Sufficient vs Necessary

[FreeGrace2]

Why doesn't everyone believe then?

People are free to believe or reject the promise of eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let's back up , again , do we admit that God knows and has always known every single person that will be saved ?

How about admitting that RT believes that God has CHOSEN those will believe and those who won't? Yes or no? Isn't that being more honest?

Does God know and has He always known every single person who shall not be saved ?

Or, to be more honest, RT believes that God didn't CHOOSE those to believe. Yes or no?

If He knows , then it is certain and cannot fall under the "might" "maybe" "perhaps" , such words describing a hypothetical salvation.

Is this a criticism of how the Bible was written? The subjunctive mood indicates that believing is potential in each person. They may or may not believe. But RT has a different view; those God chose will believe, and those He didn't choose, won't.

Then if God knows for certain who will be saved , then how can we speak of those who might have been , or deny the truth that some couldn't have been saved ?

The Bible never teaches that mankind doesn't have the innate resources/ability such that he can't believe the promise of God regarding eternal life. Yet, that is precisely what RT believes.

Either God knew you would be saved , in which case how could you not be saved ?

This isn't an issue of what God knows or doesn't know. It's all about the issue from RT that God has already CHOSEN who will and won't believe.

How about facing the real issue?

 

[cygnusx1]

How about admitting that RT believes that God has CHOSEN those will believe and those who won't? Yes or no? Isn't that being more honest?


Or, to be more honest, RT believes that God didn't CHOOSE those to believe. Yes or no?


Is this a criticism of how the Bible was written? The subjunctive mood indicates that believing is potential in each person. They may or may not believe. But RT has a different view; those God chose will believe, and those He didn't choose, won't.


The Bible never teaches that mankind doesn't have the innate resources/ability such that he can't believe the promise of God regarding eternal life. Yet, that is precisely what RT believes.


This isn't an issue of what God knows or doesn't know. It's all about the issue from RT that God has already CHOSEN who will and won't believe.

How about facing the real issue?

You seem unable to consider Gods absolute foreknowledge of every decision mankind will ever make , the point is Divine Foreknowledge is absolute and those who think they can escape the truth of predestination walk into the same "problems" you have continued to ask .... Did God know you would believe ? Yes or no ?

Of course He did ! So could you do other ? Obviously not ! But hey , why discuss the difficult if the simple truth cannot be received ?

Absolute Divine Foreknowledge is so devastating to anti RT advocates that not a few of them have decided to deny Gods absolute foreknowledge . Why ?

I don't have to "face the real issue " you do !

 

[cygnusx1]

People are free to believe or reject the promise of eternal life.

Not if they never hear the Gospel ...

 

[FreeGrace2]

You seem unable to consider Gods absolute foreknowledge of every decision mankind will ever make

This is a tacit admission that you are totally unfamiliar with my views and posts. Maybe it seems that way because you haven't paid attention to my views or posts. What you are talking about is God's omniscience, which I've championed consistently.

the point is Divine Foreknowledge is absolute and those who think they can escape the truth of predestination walk into the same "problems" you have continued to ask .... Did God know you would believe ? Yes or no ?

Of course God knows exactly who will or won't believe. But why ask that question since RT goes much further (way further than the Bible) by believing that God chooses who will believe and won't.

What I disagree with is the RT meaning of "predestination". No one is predestinated to believe.

Of course He did ! So could you do other ? Obviously not ! But hey , why discuss the difficult if the simple truth cannot be received ?

Way ahead of you here. Of course God knows, and what He knows to be will come to pass. But please prove from Scripture (not the WCF) that God determines/causes all that comes to pass. He surely knows all that comes to pass, but He didn't determine in the sense of causing all that comes to pass.

If that were true, then God causes people to sin. I absolutely reject that.

Absolute Divine Foreknowledge is so devastating to anti RT advocates that not a few of them have decided to deny Gods absolute foreknowledge . Why ?

Anyone who would deny God's omniscience/absolute foreknowledge is an idiot. Since I'm not pointing fingers at anyone on CF here, I'm not violating the rules.

Why you seem to think that I do is baffling.

So, why do you think I reject God's absolute foreknowledge of who will believe or not? Since I don't reject it.

Please be specific.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not if they never hear the Gospel ...

By rejecting God's revelation of Himself and His attributes, per Rom 1:19,20, they have tacitly rejected the gospel message. Of course one who rejects the existence of God will reject any promise that God makes.

Further, since God created mankind to seek Him, per Acts 17:26-27, those who don't seek Him have also tacitly rejected the gospel promise.

 

[cygnusx1]

By rejecting God's revelation of Himself and His attributes, per Rom 1:19,20, they have tacitly rejected the gospel message. Of course one who rejects the existence of God will reject any promise that God makes.

Further, since God created mankind to seek Him, per Acts 17:26-27, those who don't seek Him have also tacitly rejected the gospel promise.

Yet there are millions who do not fit that scenario , your view is Atheists have rejected God so the lack of a Gospel message is not an issue , yet many are not atheist and have and do believe in God/s yet have no knowledge of Christ , even amongst those who have heard of Christ few have understood the Gospel .

