Suffering

[Reformationist]

Okay, I'll take you to task on this one. What happens to a predestined, saved believer when he rebukes his cross that God gave him to carry for his glory?

This issue is clearly explained in the Word and is helpful to us when we question our own faith as we see people that we thought were Christians leave the faith. There are two possible scenarios that this could fall into. First, at some point that person will return to his/her faith and the glory of the Lord will be magnified. Or second, we turn to Scripture for an explanation:

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

This is an often used evangelical if/then statement. If they are of us, then they continue with us. If they don't continue with us, then they weren't of us.

God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

This issue is clearly explained in the Word and is helpful to us when we question our own faith as we see people that we thought were Christians leave the faith.

I have heard this explanation before.

But I am not necessarily saying that a person who rejects suffering (like Andrew) left his or her faith, I am saying what if you believe like Andrew, that suffering is not of God and/or you are not willing to suffer, what happens to the believer?

 

[Photini]

When I was despairing over a certain matter, I wrote a priest who I've grown very close to. This was part of his response to me in reference to the suffering I experience.

"....see it for what it truly is- a temptation from the devil trying to discourage you. God is found in the heart, and if you will only be patient for a little while- that "little while" being all your life and whatever it sends your way, then when this vale of tears has been passed through, you will have eternity to thank God that you did not lose heart, or patience, and that you did not falter. Whatever we must suffer in this life- lonliness, rejection, and suffering- is that which Our Savior endured for our sake- for our eternal life. Cannot we spend that "one hour" with Him, or will we too fall asleep, having missed that opportunity to be with Our Lord. Take that lonliness and sorrow and grief....accepting it willingly and lovingly for His sake, and He will give you ever so much in return.

 

[Benedicta00]

When I was despairing over a certain matter, I wrote a priest who I've grown very close to. This was part of his response to me in reference to the suffering I experience.

"....see it for what it truly is- a temptation from the devil trying to discourage you. God is found in the heart, and if you will only be patient for a little while- that "little while" being all your life and whatever it sends your way, then when this vale of tears has been passed through, you will have eternity to thank God that you did not lose heart, or patience, and that you did not falter. Whatever we must suffer in this life- lonliness, rejection, and suffering- is that which Our Savior endured for our sake- for our eternal life. Cannot we spend that "one hour" with Him, or will we too fall asleep, having missed that opportunity to be with Our Lord. Take that lonliness and sorrow and grief....accepting it willingly and lovingly for His sake, and He will give you ever so much in return.

That is what I am talking about...the power of the cross that transforms us into Christ image when we embrace our cross.

That is what he died to give us and deliver us from, despair.

 

[Reformationist]

I am saying what if you believe like Andrew, that suffering is not of God and/or you are not willing to suffer, what happens to the believer?

You end up suffering anyway but you have to either assume that God is capricious or unable to stop it.

God bless

 

[SavedByGrace3]

If God did not will it ,it could not happen. Nothing can happen outside the will of God ....

This is probably one of the greatest hinderances to faith and greatest misconceptions about God in the church world today.
In the realm of theolgy we have what are commonly called the "general attributes of God." These are the "omni" factors. Believers have been taught to understand God first and formost by these teachings. Alas, they are contrary to the what scripture says about God. The nature, will, and attributes of God have been revealed to us in the life and ministry of Jesus. Yet many believers are erroneously replacing the Jesus image with these "omni" factors in their understanding and image of God. We see in this thread and in others how it affects the faith of those who do so.

Instead of: "Jesus went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil", we see:
"God lets the devil do things to us and it is His will that these things happen."

Instead of: "Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth", we see: "God puts (allows) sickness and suffering on people to teach them something"

Instead of: "Christ says 'Yes' to all of God's promises. That's why we have Christ to say 'Amen' for us to the glory of God(CEV)", we still see people begging and pleading faithlessly for things that He has already said yes and amen about.

We see believers applying "Job" truth to their lives when they should be applying "Jesus" truth. The above mentioned "omni" factors are a carry over from the old greek and roman religions where the gods sat up in heaven and played with people like toys. We are the children of God not the toys of God. God did not send His only begotten Son to die just to fix his broken toys. He came that we might have life and have it more abundantly.

Some of you blessed folks need to throw away your theology books and pick up your Jesus book. He is the exact image of who and what God the Father is. If Jesus did it, that is what the Father does. If Jesus did not do it, then it is only because the Father does not do it. Get rid of any understanding the is contrary to the Jesus image of God, even if it is one of these "omin" factors!
Do not replace the gospel with the "general attributes of God!" Return my brothers and sisters to the simplicity that is the gospel of Jesus Christ!

