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Sufficient vs Necessary

Hammster

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I will clarify. God has created mankind with everything necessary to come to faith. Does He provide the act of believing? No. But He provided everything man needs in order to believe.

The act of believing is the acceptance of the free gift of eternal life. Or, to say it another way, it is believing the promise of God: Jn 6:40.

If that can be refuted from Scripture, please proceed. Keep in mind that a refutation is accomplished not by simply claiming things, or disagreeing, but quoting verses that SAY the opposite of my views.

My views are based what I read in the Bible. And I don't find verses that SAY what RT claims. It's that simple. When someone does find verses that actually SAYS what RT claims, then it's pretty obvious that I'll have to change my view.

Since the ability to believe is an act of creation, it's not an act of grace. Therefore, grace is necessary in your view, but not sufficient. Man still must believe before being born again. Thanks for your clarification.
 
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FreeGrace2

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So God gives man what he needs, and then the rest is up to man.
This statment insinuates that man's act of believing helps God save him, or that man's faith saves him, all of which is total nonsense, which you well know.

Synergism.
Seems a review of the definition is in order again. I provided this in another post last year, but let's just put this erroneous charge to rest, ok?

From Monergism -
2) Synergism

Synergism is the error that affirms that the natural man can cooperate with God in the regeneration process (the new birth) ...that an unregenerate person has the moral capacity to embrace the Gospel apart from the work of the Spirit to open our eyes, ears and heart to the gospel.

I reject that faith is a cooperation with God in regeneration. The Bible says that God is the Regenerator, and He doesn't need help. Second, "moral capacity" is fallacious. God created mankind with the intellect with which to understand the gospel and the freedom to either accept or reject it. And, thirdly, the Holy Spirit most surely DOES work in the hearts of unbelievers, per John 16:8,9.

Again, remember what our interpretive Key to the Bible is? Jesus Christ. So, in relation to regeneration and conversion, when the gospel is preached, what makes people to differ in their response to it? Does Jesus Christ make us differ or does something else make us to differ? This "something else" may take various forms; it may be something native to the human constitution (i.e. Pelagianism) or something alien yet universal (i.e. Arminianism)? In either case, the point is that it is not Christ that makes the difference. Anyone who claims that the difference arises from one of these something-else has failed to see first our hopelessness as fallen creatures apart from Christ and second the exclusive sufficiency of Christs s saving work. If I am different than my neighbor because of something other than Jesus Christ, then Christ, whatever role he may play, cannot be central to my understanding of salvation. He may beonly partly responsible for it. It is the grace we have in Christ that saves, and nothing in addition to it.

I reject this because I don't believe that men are "different" in the sense of why some believe and some do not. God created all men with the intellect with which to understand the gospel, plus the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of unbelievers (Jn 16:8,9) in conviction of sin. But the Bible is clear that men reject grace and the Holy Spirit.

So, once again I've provided the MONERGISM's definition of synergism and I reject that view.

Now, if you reject the definition, the problem is yours, because that definition came from one of "your" websites. Calvinists claim to be monergists. Well, either accept what that site defines as synergism or quit calling yourself a monergist.

Here's the definition of monergism from the same site:
A Simple Explanation of Monergism
by John Hendryx

Monergism simply means that it is God who gives ears to hear and eyes to see. It is God alone who gives illumination and understanding of His word that we might believe; It is God who raises us from the dead, who circumcises the heart; unplugs our ears; It is God alone who can give us a new sense that we may, at last, have the moral capacity to behold His beauty and unsurpassed excellency. Except for "moral capacity", I agree with all of this. The apostle John recorded Jesus saying to Nicodemus that we naturally love darkness, hate the light and WILL NOT come into the light (John 3:19, 20). Yet, he ignores Jn 1:7 - "He (John the baptizer) came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that thourgh Him all men MIGHT believe". And since our hardened resistance to God is thus seated in our affections, only God, by His grace, can lovingly change, overcome and disarm our rebellious disposition. I believe this occurs with regeneration, which doesn't occur before faith. The natural man, apart from the quickening work of the Holy Spirit, will not come to Christ on his own since he is at enmity with God and cannot understand spiritual things. False. 1 Cor 2:14 isn't about the gospel, but about a "message for the (spiritually) mature (v.6) and the "deep things of God" (v.10). Shining a light into a blind man's eyes will not enable his to see, since, as we all know, sight requires new eyes or some restoration of his visual faculty. Faulty analogy since Jesus actually said that the "dead with hear" (Jn 5:25). RT believes that regeneration is necessary for hearing. Likewise, reading or hearing the word of God itself cannot elicit saving faith in the reader (or hearer) unless the Spirit first "germinates" the seed of the word in the heart, so to speak, which then infallibly gives rise to our faith and union with Christ. False. There is nothiing "infallible" about it. Yes, the Holy Spirit has a ministry of conviction, but man is free to accept or reject the free gift. RT has not proven otherwise. Like unto Lydia whom "the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul," (Acts 16:14) He must also give all His people spiritual life and understanding if their hearts are to be open and thus turn (respond) to Christ in faith.