No man seeks God , it is pointless to deny it , if men seek God grace is unnecessary , you have far to much of an optimistic view of fallen man.

Besides your original point is flawed , even atheists have been challenged and converted by the Gospel ! Gods hand can reach anyone .

 

[cygnusx1]

This is a tacit admission that you are totally unfamiliar with my views and posts. Maybe it seems that way because you haven't paid attention to my views or posts. What you are talking about is God's omniscience, which I've championed consistently.


Of course God knows exactly who will or won't believe. But why ask that question since RT goes much further (way further than the Bible) by believing that God chooses who will believe and won't.

What I disagree with is the RT meaning of "predestination". No one is predestinated to believe.


Way ahead of you here. Of course God knows, and what He knows to be will come to pass. But please prove from Scripture (not the WCF) that God determines/causes all that comes to pass. He surely knows all that comes to pass, but He didn't determine in the sense of causing all that comes to pass.

If that were true, then God causes people to sin. I absolutely reject that.


Anyone who would deny God's omniscience/absolute foreknowledge is an idiot. Since I'm not pointing fingers at anyone on CF here, I'm not violating the rules.

Why you seem to think that I do is baffling.

So, why do you think I reject God's absolute foreknowledge of who will believe or not? Since I don't reject it.

Please be specific.

What is baffling is your denial God has any intentions ! Yet you base this absurd notion on a view of Omniscience which btw = Fatalism

It's the exact reversal of the error of open Theism , both extremes are erroneous

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yet there are millions who do not fit that scenario , your view is Atheists have rejected God so the lack of a Gospel message is not an issue

No, it is THE issue. By rejecting God they have tacitly rejected His message. Which is why they go to hell. They don't have eternal life, which is given only to believers.

yet many are not atheist and have and do believe in God/s yet have no knowledge of Christ

Sure, many people have an understanding of God, but deny many things that they have no excuse for denying. Such as the fact that He created everyone to seek Him. Many have sought God only to be deceived by Satan, to follow a false concept of God. That explains ALL the various religions of the world. It demonstrates that God DID create man to seek Him, but many seek only what they want their God to be, not THE God of creation.

even amongst those who have heard of Christ few have understood the Gospel .

If the gospel has been proclaimed clearly, it is very easy to understand. I've read various news magazines and seen enough TV programs to have seen many unbelievers give an accurate description of the gospel, yet not believing it.

No man seeks God , it is pointless to deny it

Rather, it is pointless to claim it. Apparently you've missed 3 very important words just before Paul quoted from Psa 14; "it is written…". He was quoting from Psa and the subject was those who claim that there is no God (atheists). Of course none of them seeks God. But many millions from every culture and generation HAVE sought God, but as already noted, most of them only seek what they want their God to be.

if men seek God grace is unnecessary , you have far to much of an optimistic view of fallen man.

Wrong. It is by grace that God created mankind to seek Him in the first place. So your statement is false.

Besides your original point is flawed , even atheists have been challenged and converted by the Gospel ! Gods hand can reach anyone .

I never said otherwise. I said that atheists don't seek God, whom they don't believe exists. Sure, many have been challenged and have come to faith.

Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell are but just 2 examples of atheists who came to faith. But that doesn't support your view at all.

The problem is that RT has a very mechanical view of salvation. God chose before the foundation of the world those he would save by gifting them the ability to believe through regeneration.

Yet, there is no unambiguous verses or passages that teach that mechanical view.

The Biblical view is that because Adam sinned and corrupted the entire human race, everyone is born separated from God (spiritual death). God solved the problem by sending His Son to die for the sins of the whole world, which not only removed the sin barrier that separated man from God, but purchased the gift of eternal life for everyone.

And God is pleased to save (give eternal life to) those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21

Can you refute any of the things I have said here? With Scripture?

 

[FreeGrace2]

What is baffling is your denial God has any intentions !

Szuse me???? Can you show me where I've denied that God has any intentions? For heaven's sake! 1 Tim 2:4 is a classic verse on God's intentions.

Yet you base this absurd notion on a view of Omniscience which btw = Fatalism

Please explain why you think so, because I have no idea why you do.

It's the exact reversal of the error of open Theism , both extremes are erroneous

Please explain yourself.

Seems easy to throw charges. But can any of those charges be proven?

If so, please proceed.

It's almost comical to see your misunderstanding of my view. So far, you haven't come close to it.

I've had to correct every one of your posts and misunderstandings and misrepresentations.

 

[cygnusx1]

Szuse me???? Can you show me where I've denied that God has any intentions? For heaven's sake! 1 Tim 2:4 is a classic verse on God's intentions.


. .

No your not excused , not yet ;

Again you forget yourself and play the innocent ?


"I don't believe it is correct to say that God "intended" anything. Omniscience prevents Him from intending anything. It is mankind who intends to do things. But God already knows all things, so there cannot be any intending with God" FreeGrace 2

I'm just about done discussing my views with you FG , because the responses are always the same and deflective showing little if any interaction , sorry .