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

I see this all the time in the lives of believers. The devil suggests a lie to them and they believe it:

"Hath God really made Jesus Lord?"
"Have you really been healed by the stripes of Jesus?"
"Does He really want you to be and health and prosper?"
"Have all the promisese of God really been made yes and amen in Him?"
"If God wanted you healed, then you would be, after all nothing happens outside of His will..."

Look to Jesus my friends, He is the author and finisher of our faith... not Job, not gereral attributes, certainly not the devil.

Blessings in Him

Didy

 

[Benedicta00]

You end up suffering anyway but you have to either assume that God is capricious or unable to stop it.

God bless

Every trial and tribulation we encounter can be a grace from God if we do not reject it, but if we do reject it then we hand ourselves over to the temptations of the enemy.

So you do not agree with my original statement?

If we reject it, we know the person will suffer anyway, that is the point, they can either have it as a blessing to them or they can do just what Satan designed for them to do and have it serve a curse to them but either way they will still suffer.

If they keep rebuking it and believe that it is not a grace from God but a curse then they open themselves up to all kinds of oppression (bitterness, depression, etc) and then they can never reap the benefits that God also planned to give them.


If they accept it then they will find peace and the presence of God with them and they can grow from that but either way they will still suffer.


It does not have much to do with us stopping it because we can't, we know God can and will bring good out of it but what the person does with the suffering makes a difference in their walk with Christ, their sanctity and spiritual growth.

Where we more part ways is that I believe if a person continually rebukes God's will, they can become so blinded by Satan talking in his ear telling him that God does not want him to suffer, blah, blah, blah or that a good God would not do this to them, etc, that they can lose faith and fall away.

I know you believe other wise but my point was that even if we do not lose faith we can remain at a stand still in our faith and we will never grow and move further our on road to sanctity.

I believe the bottom line is when we suffer we have a great opportunity to be like Jesus, to be conformed into his image by baring our sufferings with all the divine virtues Jesus possessed.

It is a great opportunity to be like Jesus but if you think that God would never do that to you then you miss the boat.

So my question has more to do with what happens when a believer misses the big picture behind why he suffers?

 

[Benedicta00]

This is probably one of the greatest hinderances to faith and greatest misconceptions about God in the church world today.
In the realm of theolgy we have what are commonly called the "general attributes of God." These are the "omni" factors. Believers have been taught to understand God first and formost by these teachings. Alas, they are contrary to the what scripture says about God. The nature, will, and attributes of God have been revealed to us in the life and ministry of Jesus. Yet many believers are erroneously replacing the Jesus image with these "omni" factors in their understanding and image of God. We see in this thread and in others how it affects the faith of those who do so.

Instead of: "Jesus went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil", we see:
"God lets the devil do things to us and it is His will that these things happen."

Instead of: "Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth", we see: "God puts (allows) sickness and suffering on people to teach them something"

Instead of: "Christ says 'Yes' to all of God's promises. That's why we have Christ to say 'Amen' for us to the glory of God(CEV)", we still see people begging and pleading faithlessly for things that He has already said yes and amen about.

We see believers applying "Job" truth to their lives when they should be applying "Jesus" truth. The above mentioned "omni" factors are a carry over from the old greek and roman religions where the gods sat up in heaven and played with people like toys. We are the children of God not the toys of God. God did not send His only begotten Son to die just to fix his broken toys. He came that we might have life and have it more abundantly.

Some of you blessed folks need to throw away your theology books and pick up your Jesus book. He is the exact image of who and what God the Father is. If Jesus did it, that is what the Father does. If Jesus did not do it, then it is only because the Father does not do it. Get rid of any understanding the is contrary to the Jesus image of God, even if it is one of these "omin" factors!
Do not replace the gospel with the "general attributes of God!" Return my brothers and sisters to the simplicity that is the gospel of Jesus Christ!

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

I see this all the time in the lives of believers. The devil suggests a lie to them and they believe it:

"Hath God really made Jesus Lord?"
"Have you really been healed by the stripes of Jesus?"
"Does He really want you to be and health and prosper?"
"Have all the promisese of God really been made yes and amen in Him?"
"If God wanted you healed, then you would be, after all nothing happens outside of His will..."

