Suicide

[ExistencePrecedesEssence]

I agree. Moral degeneracy and belief that we're here for no reason whatsoever aren't all they're hyped up to be.



As compared with the hunger, toiling for hours upon hours, constant danger and similar prospects in the past? Please. The current generation has it easy - the generation before them even easier. "Teenage angst" would never occur if the teenager in question were a practicing Christian, because those with faith in the Lord have a meaning and a purpose to live -- unlike your twisted philosophy.



Flat out denial of statistics. The fact is, they are.

I spoke not of moral degeneracy.

The current generation does not have it easy, because, and this is quite thorough, when one works 16 hours they cannot become a saint. One cannot contemplate on their situation when constantly enthralled in that which tethers them down. And to deny teenage angst, which is as much a physiological phenomena as it is of mental awareness, is to deny puberty. One does not hinder awareness if one becomes a practicing Christian--they merely suppress it. Go to a Christian prep-school and find any who fear not to speak out among their fellow or doctrine.

They only have a meaning and purpose to live because they choose to believe it, just as my very self. You too choose to believe that.

There is no statistic that states, in any thoroughness, that those of religious affiliation are limited in suicidal tendency and action. Show me this 'statistic' and I may consider it even lightly.

 

[MatthewKnight]

I spoke not of moral degeneracy.

The current generation does not have it easy, because, and this is quite thorough, when one works 16 hours they cannot become a saint. One cannot contemplate on their situation when constantly enthralled in that which tethers them down. And to deny teenage angst, which is as much a physiological phenomena as it is of mental awareness, is to deny puberty. One does not hinder awareness if one becomes a practicing Christian--they merely suppress it. Go to a Christian prep-school and find any who fear not to speak out among their fellow or doctrine.

"Teenage angst" is a modern concept. Find me a teenager in angst in the days of Christianity. You were essentially a boy, and then a man in those days -- there was no in between. Teenagers who cry endlessly about the hardship of their life are a burden. There would be nothing of the sort if our countries were still firmly Christian. Angst happens when someone reads countless arguments in favour of the fairytale of evolution and "wakes up" to the idea that life is meaningless.

They only have a meaning and purpose to live because they choose to believe it, just as my very self. You too choose to believe that.

I know the Lord to be true.

 

[ExistencePrecedesEssence]

"Teenage angst" is a modern concept. Find me a teenager in angst in the days of Christianity. You were essentially a boy, and then a man in those days -- there was no in between. Teenagers who cry endlessly about the hardship of their life are a burden. There would be nothing of the sort if our countries were still firmly Christian. Angst happens when someone reads countless arguments in favour of the fairytale of evolution and "wakes up" to the idea that life is meaningless.



I know the Lord to be true.

Every psychological definition is a modern concept. Christianity, in its present state, is a modern concept. And you were not essentially a boy, and then a man in those days--there were in betweens. People do not cry endlessly about the hardship of life without reason, it's rather to acknowledge than deny any such thing happens. It would still exist, but it would be expressed instead deep beneath the superificial covering that many of us display to one another. Angst happens when one feels an intense amount of pain or despair--one does not have to read or deduce God's non-existence to feel it. The feeling is not characterized by religious affiliation; to state otherwise is absolutely ridiculous. One does not wake up to life being meaningless; one lives the meaningless of life, it is not a situation that one 'wakes up' to. It is through choice that we see otherwise.

You may state that God almighty is the proprietor to that which is morally correct and constitutional in the direct sense of right, but it is nevertheless true that justice is a human endeavor and only human conducted. The modern age is not dissident, it is not falling; we are simply beginning to put our trust in that which has been here, beside us, all along: men.

You only know because you choose to believe you know.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

I would just like to state off the bat that the vast majority of teens are retarded. I don't mean to be jerk, but when you live amongst the little twits for so long, it's just a hard fact that you face : /

Peter's earlier comment, while harsh, is sadly often times true. I have also seen suicide used as a threat to garner attention from certain people, as when confronted by anyone else they appear normal and fine. The societies formed within schools are based on nonsensical and idiotic ideals, and take a dump on those at the bottom of the ladder. Formerly mentioned retarded teens will often use any measures to climb the social latter, including participating in worthless and blown out of proportion drama, fighting, sucking up and stepping on others.

It is also good to note that in some cultures, suicide is seen as honorable.

 

[Jebediah]

Opinions? I'm quite intent on hearing what people think of the subject because, and I don't believe I'm blowing this out of proportion, it seems the constitutions of what leads people to suicide can be both traumatic and subtle. So: what do you think?