 

[FreeGrace2]

No your not excused , not yet ;

Again you forget yourself and play the innocent ?

"I don't believe it is correct to say that God "intended" anything. Omniscience prevents Him from intending anything. It is mankind who intends to do things. But God already knows all things, so there cannot be any intending with God" FreeGrace 2

I'm just about done discussing my views with you FG , because the responses are always the same and deflective showing little if any interaction , sorry .

I agree with you about being done discussing. Seems context isn't very important to you. I explained my view clearly, yet you ignore it.

God does NOT "intend" in the way man does. And I was responding to what I understood from you as to God intending in the way man does. Because God is omniscient, He always has known what will come to pass. That's the sense I meant, but it seems your only motivation is to play my statements against each other, which can only be done when context is ignored.

I gave you Scripture regarding what God desires; 1 Tim 2:4. And you ignored it.

Further, there isn't anything in our "discussions" that remotely relates to the OP, so discussion in the direction it's been going only derails the OP.

 

[AndOne]

People are free to believe or reject the promise of eternal life.

...and this answer proves that you are a synergist. If people are free to reject or believe then they can participate freely in their salvation - thus helping God in their attainment of salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

...and this answer proves that you are a synergist. If people are free to reject or believe then they can participate freely in their salvation - thus helping God in their attainment of salvation.

You are quite wrong, again. Why does believing God's promise of eternal life equate to "participating" in one's salvation? How is it a "participation"?

Charges are thrown out and claims made, but without a shred of support.

RT loves to claim that the view that the act of believing what God promises means that the one believing is "participating" in their salvation.

The gross error in this type of thinking is that believing a promise in NO WAY equates to a participation in one's salvation.

This is reality: Man believes what God promises, and God does ALL the saving.

RT cannot disprove or refute this FACT.

One's act of believing does NOT "help" God, "assist" God, or in any way contribute to one's salvation. It is absurd to even suggest such a thing.

RT needs to figure this out and quit making these outrageously false claims.

God's promise is to give eternal life (save) those who believe. Jn 6:40 and 1 Cor 1:21 are linked by faith.

If I'm a synergist, then it's only because the Bible teaches it.

But, for me, synergism means or suggests that man helps God save him, or that man actually saves himself, which is totally bunk. I definitely do NOT believe that.

 

[Epiphoskei]

This is reality: Man believes what God promises, and God does ALL the saving.

RT cannot disprove or refute this FACT.

RT is that fact.

 

[FreeGrace2]

RT is that fact.

Prove it. From Scripture that SAYS what RT claims.

 

[AndOne]

You are quite wrong, again. Why does believing God's promise of eternal life equate to "participating" in one's salvation? How is it a "participation"?

Charges are thrown out and claims made, but without a shred of support.

RT loves to claim that the view that the act of believing what God promises means that the one believing is "participating" in their salvation.

The gross error in this type of thinking is that believing a promise in NO WAY equates to a participation in one's salvation.

This is reality: Man believes what God promises, and God does ALL the saving.

RT cannot disprove or refute this FACT.

One's act of believing does NOT "help" God, "assist" God, or in any way contribute to one's salvation. It is absurd to even suggest such a thing.

RT needs to figure this out and quit making these outrageously false claims.

God's promise is to give eternal life (save) those who believe. Jn 6:40 and 1 Cor 1:21 are linked by faith.

If I'm a synergist, then it's only because the Bible teaches it.

But, for me, synergism means or suggests that man helps God save him, or that man actually saves himself, which is totally bunk. I definitely do NOT believe that.

Here is your fundamental problem - and why you are a synergist. You believe that faith in Christ can be rejected. If it can be rejected then those who do not reject Christ have in and of their own free will participated with God in their salvation. It's quite simple and easily demonstrated. In order to be a true monergist you must believe that true faith is a gift that cannot be rejected.

 

[AndOne]

Prove it. From Scripture that SAYS what RT claims.

Been done.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here is your fundamental problem - and why you are a synergist. You believe that faith in Christ can be rejected.

Gee, even Jesus believed that. Which is why He noted people who rejected Him. So, that makes Him a synergist, huh.

If it can be rejected then those who do not reject Christ have in and of their own free will participated with God in their salvation.

This is simply and totally fallacious. No one has proven, much less shown definitively that the act of believing equals participating with God in their salvation. Here is the FACT: God saves the believer. Please show me how that FACT means that the believer "participated" in his own salvation, since it is God who saved him?

It's quite simple and easily demonstrated. In order to be a true monergist you must believe that true faith is a gift that cannot be rejected.

This has nothing to do with the issue. It isn't related to the issue of rejecting the gospel.

Please demonstrate HOW the act of believing equals participation in one's salvation. I don't believe anyone can do that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Been done.

OK, the claim has been made. Granted. But where are the verses that actually SAY:
Christ died ONLY for the elect
God chooses who will believe

Still waiting.