Look to Jesus my friends, He is the author and finisher of our faith... not Job, not gereral attributes, certainly not the devil.

Blessings in Him

Didy

We also read Jesus saying, "what does it prophet a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul."

Sometimes God knows if some of us never suffered then we would wrongly believe that we do not need God.

Others believe that God is just a cosmic Santa Claus, there to give them what ever they want.

I think Jesus was refering to those when he asked, "what does it prophet a man to gain the whole world"?


Of course we believe that Jesus came to deliver us from all kinds of evil but I guess it boils down to how you define being delivered. I do not believe I am being delivered if God just gives me what ever * I * think I need.

God sees things that we simply can’t. He knows what is ultimately best for us and that takes a certain level of trust from us to believe he is working good in our lives even if we can not see anything but darkness.

You can and should ask for physical healings and deliverance Jesus most certainly did but he said "as you will it, not as I will it" but if you ask and they remain it is not because your faith is not strong enough, it is not about you.

If your suffering still remains, it is God's will and you really should just offer it back to him with a glad heart because if you keep thinking there is something wrong with your faith, then your just going to end up driving yourself crazy and that is what the devil wants you to do.

You see, that is where all the power lyes in the cross. Jesus suffered and all thought Satan had won until he rose.

Jesus in a perfect act of obedience to God's will turned suffering into a great grace for us all and sometimes it is God's will that we to suffer.

God does not set out to work evil in our lives, that is not what RNmomof7 meant, what she meant is that God allowed evil to remain and he allows it to be inflicted on us but he is in control and he can turn it around and have what those believed was a curse become glory to him by bringing good out of the evil that he saw fit to remain with us.

We as born again Christians have the power of the cross living in us that can transform suffering into something beautiful for God, the same way that Jesus turned great evil and suffering into something beautiful.

That to me is deliverance, we break the power of Satan by baring our sufferings with divine virtue by uniting our sufferings with Jesus' suffering, we are tapping into the power of the cross.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Thanks for the response Shelb5

We also read Jesus saying, "what does it prophet a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul."

The question that immediately comes to my mind when this argument is used is this: Since when does God ask us to choose either or? Can you only have one or the other? Where does it say "you can be healthy or you can be saved: one or the other... but not both"? And again (I know I harp on this all the time, but it is what we are supposed to do) where did Jesus ever ask a person to choose either or? We are not talking about "the whole world" here, we are just talking about health and having needs met. Where does He say, "you can have heaven or you can have your needs met... but not both"? If this is true, then there should be no healthy Christians. They would have all forsaken salvation for health. It just does not make sense to try and apply this reasoning.

Sometimes God knows if some of us never suffered then we would wrongly believe that we do not need God.

People may suffer, but that is not a result of the will of God. If you have to go through suffering to turn you around, then that is your doing... not His. You could have just listened to the gospel, obeyed His call, and been saved to start with. But the suffering had nothing to do with your salvation. In the end, you still had to repent and believe. People do not have to walk in darkness... if they do it is their own fault. The light and the Word is there. The Spirit is calling. All they have to do is obey.

Others believe that God is just a cosmic Santa Claus, there to give them what ever they want.

Well, anyone who thinks God is a santa claus is selling Him short. Santa Claus could not do 1/10000000th of what God can do. God is much more loving, kind, generous, and merciful than any Santa Claus could be. Not only will He give us whatever we want, He has things planned for us far beyond what we could even imagine or dream! We ain't seen nothing yet!!!

I think Jesus was referring(sic) to those when he asked, "what does it prophet a man to gain the whole world"?

Again, I do not think that in any way shape or manner He saying that we have to choose between health and salvation. He never asked anyone to make such a choice in His entire ministry, and since Jesus is the exact image of what the Father is like, we have to believe that the Father is the same way. And we are not talking about the whole world here… we are talking about shoes for the kids and not dying from cancer.

Of course we believe that Jesus came to deliver us from all kinds of evil but I guess it boils down to how you define being delivered. I do not believe I am being delivered if God just gives me what ever * I * think I need.

If you are sick and dying of cancer, you need to be delivered. If you cannot pay your bills and your children are hungry, you are under a curse and need to be delivered. These are examples of suffering. I am not talking about asking for the world. I am talking about feeding the kids, putting shoes on their feet, and not dying and leaving them orphaned and my wife a widow.

God sees things that we simply can’t. He knows what is ultimately best for us and that takes a certain level of trust from us to believe he is working good in our lives even if we can not see anything but darkness.

