Sufficient vs Necessary

[shturt678s]

As usual, I have no idea what you mean.

Sorry bout that one again, I fault myself

IIThess.2:10b Receiving the agape of the Truth effects salvation; not to receive this agape loses the result. Then IIThess.2:11, 12 kicks in where one will have forever to think about it. Those in the womb for example aborted, God no where states where they will end up. Thank you for your patience again. :o

Old Jack

btw don't be too concerned as most, including me, don't have the Truth thus we could end in heaven even in this full blown apostasy where most think its all grace and OSAS.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Since you've yet to meet anyone who understands your view, where do you think the common denominator is?

Are you referring to a lack of paying attention, or what?

So, after 4,000+ posts, I'm still not clear enough for you??

Frankly, I believe that my view has been understood, but no one really wants to deal with it because they can't refute it. I've sure asked for it enough.

So it's easier to "misunderstand" it and keep making misrepresentations of it, so as to avoid having to face it.

imho.

 

[Hammster]

Are you referring to a lack of paying attention, or what?

So, after 4,000+ posts, I'm still not clear enough for you??

Frankly, I believe that my view has been understood, but no one really wants to deal with it because they can't refute it. I've sure asked for it enough.

So it's easier to "misunderstand" it and keep making misrepresentations of it, so as to avoid having to face it.

imho.

Yep. You are the common denominator.

 

[guuila]

Well, that was earth shattering.

 

[cygnusx1]

This is totally fallacious. I have been very vocal about the FACT that one's own believing does NOT save them. Please understand this. The entire statement is false and does NOT represent my view in the slightest.

If Christ's death did save anyone, please provide the verse that says so. People are saved through faith. Maybe that isn't very clear to some.

And reconciliation doesn't equal salvation either. Reconciliation occurred when Christ paid the sin debt and removed the sin barrier between God and man so that God's justice, which is perfect, was freed to extend grace and mercy to man. Apart from the removal of the sin barrier, God's justice could not grant grace or mercy to mankind. The debt had to be paid.

If any of this can be refuted from Scripture, please proceed.

So neither Christ's death nor saving faith saves anyone in your view !
[Staff Edit]

 

[FreeGrace2]

So neither Christ's death nor saving faith saves anyone in your view !

In fact, your understanding of my view is totally in error. Saving faith means exactly what it says.

The real question is: what IS saving faith? What is your definition?

[Staff Edit of quote]I believe the apostle Paul said it best, to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved (Acts 16:30).

"Believe (aorist imperative) on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL BE SAVED." Acts 16:31.

Do you agree?

Looking forward to your answer to the definition of saving faith.

 

[cygnusx1]

In fact, your understanding of my view is totally in error. Saving faith means exactly what it says.

The real question is: what IS saving faith? What is your definition?


I believe the apostle Paul said it best, to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved (Acts 16:30).

"Believe (aorist imperative) on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL BE SAVED." Acts 16:31.

Do you agree?

Looking forward to your answer to the definition of saving faith.

Don't bother deflecting FG2


"I have been very vocal about the FACT that one's own believing does NOT save them" FreeGrace2

And you certainly don't believe Christ saved anyone by His death


So there must be a third option , care to enlighten the readers ?

 

[sdowney717]

This position stands on sinking ground. Only those that met the Truth from God's position deserves hell.

Old Jack

All men are without excuse before God.
God tells us this in Romans 1.

God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

No one goes to hell without being guilty, ALL men are without excuse before God, And God holds them guilty. Even if they claimed ignorance, God says they are without excuse and they die and go to hell.

Just prior to this, Paul says this about the saved.
The Just Live by Faith

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ,[a] for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

So we see the contrast again of those who have faith in Christ == saved, and those with no faith even ignorantly so == damned.

 

[shturt678s]

Don't bother deflecting FG2


"I have been very vocal about the FACT that one's own believing does NOT save them" FreeGrace2

And you certainly don't believe Christ saved anyone by His death


So there must be a third option , care to enlighten the readers ?

Acts16:31, along with Jn.3:16, are compressed responses in a nut shell that needs to be cracked open, ie, the devil is in the details of course. The 3rd option is one has to be able to 'hear' and 'drawn' to Jesus by God.

Then Mk.1:15b is the 30# sledge that cracks the nut shell.

Old Jack,

agape lower paygrade posits

 

[shturt678s]

All men are without excuse before God.
God tells us this in Romans 1.

Even the modern Lutherans know that Rom.1:20 & Acts7:24-29 all deal with "natural theology," and not what men or aboted infants do with this theology. Going to have to find another passage?

