ready in an upper room. He commanded an ass that was tied to be loosed. He proposed a man bearing a pitcher of water as a sign to them for hastening their preparations for the Passover. [He did] an infinite number of other things of this nature which are recorded in the gospels. And yet those who suppose themselves to be justified by keeping this feast, would think it absurd to observe any of these things in a bodily manner. For no doctor ever dreams of going to preach from a ship--no person imagines it necessary to go up into an upper room to celebrate the Passover there--they never tie, and then loose an ass again--and finally no one enjoins another to carry a pitcher of water, in order that the symbols might be fulfilled.

They have justly regarded such things as savoring rather of Judaism: for the Jews are more solicitous about outward solemnities than the obedience of the heart; and therefore are they under the curse, because they do not discern the spiritual bearing of the Mosaic law, but rest in its types and shadows.

Those who favor the Jews admit the allegorical meaning of these things; and yet they wage a deadly warfare against the observance of days and months, without applying to them a similar sense: thus do they necessarily involve themselves in a common condemnation with the Jews. But enough I think has been said concerning these things

That sort of sums up what Socrates thought about things.
 
Upvote 0