Suicide

[Cute Tink]

Only for those left behind. The person who is gone no longer suffers any pain, which was the point.

 

[hankroberts]

In life, pain is inevitable. Misery (suffering) is optional.

 

[Cute Tink]

I would guess that would depend on how much pain an individual ends up in. To a certain extent, suffering can be ignored, but how much pain (physical or otherwise) does one have to tolerate before it becomes too much to bear?

 

[hankroberts]

No. Pain is a physiological condition, and is both transient and limited.
Misery is a choice. If you are in misery it is because you chose to do that (although many people do not know there are other choices).

 

[Cute Tink]

So a person who has terminal cancer and experiencing constant physical pain from it is experiencing transient and limited pain? Or is it limited because after the cancer kills that person, the pain is over?

And such a person is choosing to be miserable?

 

[hankroberts]

"So a person who has terminal cancer and experiencing constant physical pain from it is experiencing transient and limited pain?"

Well, medically there is Acute and Chronic pain. But all pain is limited, medically in its extent and virtually all pain is transient in that it comes and goes. I've actually seen a couple of cases where the pain experience was extreme (8 or 9 on a 10 point scale) continually, so severe morphine did not relieve it. However, such cases are medically extraordinary.

"And such a person is choosing to be miserable?"

That would depend on the person, which was my point. I've seen patients who were exuberant and full of joy, who would tell you that their pain was excruciating. I've seen Marines (and other military) so severely damaged that they eventually died, but were not willing to give up and succumb to the pain. Psychologically, we know that Suffering (misery) is a choice: the Orientals have known this for centuries; modern medicine and psychology have only caught up within the last 50-75 years.

 

[Cute Tink]

That being your position, how, then, is it a problem that suicide "creates more pain and suffering than it alleviates", since the first is transient and limited and the second is a choice?

 

[hankroberts]

Suicide creates more pain and suffering in that while it allows the suicide to escape their discomfort, it brings grief to those who love them and does absolutely nothing to resolve the real problem (whatever that problem was). The vast majority of suicides and attempts are due to poor coping skills, not to the severity of the actual issue.

As stated, it is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

 

[keith99]

"So a person who has terminal cancer and experiencing constant physical pain from it is experiencing transient and limited pain?"

Well, medically there is Acute and Chronic pain. But all pain is limited, medically in its extent and virtually all pain is transient in that it comes and goes. I've actually seen a couple of cases where the pain experience was extreme (8 or 9 on a 10 point scale) continually, so severe morphine did not relieve it. However, such cases are medically extraordinary.

"And such a person is choosing to be miserable?"

That would depend on the person, which was my point. I've seen patients who were exuberant and full of joy, who would tell you that their pain was excruciating. I've seen Marines (and other military) so severely damaged that they eventually died, but were not willing to give up and succumb to the pain. Psychologically, we know that Suffering (misery) is a choice: the Orientals have known this for centuries; modern medicine and psychology have only caught up within the last 50-75 years.

No suffering is sometimes unavoidable. I'm saying that as someone who ignored a separated shoulder and simply failed to notice a broken finger (I only know I was not broken when I laced on my boots and was swollen to twice the size of the one next to it an hour and a half later when I took them off. Did not hurt even then or ever).

Adrenal response eventually wears off, some pain can be debilitating. I've twice been in a situation where 'It only hurts when I breath' was very literal. Misery can be a choice and almost always there is something the individual can do at the margin to increase or decrease it. But far too often misery is not a choice.

 

[Cute Tink]

Suicide creates more pain and suffering in that while it allows the suicide to escape their discomfort, it brings grief to those who love them and does absolutely nothing to resolve the real problem (whatever that problem was).

Whether the problem is truly resolved is kind of a moot point. If the problem was an internal issue, it is resolved. If it is the result of an external problem, then no it isn't "resolved" in that sense, but it is no longer a problem.

The vast majority of suicides and attempts are due to poor coping skills, not to the severity of the actual issue.

I guess that depends on perspective. While many cases could be argued, "severity" is a rather subjective arguing point to begin with, since it is often not strictly measurable.

As to whether it is poor coping skills, I would argue that depends on what sort of problem we are talking about to begin with. In some cases I would agree.

As stated, it is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Acknowledged.

 

[Messy]

No. Pain is a physiological condition, and is both transient and limited.
Misery is a choice. If you are in misery it is because you chose to do that (although many people do not know there are other choices).

Misery is a choice? Tell that to the Gadarene man.

 

[hankroberts]

Hello, Messy: I don't believe we've conversed before.
"Misery is a choice? Tell that to the Gadarene man. "

Misery is an emotional response to circumstances. I presume you have some reason for thinking the Gadarene Demoniac was not capable of making a decision about how he would react to his circumstances? Certainly all the rest of us do. Why do you think his estate was different?

 

[Messy]

Hello, Messy: I don't believe we've conversed before.
"Misery is a choice? Tell that to the Gadarene man. "

Misery is an emotional response to circumstances. I presume you have some reason for thinking the Gadarene Demoniac was not capable of making a decision about how he would react to his circumstances? Certainly all the rest of us do. Why do you think his estate was different?

He was posessed, he had no choice in what to do. Jesus didn't ask him if he wanted to be healed, others He would ask. This man couldn't even answer himself.

 

[hankroberts]

"He was posessed, he had no choice in what to do."