God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness

This applies only to those that distressed the Kingfom of God sir, ie, met the Truth at some point of time from God's view (Matt.13:41b).

No one goes to hell without being guilty, ALL men are without excuse before God, And God holds them guilty. Even if they claimed ignorance, God says they are without excuse and they die and go to hell.

Just prior to this, Paul says this about the saved.
The Just Live by Faith


So we see the contrast again of those who have faith in Christ == saved, and those with no faith even ignorantly so == damned.

Old Jackster

now concerned if I've distressed the Kingdom

 

[sdowney717]

This applies only to those that distressed the Kingfom of God sir, ie, met the Truth at some point of time from God's view (Matt.13:41b).

Old Jackster

now concerned if I've distressed the Kingdom

Applies to all men, how else to comprehend Romans 1?
You must believe God only hold men to account for what they know, not for what they do not know.
However they perish without the law and they perish with the law.
So they are held to account for their sin, even sins done in ignorance, because sins done in ignorance they worshiped the creature, Satan, and not God.

Romans 2

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

v12, is a death sentence. All men have sinned. The soul that sins shall die. I view this the same as Jesus telling unbelievers they will die in their sins.

 

[sdowney717]

Even sins done in ignorance, God holds them guilty.

Leviticus 5:17-19
New King James Version (NKJV)

17 “If a person sins, and commits any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the Lord, though he does not know it, yet he is guilty and shall bear his iniquity. 18 And he shall bring to the priest a ram without blemish from the flock, with your valuation, as a trespass offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him regarding his ignorance in which he erred and did not know it, and it shall be forgiven him. 19 It is a trespass offering; he has certainly trespassed against the Lord.”

God says such persons have trespassed against the Lord and they will bear their iniquity.

The same today, God holds them guilty for the sins they have done ignorantly.

 

[shturt678s]

Applies to all men, how else to comprehend Romans 1?
You must believe God only hold men to account for what they know, not for what they do not know.
However they perish without the law and they perish with the law.
So they are held to account for their sin, even sins done in ignorance, because sins done in ignorance they worshiped the creature, Satan, and not God.

Rom.1:20, "are fully seen, both His everlasting power and divinity, so that they are without excuse." At least get this one as not that difficult. We have a striking oxymoron in "the things unseen - are fully seen," for how can unseen things be seen, to say nothing of being fully seen? The solutiion of the apparent contradiction is at once supplied:

"by being perceived by means of the things made." The visible things of God's creation reveal to man's mind the invisible things regarding Him. Clearly seeing the unseen regarding God is simplicity itself. It is done with the mind or reason, one that is not abstract speculation but sane and sober thought on the things made by God, all of which advertise His existence and His power and divinity, ie, not salvation thology, but natural thology.

What men do with this natural theology and how they render it ineffective Paul proceeds to state most fully.

Romans 2


v12, is a death sentence. All men have sinned. The soul that sins shall die. I view this the same as Jesus telling unbelievers they will die in their sins.

Understand Rom.1:20 then we can move to Rom.2?

Old Jack,

btw thank you sir

 

[FreeGrace2]

Don't bother deflecting FG2

I asked you to define "saving faith", and this is what you come up with?

"I have been very vocal about the FACT that one's own believing does NOT save them" FreeGrace2

I have as well. The entire time I've been posting on CF.

And you certainly don't believe Christ saved anyone by His death

Is there a verse that SAYS that? There are many verses that indicate that we are saved by faith. But it is always God doing the saving. Not our act of believing.

 

[cygnusx1]

I asked you to define "saving faith", and this is what you come up with?


I have as well. The entire time I've been posting on CF.


Is there a verse that SAYS that? There are many verses that indicate that we are saved by faith. But it is always God doing the saving. Not our act of believing.

More confusion , you say we are saved by faith and we are not saved by faith ... Then you deny Christ saved anyone by His death , and you expect men are easily able to get saved ??? ..."... Discussing what saving faith might be is hardly helping thus I defer

Start by explaining how a person gets saved .

If it's by faith why insist it's not ?

"I have been very vocal about the FACT that one's own believing does NOT save them" FreeGrace2

 

[FreeGrace2]

More confusion , you say we are saved by faith and we are not saved by faith ... Then you deny Christ saved anyone by His death , and you expect men are easily able to get saved ??? ..."…

From this, I conclude that you are very confused.

When I say "we are saved by faith", I mean exactly what Paul said in Eph 2:8.

When I say "we are not saved by faith", I mean that we are not saved by our own act of believing.