Faith is not just taking whatever comes down the pike and accepting it as the will of God. That is not faith: that is resignation. That is not overcoming, that is undergoing. Faith believes what the Word of God says. Faith means having a correct image of what God is like (again, that is the image that Jesus gave us) and believing that He is good and His mercy endures forever. It does not accept evil things the devil throws at us, attribute them to God, and resign to their presence. That is not faith, that giving up.

You can and should ask for physical healings and deliverance Jesus most certainly did but he said "as you will it, not as I will it" but if you ask and they remain it is not because your faith is not strong enough, it is not about you.

But He also went forward and performed the will of God. He knew what the will of the Father was, and walked in the light of it. The Word tells us what the will of God is, and we have to walk in the light of it. You are very correct, it is not about us, it is about the Word. What does the word say. What is the image of God that Jesus showed us. If we are to be faithful to Him and His word, we have no choice but to say out loud, "God is, and He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him". It is not faith to say “God is, but I am going accept everything that comes as from Him”

If your suffering still remains, it is God's will and you really should just offer it back to him with a glad heart because if you keep thinking there is something wrong with your faith, then your just going to end up driving yourself crazy and that is what the devil wants you to do.

You seem to be saying that we should define who God is (His very nature), and what His will is according to the fruit of our own faith (or worse, our doubt). This is what you are doing when you act as you describe. People fail to receive in the ministry of Jesus, He did not say "well, it must not have been the will of God for them to be healed, the Father must want them sick.." No. He just marveled at their lack of faith. I see many today use this same logic. But Jesus said to believe "...when you pray..." Not after you are healed. ANYONE can believe after they are healed!

You see, that is where all the power lyes(sic) in the cross. Jesus suffered and all thought Satan had won until he rose.

If satan has lost, then we have to assume (rightly) that the works of the devil have been destroyed. We do not have to endure something that has been destroyed. We do not have to take it from someone (the devil) who has been defeated. The fact that He rose proves to us and all that the devil has been defeated. The only “power” he has is the lie. If he can get us to believe the lies then he can keep us sick, poor, and suffering.

Jesus in a perfect act of obedience to God's will turned suffering into a great grace for us all and sometimes it is God's will that we to suffer.

Exactly! So if He has already suffered... then there is no reason for us to suffer also! He has redeemed us from the curse of the law. All the promises of God have been made yes and amen. There is no logic or legal reason for us to continue suffering.

God does not set out to work evil in our lives, that is not what RNmomof7 meant, what she meant is that God allowed evil to remain and he allows it to be inflicted on us but he is in control and he can turn it around and have what those believed was a curse become glory to him by bringing good out of the evil that he saw fit to remain with us.

He can... but we do not have to have this evil to start with, and God does not have to have the evil in our lives to bless us. What is better, to get sick and healed, or to walk in divine health all along? God does not need our suffering and sickness to accomplish His will. His will is that we all be saved, healed, and be overcomers in life.

We as born again Christians have the power of the cross living in us that can transform suffering into something beautiful for God, the same way that Jesus turned great evil and suffering into something beautiful.

That would seem to glorify us, not God. There is no suffering in heaven... we are never told to ask for suffering. If suffering is so great and if it is what God needs to create beauty in the world, then why are we not all instructed to go get sick and plunge our families and churches into abject poverty. That would really be a sad and pitiful image of God. That is not the glorious and merciful God I have come to know. That is not the Father that Jesus showed us. God does not need your suffering to glorify Himself. He is doing great without it.

That to me is deliverance, we break the power of Satan by baring our sufferings with divine virtue by uniting our sufferings with Jesus' suffering, we are tapping into the power of the cross.

That is nice sounding Selb5... but that is just not the gospel or the God that Jesus showed us. If is very religious and devotional sounding. I am sure it evokes a tear in the eyes of some. But Jesus is Lord. His suffering has accomplished everything needed to effect our salvation, sanctification, and justification. He finished the work. He is the author and finisher of our faith. We cannot add one thing to that work. We just accept His passion and believe. All of this suffering does not add one iota to our spiritual growth or increase our relationship with God one bit. Jesus accomplished it all. Believe in Him... forget about all these dead work sufferings. We glorify Him by accepting His work and ascribing the glory and praise to Him.

Blessings
Didy

 

[Andrew]

preach it brother! preach it!

