Sunday Law

[ttreg]

So when do you think itll happen? And how do you think it would come about? By that i mean like what will cause it to become law?

 

[Sunrunner]

I voted 50-100 years, though no one can be sure.

I try not to dwell on the Sunday Law too much. I feel that it is not in the best interest of Adventism to try to define it. I believe we should just be alert, be vigilant, and be aware that there will be a Great Test near the close of time.

 

[OntheDL]

'The days in which we live are solemn and important. The Spirit of God is gradually but surely being withdrawn from the earth. Plagues and judgments are already falling upon the despisers of the grace of God. The calamities by land and sea, the unsettled state of society, the alarms of war, are portentous. They forecast approaching events of the greatest magnitude. The agencies of evil are combining their forces, and consolidating. They are strengthening for the last great crisis. Great changes are soon to take place in our world, and the final movements will be rapid ones.' ---Testimonies, vol. 9, p. 11

The point is not to guess when it is going to come. The point is to be ready NOW to meet Jesus.

However there are possible events marked for 2008...

-The national ID card is planned to roll out in 2008.
-The Catholic and evangelical are planning to put the 10 commandments to legislature by 2008.
-Also, I've a few medical professionals expect the avian flue(bird flu) completes its mutation to infect humans by 2008.

 

[markbelieves]

I didn't vote because I was not sure if you were looking for SDA votes only but I would have to say a very, very long time. You can see, at least in the US that the trend is just the opposite. I can remember when very few businesses were open on Sundays but now that has changed. Stores and restaurants are open, kids baseball and soccer games are played, pretty much like any other day.

Also, when I still was going to a RC church, I had noticed that when the church starting adding Saturday services these were by far the most attended services of the week. More than half of the congregation attended the two services offered on Saturday, with the remaining attending the five (now four) Sunday services. They eliminated one of the Sunday services since it was so lightly attended.

So I agree with the comment that it is best not to worry about. The more you think about that, the less time you have to think about the saving Grace of God offered through his Son Jesus Christ.

Peace,
Mark

 

[Telaquapacky]

It is already hard to make it in the business world if you are a Sabbathkeeper. Saturday is the biggest business day in practically every merchandising business. Many service businesses and manufacturing need staffing 24-7, and any worker who has "special needs," that are non-conformist, such as Sabbathkeeping, are regarded as troublemakers and misfits. There is a lot of resentment and resistance to accommodation out there against Sabbathkeepers in the workplace, which is invisible to Christians who are in the comfortable Sunday-keeping majority.

The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that Sunday Laws are not religious laws prohibited by the first ammendment, but secular laws of general applicability.

I heard a radio evangelist praise Sunday laws. I wrote him a polite and thoughtful letter, describing my own experience as a Sabbath-keeper and asked if it was appropriate, in a country that claims to honor the Ten Commandments, for someone to suffer and be excluded and marginalized, and potentially jailed under a Sunday law, for keeping of the Ten Commandments. The evangelist did not answer my letter, and continued in his former pro-Sunday law position.

I would say definitely within twenty years. Probably less than ten. People have no idea how easy it would be to make a Sunday law, especially if there are some negative events, like terror attacks, natural disasters and epidemics, that make people susceptible to the idea that God is judging America, and we need to clean up our act. What other legislation would be do-able? Prohibition of alcoholic beverages? We know how far that got. Gun Control? Come on! Anti-abortion? Anyone who has worked in a hospital knows that if the rich want an abortion, a doctor can always be found who will perform it and chart something else. Sunday legislation is the most popularly acceptable and do-able religious legislation there is, because it inconveniences no one but those few, "kooky," non-conformist Sabbath-keepers. And who cares about them? I know first hand. NO one.

 

[markbelieves]

It is already hard to make it in the business world if you are a Sabbathkeeper. Saturday is the biggest business day in practically every merchandising business. Many service businesses and manufacturing need staffing 24-7, and any worker who has "special needs," that are non-conformist, such as Sabbathkeeping, are regarded as troublemakers and misfits. There is a lot of resentment and resistance to accommodation out there against Sabbathkeepers in the workplace, which is invisible to Christians who are in the comfortable Sunday-keeping majority.