All that said, I believe what 1 Cor 1:21 says: God is pleased to save those who believe. To me, that means that when one believes, God saves.

I don't think I can boil it down any more than that.

Discussing what saving faith might be is hardly helping thus I defer

I see this as a dodge. In fact, it would help to know your view of saving faith, in order to determine whether we understand the words in the same way or not.

Start by explaining how a person gets saved .

I will defer until after you define saving faith. I asked first.

If it's by faith why insist it's not ?

See top of post for the answer to your confusion.

"I have been very vocal about the FACT that one's own believing does NOT save them" FreeGrace2

Why isn't this clear to you?

Many Calvinists seem to view non-Calvinists as believing that their own faith helps God in some way in saving them; therefore the conclusion that one's own act of believing actually saves them.

But that is not true in my view. I have no idea how Arminians view it.

Maybe this will boil it down a bit further:

When man believes, God saves. That's how one is saved by grace through faith.

 

[cygnusx1]

I concede I am baffled by your view fg2 , I am even more baffled that you cannot even see your contradiction ! Reading the post above one wonders how anyone could find salvation

 

[FreeGrace2]

I concede I am baffled by your view fg2 , I am even more baffled that you cannot even see your contradiction !

I think the problem is that because you admit to being "baffled" by my view, you are not understanding it. Therefore, you're seeing contradictions that aren't there. Until you aren't baffled by my view, you are not in a position to make any judgment at all about my view.

Only when you actually understand my view will you be qualified to make a judgment about it.

Reading the post above one wonders how anyone could find salvation

Just a drive-by critique? Could you provide a reason why you posted that? That'll be the only way I'll know where your confusion lies.

I presume that you do understand that when man believes, it is an action on his part. Right or wrong?

That being so, we aren't saved by OUR action of believing, but by God who does ALL the action of saving. Right or wrong?

So, OUR action is believing, and God's action is saving. Right or wrong?

Your answers to these questions will inform me as to how much you understand of my view.

Thanks.

 

[cygnusx1]

I think the problem is that because you admit to being "baffled" by my view, you are not understanding it. Therefore, you're seeing contradictions that aren't there. Until you aren't baffled by my view, you are not in a position to make any judgment at all about my view.

Only when you actually understand my view will you be qualified to make a judgment about it.


Just a drive-by critique? Could you provide a reason why you posted that? That'll be the only way I'll know where your confusion lies.

I presume that you do understand that when man believes, it is an action on his part. Right or wrong?

That being so, we aren't saved by OUR action of believing, but by God who does ALL the action of saving. Right or wrong?

So, OUR action is believing, and God's action is saving. Right or wrong?

Your answers to these questions will inform me as to how much you understand of my view.

Thanks.

Man is saved by being united to Christ in His death and resurrection having his sins atoned for , this atonement is to be received by faith a faith granted through grace . Christ is our substitute , He came to deal with sin to destroy the power of Satan and by His blood cleanse Us . Christ was taken and crucified as our substitionary saviour , the punishment for our sin fell on Him , this atonement is saving , it is to be received by faith : THAT IS HOW A PERSON IS SAVED.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Man is saved by being united to Christ in His death and resurrection having his sins atoned for , this atonement is to be received by faith a faith granted through grace . Christ is our substitute , He came to deal with sin to destroy the power of Satan and by His blood cleanse Us . Christ was taken and crucified as our substitionary saviour , the punishment for our sin fell on Him , this atonement is saving , it is to be received by faith : THAT IS HOW A PERSON IS SAVED.

That's nice.

The Bible says that God saves those who believe (1 Cor 1:21). I like it succinct.

Actually, man is snot saved "by being united to Christ". Union with Christ is what the Holy Spirit does to the believer (already saved).

Atonement has nothing to do with salvation. Christ atoned for the sins of everyone because the Bible tells us that He died for everyone.

The ability to believe is from grace, but that ability doesn't save us. God saves the believer.

Yes, Christ is our Substitute. He took the place of mankind on the cross and paid for all of mankind's sins. 1 Jn 2:2 says so.

Your last point: "this atonement is saving, it is to be received by faith" is untrue.

We don't "receive atonement", nor does atonement save. If that were so, even in RT Christ's death already saved all He died for, rendering the act of faith null and void. Yet the Bible teaches very clearly that we are saved through faith.

And Paul's answer to the jailer who asked what he MUST DO to be saved is clear: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL BE SAVED.

iow, no one is saved UNTIL they believe. But your statements conclude that Christ's atonement saves those He atoned for. So even if He had only died for the elect, then they would already be saved. That means you and I would have been born saved. That is wrong.