 

[Photini]

Exactly! So if He has already suffered... then there is no reason for us to suffer also!
Blessings
Didy

Sooooo.....theoretically, the "true" Christian shouldn't have to undergo any suffering? Is there Scripture that says that because Christ suffered in the world, that we would not suffer also in the world?

 

[nyj]

Originally Posted By: didaskalos

Exactly! So if He has already suffered... then there is no reason for us to suffer also!

Matthew 16:24
If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

 

[Benedicta00]

didaskalos,

I'm just going to trust God on this one. I pray for him to heal me in anyway in which I need to be healed and I believe 100% that he always grants me a healing.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Sooooo.....theoretically, the "true" Christian shouldn't have to undergo any suffering? Is there Scripture that says that because Christ suffered in the world, that we would not suffer also in the world?

A hypothetical theoritical theological question phrased in the negative is somewhat difficult to answer. Your question is very subtle in it's phasology... kind of like saying "hath God indeed said Jesus has redeemed you from the curse of the law?"

I could believe the suggestion that He failed in His efforts to give us abundant life and simple accept sickness, poverty, oppression, depression, and death as the norm for the Christian life. I could further shy away from your implying that those would suffer could not be true believers.

Alas I will revert to the Word of God and walk in the light of it!

John 10:
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy:
I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it
more abundantly.

3 John 1:
2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper
and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.


Deu 28:
1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the
voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments
which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee
on high above all nations of the earth:
2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee,
if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God....
(followed by a long list of blessings)

This, admittedly, is an OT promise. But after reading this verse:

Heb 8:
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry,
by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant,
which was established upon better promises.

It is inconcievable that a better covenant built upon better promises would somehow be worse when it comes to the blessings of life.

Even these OT blessings, it would appear, belong to us:

2 Cor 1:19
(ISV) For all God's promises are "Yes" in him. And so through him
we can say "Amen," to the glory of God

In Deut 28, we also see a long list of curses to those who fail:

Deu 28:
15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken to the voice of the
Lord thy God, to observe all his commandments, as many as I charge thee
this day, then all these curses shall come on thee, and overtake thee.
16 Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.
(followed by a long list of curses...)

Jesus has redeemed us from every curse that might find it's origin in these laws:

Galatians 3:13 GW
13 Christ paid the price to free us from the curse that God's laws bring
by becoming cursed instead of us. Scripture says,
"Everyone who is hung on a tree is cursed."

Therefore all the blessings have been made yes and amen, and we have been redeemed from all the curses.

I also like 2 Peter 1:3

"seeing that his divine power has granted to us all things that
pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who
called us by his own glory and virtue;"

I cannot think of anything that this phrase "life and godliness" does not cover.
Does health pertain to life? You cannot live without it!
Ask someone who is impoverished if having their needs met pertains to life.


But what could be more clear than these verses:

Mat 21:
21 But Jesus said to them, "If you have faith and don't doubt, I promise
that you can do what I did to this tree. And you will be able to do even
more. You can tell this mountain to get up and jump into the sea, and it will.
22 If you have faith when you pray, you will be given whatever you ask for.

Mar 11:
24 For this reason I tell you: When you pray and ask for something,
believe that you have received it, and you will be given whatever you ask for.

Psa 37:
4 Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

Joh 15:
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what ever you
may desire, and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you may bear much fruit; and you will
become My disciples.

Joh 16:
23 And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you,
whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you.
24 Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive,
that your joy may be full.

There are tons more....
It all goes back to the "let it be unto you according to your faith." If you think the only way to come to God is by suffering and going through endless problems... then your will have whatever you say. You have worked out your salvation in this way. But if you rely on the finished work of Jesus, then you will reap the benefits of His love and mercy. Trust Him.. not yourself.

 

[Benedicta00]

didaskalos

What happens when you suffer and you ask God to remove your suffering and he don't, what then?

 

[Photini]

Sorry, but from your earlier post that's indeed the implication that I got. Forgive me for misunderstanding you.
I truly believe that when you ask of God in faith, that He will give what is beneficial for your salvation. In this I trust in Him, because I do not know what is beneficial for me, but only Him. This is not giving up, this is not cowardice or surrender, but to take on suffering without complaining and with much patience and long-suffering, then I am brought low and humble and have the likeness of Christ in me. God's strength is made perfect in weakness. Why then must we look on suffering, sickness, poverty, etc., only in a negative way or only as punishment, but rather as a glorious gift from God to increase in our faith and shine forth the light that is in us? When we become comfortable and soft in well health and a big bank account, then we flee and falter quickly in battle. It is then that we become cowards, because we perceive that God has left us. We become filled with doubt and despair. But if we look at these things and accept them patiently (because after all, this world is temporal), then we will be crowned in eternity. This life is only death, but in death is our Life...the more I suffer and endure now, the higher I will be raised up with Christ in His Glory. God give me the courage and humility to accept all the things that come to me, and to be crucified with You, that I may also be raised with You.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

didaskalos
What happens when you suffer and you ask God to remove your suffering and he don't, what then?