I'm in favor of it. Everyone who want to kill themselves should not just be allowed, they should be encouraged to do it quickly, before they can change their minds.

Less weaklings who can't handle life in the gene pool is a good thing.

 

[peter22]

Oh, you're absolutely right, you pompous ass. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the volatile state of a teenager's psychology and physiology. I would expect a Buddhist to appreciate the affects of puberty on someone's thoughts and behaviour.

Recoveringphilosopher

Oh, you're absolutely right, you pompous ass. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the volatile state of a teenager's psychology and physiology. I would expect a Buddhist to appreciate the affects of puberty on someone's thoughts and behaviour.

Pull your head in. Aside from irrelevent comments, all you're really saying is that teens are 'volatile'. I said they lack life experience. Not sure why you got so cut there.

 

[MatthewKnight]

Less weaklings who can't handle life in the gene pool is a good thing.

The eternal fires of hell await you, boy.

Get some compassion for others.

 

[Quintessence]

Suicide is OK in my opinion if you have a painful terminal disease, or other awful incurable condition. But suiciding because your girlfriend broke up with you, or something trivial like that is just throwing your life away. A total waste. But I don't think that suicide should be illegal. Throwing a suicidal person in jail will NOT make them want to kill themselves any less.

 

[The Nihilist]

Recoveringphilosopher



Pull your head in. Aside from irrelevent comments, all you're really saying is that teens are 'volatile'. I said they lack life experience. Not sure why you got so cut there.

I found your snide tone offensive.

 

[peter22]

I found your snide tone offensive.

OK gotcha. Recommend: don't be so easily offended, especially on the internet.

 

[Received]

I don't think it's intelligible to speak of any advantages or disadvantages over being alive or dead. Quality relates to consciousness; consciousness relates to life. When you're dead the mechanism through which quality is registered (consciousness) dies too. It's all a nonsense question.

Suicide, outside of religious consideratoins, makes sense only in relation to those left behind. And arguably if you're going to die you can easily convince yourself that your loved ones don't matter.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

I disagree that most threats of suicide are mere bluffs. More often than not, even casual or jocular mentions of suicide can be indicative of suicidal thought.

I completely agree. A lot of people see threats of suicide and self harm as attention seeking. In a way, I guess they are. But that doesn't mean that the person making them is culpable of hurting others. To be in a place mentally where you can only imagine other people caring about you if you threaten them with suicide is horrible.

Some of us need more encouragement from people than others. Sure, it can be annoying to sit with someone complaining about their life and wanting attention, but if you wouldn't deny medicine to someone with a serious physical illness, you shouldn't deny this to people with depression.

Depression takes over a person's entire life. If you have depression, you just don't see the world in the way that everyone else does. It's not that you're going out of your way to hurt other people, life is just so terrible that it doesn't matter any more. Yes, it's selfish. But only as much as it's 'selfish' for someone with terminal cancer to expect to be looked after and not have to fulfil the same duties.

Joking is one of the ways we reveal our deepest secrets. It's more likely than not, that if someone jokes about killing themselves they actually want to deep down.

Just because you can't see depression, it doesn't make it any less a disease. We don't blame the HIV sufferer for being ill, so why should be blame the person suffering with depression for being suicidal?

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

I don't think it's intelligible to speak of any advantages or disadvantages over being alive or dead. Quality relates to consciousness; consciousness relates to life. When you're dead the mechanism through which quality is registered (consciousness) dies too. It's all a nonsense question.

Suicide, outside of religious consideratoins, makes sense only in relation to those left behind. And arguably if you're going to die you can easily convince yourself that your loved ones don't matter.

But if we quantify quality of life, then if someone is experiencing a negative quality, then suicide makes perfect sense (to that person), because you're raising the quality of life by making it nil.

 

[DoubtingThomas29]

I have the mental illness schizoaffective disorder which is schizophrenia and bipolar put together. The leading cause of premature death for schizophrenics is suicide. So suicide is something I am careful about. I make sure I am enjoying life, that I am working and progressing on goals. I hope to get out of teaching and go into a field that involves being more of a scientist. I have to take medication for my illness, and I was taking an antidepressant, but I am trying to get off of that one now. It was a real low dosage, so hopefully I don't need it.