Since faith is infinitely beyond all the power of our unregenerated human nature, This is false as well. Faith is believing God's promise of eternal life. And God created mankind with all that is necessary to understand the promise and the freedom to accept or reject. it is only God who can give the spiritual ears to hear and eyes to see the beauty of Christ in the gospel. God alone disarms the hostility of the sinner turning his heart of stone to a heart of flesh. So the problem of conversion is not with the Word or God's Law but with man's prideful heart. What does RT do with Ezek 18:31, where God tells the people to make themselves a new heart? The humility required to submit to the gospel (which is beyond man's natural capacity) This is false. is, therefore, not prompted by man's will but by God's mercy (John 1:13; Rom 9:16) since no one can believe the gospel unless God grants it (John 6:63, 65). The Spirit must likewise give all His people spiritual life and understanding if their hearts are to be opened and thus respond to Christ in faith.


So, I'm neither a synergist nor a monergist by these definitions. Because the Bible doesn't teach either view. As I've explained.
 
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G

guuila

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This statment insinuates that man's act of believing helps God save him, or that man's faith saves him, all of which is total nonsense, which you well know.

No it doesn't. It insinuates that in your system, man's faith in Jesus, which is an act of libertarian free will, justifies him. Synergism.

So, I'm neither a synergist nor a monergist by these definitions. Because the Bible doesn't teach either view. As I've explained.

Right.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Okay. So the sinner makes the second move.
No, the sinner simply responds to the promise of the gospel, found in 1 Jn 2:25- This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

Then God responds.
Again, wrong. Man responds, and God ACTS. Recall His promise, which self obligates Him. So He ACTS on His promise when man responds to His promise.

If this isn't clear, please ask for clarification. If this can be refuted from Scripture, please proceed, because I don't want to be wrong about this.

[/QUOTE]Sure. Just go back and read any post on CF directed to you. Done.[/QUOTE]
Really? "Any" post, huh? Many of my questions have been ignored/dodged. Some have been "answered" by a totally irrelevant question. Yet, none of them has used Scripture that says the OPPOSITE of what I believe. That would be a large zero. I'm still waiting for verses that say the opposite of what I believe. I'll have no choice (no pun intended) but to believe any verse that says opposite of what I believe.

So are you going to change your views?
When someone finally does provide verses that SAY the opposite of what I believe. And not until.

btw, just claiming something doesn't equal reality.

Can you predict who will believe?
This question is totally irrelevant to my comment, which was:
"Why does RT believe that God chooses who will believe?"

Your question has no relevance at all to my comment. And you once again dodged my question. Thanks for the evidence for my comment above.

Are there any verses that SAY that God chooses who will believe. I know that RT believes that God does elect who will believe, so where are the verses?

Please don't dodge again.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Since the ability to believe is an act of creation, it's not an act of grace.
Says who, exactly? And why do you believe such a silly idea?

Therefore, grace is necessary in your view, but not sufficient. Man still must believe before being born again. Thanks for your clarification.
Well, you're not welcome for once again mischaracterizing my view, which seems to be an on-going occurrence here.

I've explained in detail WHY grace is sufficient, but you either don't grasp it or you don't believe it. That is not my problem. It is clear that we have differing views on definitions of words. So we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

But I've been real clear about requesting posters to refute me from Scripture. And I'm still waiting for those verses that SAY the opposite of what I believe.

I can't change my view until I read verses that SAY the opposite of what I believe.
 
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FreeGrace2

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No it doesn't. It insinuates that in your system, man's faith in Jesus, which is an act of libertarian free will, justifies him.
Wrong again. But I'm getting tired of having to keep correcting your errors. I have been very clear; man's act of believing neither saves him nor justifies him. God does it all to those who believe. That is exactly what the Bible says.

Your argument is with the Bible. Good luck with that.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Which is the second move. Then God ACTS. Thanks for clarifying.
You're always welcome. btw, since you disagree with my view, can it be refuted from Scripture that actually SAYS the opposite of what I believe?
 
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Hammster

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Says who, exactly? And why do you believe such a silly idea?
You said it. "God has created mankind with everything necessary to come to faith."

And I don't believe it. But it's strange that you think it's silly.

Well, you're not welcome for once again mischaracterizing my view, which seems to be an on-going occurrence here.

I've explained in detail WHY grace is sufficient, but you either don't grasp it or you don't believe it. That is not my problem. It is clear that we have differing views on definitions of words. So we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

But I've been real clear about requesting posters to refute me from Scripture. And I'm still waiting for those verses that SAY the opposite of what I believe.