The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that Sunday Laws are not religious laws prohibited by the first ammendment, but secular laws of general applicability.

I heard a radio evangelist praise Sunday laws. I wrote him a polite and thoughtful letter, describing my own experience as a Sabbath-keeper and asked if it was appropriate, in a country that claims to honor the Ten Commandments, for someone to suffer and be excluded and marginalized, and potentially jailed under a Sunday law, for keeping of the Ten Commandments. The evangelist did not answer my letter, and continued in his former pro-Sunday law position.

I would say definitely within twenty years. Probably less than ten. People have no idea how easy it would be to make a Sunday law, especially if there are some negative events, like terror attacks, natural disasters and epidemics, that make people susceptible to the idea that God is judging America, and we need to clean up our act. What other legislation would be do-able? Prohibition of alcoholic beverages? We know how far that got. Gun Control? Come on! Anti-abortion? Anyone who has worked in a hospital knows that if the rich want an abortion, a doctor can always be found who will perform it and chart something else. Sunday legislation is the most popularly acceptable and do-able religious legislation there is, because it inconveniences no one but those few, "kooky," non-conformist Sabbath-keepers. And who cares about them? I know first hand. NO one.

Yet all the trends disagree. You mention that it next to impossible to maintain a business without being open during the Sabbath but the rather large Jewish neighborhoods around me manage to do this just fine. Go there on a Saturday and everything is closed. They do a pretty good business on Sunday's though. The companies I work for give both Saturday and Sunday off but they won't hesitate to ask you to work both days if the feel it is needed.
Look around you, your 51, you have been around for many years now. You can not deny that there are many more things happening on a Sunday today than there were when you were young.
There is absolutely nothing going on today that would even come close to indicating that more Sunday laws are on the way. They are actually going away, such as the ones that prevented the sale of alcohol.
I would stoip worrying about the non-existant and instead keep your focus on the very real Jesus Christ.

Peace,
Mark

 

[Telaquapacky]

Yet all the trends disagree. You mention that it next to impossible to maintain a business without being open during the Sabbath but the rather large Jewish neighborhoods around me manage to do this just fine. Go there on a Saturday and everything is closed. They do a pretty good business on Sunday's though. The companies I work for give both Saturday and Sunday off but they won't hesitate to ask you to work both days if the feel it is needed.
Look around you, your 51, you have been around for many years now. You can not deny that there are many more things happening on a Sunday today than there were when you were young.
There is absolutely nothing going on today that would even come close to indicating that more Sunday laws are on the way. They are actually going away, such as the ones that prevented the sale of alcohol.
I would stoip worrying about the non-existant and instead keep your focus on the very real Jesus Christ.

Peace,
Mark

Mark,
This subject is difficult to talk about because you probably have never been fired or had to give up a job because of Sunday, and none of us who has lost something we wanted because of Sabbath feels bitter about it, because we do this thing as an expression of our love for Jesus and His exortation of us to obey His commandments out of love- but you can't walk a mile in my shoes without me telling you how it feels, and it's hard to tell the whole story without sounding bitter. I'm really not bitter, but these are the realities.

Not all trends go away from a Sunday Law. If you have been watching the Supreme Court, it has morphed from a body that once protected individual liberties to one more ideologically prone to protect the majority and large and powerful institutions instead. Former Justice, Sandra Day O'Connor once said, when asked about the present state of religious liberty in America, said, "It's hanging by a thread."

When I was a kid, the mainstream Christian world used to respect the separation of Church and State- now the concept is hated as much as Communism was then.

The trend toward more business being open on Sunday is only because the mainstream Christian world doesn't see the need to take one 24-hour period a week away from work to devote to fellowship with other believers and closeness to God. There was a time when most Christians kept Sunday as we keep the Sabbath. They did not leave church and go to restaurants or sporting events. This Sunday business trend is only one more evidence of the erosion of any care for a day of rest, as specified in the fourth commandment.