You are confusing his having a choice regarding his estate, his condition, with having a choice about how he responded to that condition. Not to mention that you are invoking a rather extreme situation, a logical error.

 

[Audacious]

Suicide is usually the result of mental illness; over 90% of people that have committed suicide have been previously diagnosed with a mental health condition. The reason for this is rather obvious: it's a psychological reaction to mental illness, and not a rational choice (except, I would posit, in cases where someone is terminally ill to begin with and have a rapidly progressing, awful disease such as Huntington's Chorea.).

People that commit suicide usually don't do it because of some reason that seems rational to us, like in movies or something; they do it because their mental illness either makes them see the world in an incredibly warped and hopeless fashion (and then convinces you that the best option to break the cycle of hopelessness is to kill yourself), or it gives them an overpowering compulsion to kill themselves.

I've experienced both things, myself, and you really can't get out of that kind of situation through pure willpower, or even rational thought, because when you have an illness of the mind, both of these things become compromised. Every psychiatrist, psychologist and therapist I've spoken about this to -- and I've spoken to 11 people on the subject, 4 of them with PhDs and 7 of them with masters degrees -- has agreed with my assessment.

The only real, lasting solution to the problem of suicide is mental health care. God can help you be healthier, but he isn't usually going to magically cure your disease; Jesus cannot be the sole answer to such a problem, because if he was, people of faith would never commit suicide (which, they do.). Telling people that what they need is more Jesus, when what they really need is a doctor, is not going to help them. (I've had lots of people do this with me, and all of these people are fools offering harmful advice.).

It's part of this whole idea that somehow, you're mentally ill because you're a sinner, when in reality, you're mentally ill because you're a person who happens to have an illness -- you don't get depression, or a personality disorder, or any other major mental illness, by being a bad person or for lacking God, any more than you get cancer by being a bad person or lacking God, and when society starts to not just say that, but believes it, and gets more people access to the health care that they need, we'll see an actual, solid solution to the problem of suicide in day to day life.

 

[Received]

All these are interesting ideas, but here are pretty much the facts on the matter according to research by leading suicide psychologist Thomas Joiner.

People are most prone to attempting suicide of they have a sense of alienation (no connection with others, feeling alone, etc.), perceived burdensomeness (where they think they're a burden to others, whether physically or psychologically), and habituation to pain. Add alcohol to the mix and that only drops inhibitions. This still doesn't fully answer the "why", and the answer at its heart is very easy: you're feeling alone, hopeless, maybe a burden, and you're dealing with a sense of pain that you don't think (here's the hopeless part) will leave. Suicide becomes an option to eliminate the pain. i can't think of a single person I've counseled or heard about who has done it for any other reason. The "cry for help" is overrated but it does happen, but no person would cry for help in this way unless they were experiencing chronic pain they were habituated to, alienation, and/or perceived burdensomeness. The latter factor is why the elderly are the most at-risk for suicide of all age groups.

 

[madera23]

I remember Camus said, and I think this ties into your argument between sensical and non-sensical implications of suicide, that suicide was an action so absurd that it overrides all tails of existence with just one action, something we try to do throughout our lives and fail with everything we do. But suicide, in all its absurdity, is so absurd and so ridiculous an action that it contradicts everything that is ridiculous and absurd about the individual's life(their sadness, despair, angst, etc...) with something that can rid it all away or end it from the now.

I hope that makes sense, and I'm sure I'll be chewed out for that, but that's one of the conditions I find applicabe.

Recieved puts up a very good argument.

People who commit suicide are unable to deal with severe emotional or physical
anguish.
it is easy to say it is rediculous when not experiencing the same.
Robin WIlliams was a good example. He was not able
to bear the pain he was going, he was not in his right mind.
Very sad.

 

[Blue Wren]

Sweden, my country used to have a very high suicide rate. Scientists believe that our location, being so far north, with such cold and dark winters, contributed to it. I believe, this is true. In the past 20 years, our suicide rate has dropped, considerably. Part of this is due to recognising the symptoms of depression, and not having judgement towards people with it. Helping them, in an effective way. We have free care available, no judgement. We have SAD lamps, that help with the darkness. We have good exercise programmes, which can help. I think, depression, it can just seep into a person. It can be, a very serious, disease of the mind, yes. But it is not always treated as one. It's treated as being something, you can just make your mind up about, shake off. That is often not the case, with people so depressed, they take their life.

 

[Cute Tink]

Sweden, my country used to have a very high suicide rate. Scientists believe that our location, being so far north, with such cold and dark winters, contributed to it. I believe, this is true. In the past 20 years, our suicide rate has dropped, considerably. Part of this is due to recognising the symptoms of depression, and not having judgement towards people with it. Helping them, in an effective way. We have free care available, no judgement. We have SAD lamps, that help with the darkness. We have good exercise programmes, which can help. I think, depression, it can just seep into a person. It can be, a very serious, disease of the mind, yes. But it is not always treated as one. It's treated as being something, you can just make your mind up about, shake off. That is often not the case, with people so depressed, they take their life.

I was just talking about something like this in a discussion where a few people were just claiming that suicide/self-harm is selfish. Starting with a position like that is not helpful at all. If you actually want to help people, then you need to figure out why a person is coping by turning to self-harm or wants to end everything through suicide.

But I guess that's the difference - whether you want to help people or not.