I can't change my view until I read verses that SAY the opposite of what I believe.

I think you're missing the point of this thread. It's not about who is right and who is wrong concerning how one is born again. It's about the role of grace in each view. Since, according you you, man CANNOT be born again until he believes, that makes grace a necessary component of salvation, but not sufficient to save anyone on it's own. And the OP defined what was meant by "necessary" and "sufficient", at least as far as the discussion here is concerned.
 
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Hammster

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Wrong again. But I'm getting tired of having to keep correcting your errors. I have been very clear; man's act of believing neither saves him nor justifies him. God does it all to those who believe. That is exactly what the Bible says.

Your argument is with the Bible. Good luck with that.

Yes, you've been clear. But man's belief is necessary before he can be born again. That's why grace alone is not sufficient in your system.
 
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shturt678s

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Yes, you've been clear. But man's belief is necessary before he can be born again. That's why grace alone is not sufficient in your system.

You somehow got one part of it, ie, one's "instant of faith" (step #1) is in the same gospel sphere as "born again" (step #2) and is necessary for step #2 for those that have water and the time available. More than enough grace for the guilty which pretty much includes alll.

Old Jack
 
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FreeGrace2

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Not sure.
Hm, I said this:
btw, since you disagree with my view, can it be refuted from Scripture that actually SAYS the opposite of what I believe?
and you aren't sure. Then why do you argue for what you aren't sure about? I don't understand that. I argue from what I have found in Scripture. I don't argue about what I can't find in Scripture.

At least we know that you aren't sure about being able to refute my view.

But I'm glad we agree on one thing - man makes the second move in your system.
The point is that God is pleased with faith (heb 11:6); those who believe His promise of eternal life (1 Jn 2:25). And being so, He is pleased to save those who believe (1 Cor 1:21).
 
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FreeGrace2

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You said it. "God has created mankind with everything necessary to come to faith."
I find it interesting and odd how you twist my words all around in order to try to make it look like I've contradicted myself.

This is what you had said, when I responded with "says who?"
Since the ability to believe is an act of creation, it's not an act of grace.
The "says who" was directed at the last part, "it's not an act of grace". Not the first part. I know full well what I said, which was the first part.

And I don't believe it. But it's strange that you think it's silly.
What I do think is silly is your comment that "it's not an act of grace".

The FACT that anyone can believe is by God's grace. But it seems RT would deny that and claim that God's grace only allows some to believe.

I think you're missing the point of this thread. It's not about who is right and who is wrong concerning how one is born again. It's about the role of grace in each view.
I've not missed anything. And I've explained in detail HOW God's grace provides everything that man needs to believe. Whether he does or not is a different issue.

Since, according you you, man CANNOT be born again until he believes, that makes grace a necessary component of salvation, but not sufficient to save anyone on it's own.
No it doesn't. Since no one has refuted my point about God's grace has given everyone the ability to believe, and in fact you keep ignoring without so much as at least noting that view, why should I change my view? On what basis?

And the OP defined what was meant by "necessary" and "sufficient", at least as far as the discussion here is concerned.
And I explained WHY grace is both.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Yes, you've been clear. But man's belief is necessary before he can be born again. That's why grace alone is not sufficient in your system.
Belief is covered by grace, which fact you seem to not want to acknowledge.

Can anyone refute my view that grace includes the fact that man has been given everything to come to saving faith? No.

Has RT proven that God chooses who will believe and gives them an ability that the non-chosen do not have? No.

Is there any reason I should change my view?
 
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Hammster

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I find it interesting and odd how you twist my words all around in order to try to make it look like I've contradicted myself.

This is what you had said, when I responded with "says who?"
Since the ability to believe is an act of creation, it's not an act of grace.
The "says who" was directed at the last part, "it's not an act of grace". Not the first part. I know full well what I said, which was the first part.


What I do think is silly is your comment that "it's not an act of grace".

The FACT that anyone can believe is by God's grace. But it seems RT would deny that and claim that God's grace only allows some to believe.


I've not missed anything. And I've explained in detail HOW God's grace provides everything that man needs to believe. Whether he does or not is a different issue.


No it doesn't. Since no one has refuted my point about God's grace has given everyone the ability to believe, and in fact you keep ignoring without so much as at least noting that view, why should I change my view? On what basis?


And I explained WHY grace is both.

I can't seem to get past your inconsistencies. Either belief is an act of grace, or it's an ability given to everyone as an act of creation. You've tried to claim both. Let me know when you've sorted it out.
 
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Hammster

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Belief is covered by grace, which fact you seem to not want to acknowledge.

Can anyone refute my view that grace includes the fact that man has been given everything to come to saving faith? No.

Has RT proven that God chooses who will believe and gives them an ability that the non-chosen do not have? No.

Is there any reason I should change my view?

If belief is covered by grace, then everyone should believe. We know that's not the case.
 
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