The fact that Sabbath keepers do business on Sunday reflects the economic reality that some who don't work on Sabbath have to make it up somehow. I do fine not having to be open on Sunday, but if I did not have Sunday to do gardening, home chores, and occasional administrative work duties or office maintenance tasks, I would have to take another day during the week for them, and that could be a problem.

I don't believe that the Sunday law will be one that requires worship on Sunday. I believe that there will be legislation only that precludes work on Sunday. This will make it impossible for shift workers who are Sabbath-keepers to trade their Sabbath work with Sunday-keepers. It will prevent me, for example, from getting adequate Continuing Education to maintain my license. Without my license, I can't practice. If I can't practice, how will I pay back the bank the mortgage I owe from buying my practice (which I had to buy because I could no longer work for others, because I am a Sabbath-keeper)?

Mark, you can afford to be more casual about it, and not likely to see things the same way, because the observance of a weekly day of rest with God has probably not cost you much.

 

[markbelieves]

Mark,
This subject is difficult to talk about because you probably have never been fired or had to give up a job because of Sunday, and none of us who has lost something we wanted because of Sabbath feels bitter about it, because we do this thing as an expression of our love for Jesus and His exortation of us to obey His commandments out of love- but you can't walk a mile in my shoes without me telling you how it feels, and it's hard to tell the whole story without sounding bitter. I'm really not bitter, but these are the realities.

Not all trends go away from a Sunday Law. If you have been watching the Supreme Court, it has morphed from a body that once protected individual liberties to one more ideologically prone to protect the majority and large and powerful institutions instead. Former Justice, Sandra Day O'Connor once said, when asked about the present state of religious liberty in America, said, "It's hanging by a thread."

When I was a kid, the mainstream Christian world used to respect the separation of Church and State- now the concept is hated as much as Communism was then.

The trend toward more business being open on Sunday is only because the mainstream Christian world doesn't see the need to take one 24-hour period a week away from work to devote to fellowship with other believers and closeness to God. There was a time when most Christians kept Sunday as we keep the Sabbath. They did not leave church and go to restaurants or sporting events. This Sunday business trend is only one more evidence of the erosion of any care for a day of rest, as specified in the fourth commandment.

The fact that Sabbath keepers do business on Sunday reflects the economic reality that some who don't work on Sabbath have to make it up somehow. I do fine not having to be open on Sunday, but if I did not have Sunday to do gardening, home chores, and occasional administrative work duties or office maintenance tasks, I would have to take another day during the week for them, and that could be a problem.

I don't believe that the Sunday law will be one that requires worship on Sunday. I believe that there will be legislation only that precludes work on Sunday. This will make it impossible for shift workers who are Sabbath-keepers to trade their Sabbath work with Sunday-keepers. It will prevent me, for example, from getting adequate Continuing Education to maintain my license. Without my license, I can't practice. If I can't practice, how will I pay back the bank the mortgage I owe from buying my practice (which I had to buy because I could no longer work for others, because I am a Sabbath-keeper)?

Mark, you can afford to be more casual about it, and not likely to see things the same way, because the observance of a weekly day of rest with God has probably not cost you much.

You state that you expect legislation to be enacted that will disallow work on Sundays. I said, and still stick with, that there is nothing that indicates this is even close to happening. The current court and legislation may speak the religious card but it never surpasses the desire of business. Most businesses would fight vehemently against any legislation that required they be closed on Sunday. The only trend I see is more places of business open on Sunday.

You are right, I have not walked in your shoes, but I do know people that have left jobs or were let go because they refused to work on Sunday. Fortunately, this has not happened to me. I work for a place that does respect that and they also respect that the SDA fellow I work with will be home before dark on Friday and not in on Saturday. If he has extra work, he'll be in on Sunday. These same conditions applied to any Jewish individuals here.

I know I will not convince you otherwise but I sincerely doubt that you will ever be prohibited from working on a Sunday in your lifetime.