However there are people who suffer from depression, and to finally make the urge of killing themselves go away, they get electro convulsive shock therapy, or they take antidepressants. Sometimes making suicidal thoughts go away is as simple as taking antidepressants. To me it seems strange to think as a young person with a healthy body that life is no longer worth living? I feel that life is always worth living, if you are not in agnozing screming pain. There are family reunions, and watching the news, seeing how humanity is progressig politically, and reading interesting books, and the internet. Why some people decide to kill themselves, and foreclose on all dreams, and hope of any recovery I cannot understand.

Probably what keeps me going is, just thinking, like I don't want to let my Mom down, who sees me as a succesful human being, and I am trying to live my life as a law biding citizen who was raised right, which is a lot more than what a lot of kids growing up can say about themselves. There are a lot of jerk kids growing now a days, an I am glad I wasn't one of them. So you have to keep a sense of worth, and be emotionally fit, to survive, and I try to be those things to the best of my ability.

 

[Received]

But if we quantify quality of life, then if someone is experiencing a negative quality, then suicide makes perfect sense (to that person), because you're raising the quality of life by making it nil.

That would be a delusion -- but it doesn't really matter: he still interprets it to be positive, and this dictates his action. So long as it seems good to him -- that's all that really matter. Nonetheless, it's a delusion because he's erroneously interpreting things by pushing consciousness where it doesn't apply: after death. You can't say no life is better than life, when it's through life that you valuate life (and when you're dead there's no capacity for valuation). Still...it seems to make sense to him. Our task should be to point out how meaningless his belief is.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

That would be a delusion -- but it doesn't really matter: he still interprets it to be positive, and this dictates his action. So long as it seems good to him -- that's all that really matter. Nonetheless, it's a delusion because he's erroneously interpreting things by pushing consciousness where it doesn't apply: after death. You can't say no life is better than life, when it's through life that you valuate life (and when you're dead there's no capacity for valuation). Still...it seems to make sense to him. Our task should be to point out how meaningless his belief is.

Surely if you're experiencing horrific physical pain, you're thinking that you want it to stop. You're not thinking "I want this to stop so I can carry on living a less painful life" or looking forward to when it finishes and you can have a nice cup of tea and watch the TV. You just want it stop, and that's perfectly logical. What happens afterwards doesn't matter--it's stopping what's happening now that's important.

 

[Received]

I see what you're saying. But I would say your statement would be intelligible only if the person had a secret conviction of an afterlife -- for then you could make value judgments, then things aren't nonsensical. Ironically and paradoxically, this means that suicide makes sense only in view of an afterlife. Without the conviction of an afterlife, again, even infinite pain isn't "better" than non-existence. Non-existence isn't better or worse; it's an N/A.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

I see what you're saying. But I would say your statement would be intelligible only if the person had a secret conviction of an afterlife -- for then you could make value judgments, then things aren't nonsensical. Ironically and paradoxically, this means that suicide makes sense only in view of an afterlife. Without the conviction of an afterlife, again, even infinite pain isn't "better" than non-existence. Non-existence isn't better or worse; it's an N/A.

That makes sense, but it seems to me that it depends on how you're approaching the human being and it's experiences. From a utilitarian, Buddhist, hedonist or Epicurean perspective, you might be just be talking about the experiences themselves rather than the agent (or supposed agent if you don't believe in the 'self' as such). So we'd be saying that when ____ exists, there are X units of pain overall. When ____ doesn't exist, there is nothing. Wouldn't a focus on the experiences rather than the experiencer lead to that conclusion?

I could of course be talking rubbish, given that most people I know, especially my philosophy tutor, tend to disagree with even my less extravagant philosophical positions.

 

[Received]

Yeah, but the problem is that when you say there is nothing, no pain, you don't mean it in the same way as when you're conscious. "Nothing" make sense only from the perspective of consciousness; "nothing" outside of consciousness is therefore nonsensical. You can interpret it according to whatever value system you want. Still, "nothing", no matter how it is worked out from whatever criteria, doesn't apply -- there's no-one to interpret it as nothing. I don't think you can separate experience from experiences, or experience(s) from an experiencer. You always have to interpret experiences from a phenomenological perspective, and all value judgements are based -- or should be based -- from this perspective. Phenomenologically -- you have to be alive, firsthand experience. And in this sense, "nothing" or "something" make sense consciously; when you no longer exist, concepts like nothing and something are not applicable, given that the subject isn't there to interpret them.

 

[Received]

It's a really tough thing to think about, considering how, you know, we always think from a conscious perspective. We're thus prone to project valuations that proceed from consciousness on non-conscious states, which is fallacious -- nonconscious states can't produce or interpret values (like nothing or something or good or bad). There's the rub.