Peace,
Mark

 

[Sophia7]

This is a reminder that only Seventh-day Adventists are allowed to debate or teach in this congregational forum, according to Rule 1.4:

1.4 Congregational Areas

You may post in any of the Congregational Forums if you agree with the contents of the Nicene Creed and the Trinitarian nature of God, but you may not argue or debate with members of particular denominations and groups in their congregational areas unless you are a member of that particular denomination or group.

Others may post only fellowship or questions.

 

[Jon0388g]

On the one hand ever since I was a kid (not that long ago, granted lol), the Adventist church makes it seem like the Sunday Law and Christ's return is coming next week/next month/ etc - well this can be said everyday and every year for how long!

But on the other hand, things are starting to happen in this world that all seem a bit 'iffy.' 9/11 was quite clearly a turning point, and this terrorism business does not seem to be calming down. The fact that there is now an act going by the Catholic Church authorities which is trying to 'unite' all churches, and emphasising we forget our differences and join under our common beliefs, again seems a bit 'iffy'. (I can't remember the exact name of this new thing thats happening, anyone heard of it?) The text 'Come out of her' comes to mind, just as unification is being so emphasised nowadays....

Whether or not it begins tomorrow, next week, or in 100 years, we need to be ready. It will come 'like a thief in the night,' but we must be ready.

I've always thought that nobody should really moan about waiting so long for Christ's return - we all live for an average of 70 years, so, doesn't that equate to you will see Christ in less than 100 years, anyway??!

 

[markbelieves]

Sorry...I was not trying to debate any theological points. I close just by saying that as one who chooses to enjoy his Sabbath rest in Jesus I sincerely pray that there would never be a Sunday law.

Peace,

Your brother in Christ - Mark

 

[Sophia7]

I've always thought that nobody should really moan about waiting so long for Christ's return - we all live for an average of 70 years, so, doesn't that equate to you will see Christ in less than 100 years, anyway??!

Good point. We never know how long we will have to live. The end could come for any of us at any moment and certainly, for most of us, in less than 100 years. We should focus on our relationship with Christ and telling others about Him first and foremost and not so much on if or how or when Sunday laws could possibly come about.

 

[Dasdream]

Like I said before, the law may not be official but it has already begun going through the motions. I am 22 and can't find a job, because I won't work on my Sabbath, heck make the law already, I have been dealing with this for 5 years now and I have not turned my back on the Sabbath for anybody or anything and that is the time of mentality we need. So I say make the Law, because I will be right there to help you all through it!

 

[StormyOne]

ummmmm Never, that would be my vote..... and we have yet to address that we the sda church operate businesses that require employees to work on Sabbath......

 

[Sophia7]

ummmmm Never, that would be my vote..... and we have yet to address that we the sda church operate businesses that require employees to work on Sabbath......

Some of those mandate work out of necessity--Adventist hospitals, for instance, which can't leave their patients to die just because it's Sabbath. If you are referring to cafeterias and things like that, then I agree that we are a bit inconsistent. I've been to some Adventist institutions where cafeterias are open just like usual on Sabbath and others where they provide extra food to carry out at supper on Friday and then are closed on Sabbath. I guess people have different ideas about whether those kinds of jobs are essential to do on Sabbath.

Of course, my husband as a pastor is required to work on Sabbath, but I don't really see a problem with ministering to others on Sabbath since Jesus did it Himself.

 

[Sunrunner]

"Wherefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath days." Matthew 12:12.

 

[StormyOne]

doctors and nurses, housekeeping staff to keep the hospital clean, support clerical staff because records have to be maintained.... my point is how can we recommend people quitting their jobs when some of our own institutions have employees who have to work?

 

[Sunrunner]

Is it more Christlike for us to allow people to die and get sick than to maintain houses of healing on the Sabbath? We have a duty to keep the Sabbath holy, but we also have a duty to heal and help people.

 

[StormyOne]

Is it more Christlike for us to allow people to die and get sick than to maintain houses of healing on the Sabbath? We have a duty to keep the Sabbath holy, but we also have a duty to heal and help people.

I am not advocating the death of anyone.... what I am suggesting is that we not be so quick to tell people that they need to quit their jobs if those jobs require them to work on the sabbath...

 

[Sunrunner]

It depends on what that job is..