You believe the Word. You begin to thank Him from the heart that He did what He said He would do. And you never ever say in your heart that He did not do something that He said that He already did. Never again take sides with the physical realm again Him.

There is a gigantic truth that is blaring out at you my friend. It is the key to believing anything and everything. That truth is simple and direct:

"Love believes all things"

Love looks at the symptoms and says.."My God says I am healed, and He does not lie". Love believes the impossible, the improbable, the unprovable, and the undetectable. Love for God says "I know that you are, and that you have rewarded my seeking You."

With your last dying breath you praise Him that His word is true, and every man a liar. Throw yourself upon the absolute power of His word. It is not what you do. It is what the Word says. He said it. He does not lie.

Gal 5:15
(Webster) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Faith is activated by love. The greek word here is "energeo" from which we get our word energized. .Faith that is energized by love avails

I do not know your situation. But I do know that the Word of God is true. He does not lie, and we have to side with Him. We have no choice but to side with Him. Whether we are sick or well, rich or poor. The word of God is still true, and those who love Him will stand with Him till the end. That is what faithfulness is.

You might as well side with Him. What have you got to lose?

 

[Andrew]

Matthew 16:24
If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

nyj,

This is in the context of suffering persecution for being a follower of Christ, even to the extent of martyrdom.

Jesus was telling his disciples how he will be persecuted by the pharisees and eventually killed. Peter told him not to go thru that. Then Jesus rebuked him and said those words.

We do not deny that a Christian will have sufferings in terms of persecution for being a good follower of Christ, even to the extent of death (martyrdom). In fact, we are told to expect that!

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

1 Peter (or 2 Peter?) also talks about the persecutions of being a good Christian.

But these are just that, persecutions for being a good Christian. ie people (not sicknesses) persecute you when you demonstrate that you are a faithful follower of Christ. Such sufferings are to be expected as mentioned.

But it has nothing to do with suffering sickness or accidents where lives and limbs are lost.

 

[Benedicta00]

nyj,

This is in the context of suffering persecution for being a follower of Christ, even to the extent of martyrdom.

Jesus was telling his disciples how he will be persecuted by the pharisees and eventually killed. Peter told him not to go thru that. Then Jesus rebuked him and said those words.

We do not deny that a Christian will have sufferings in terms of persecution for being a good follower of Christ, even to the extent of death (martyrdom). In fact, we are told to expect that!

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

1 Peter (or 2 Peter?) also talks about the persecutions of being a good Christian.

But these are just that, persecutions for being a good Christian. ie people (not sicknesses) persecute you when you demonstrate that you are a faithful follower of Christ. Such sufferings are to be expected as mentioned.

But it has nothing to do with suffering sickness or accidents where lives and limbs are lost.

Andrew,

If you do lose a limb, what do you do next?

 

[Benedicta00]

You believe the Word. You begin to thank Him from the heart that He did what He said He would do. And you never ever say in your heart that He did not do something that He said that He already did. Never again take sides with the physical realm again Him.

There is a gigantic truth that is blaring out at you my friend. It is the key to believing anything and everything. That truth is simple and direct:

"Love believes all things"

Love looks at the symptoms and says.."My God says I am healed, and He does not lie". Love believes the impossible, the improbable, the unprovable, and the undetectable. Love for God says "I know that you are, and that you have rewarded my seeking You."

With your last dying breath you praise Him that His word is true, and every man a liar. Throw yourself upon the absolute power of His word. It is not what you do. It is what the Word says. He said it. He does not lie.

Gal 5:15
(Webster) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Faith is activated by love. The greek word here is "energeo" from which we get our word energized. .Faith that is energized by love avails

I do not know your situation. But I do know that the Word of God is true. He does not lie, and we have to side with Him. We have no choice but to side with Him. Whether we are sick or well, rich or poor. The word of God is still true, and those who love Him will stand with Him till the end. That is what faithfulness is.

You might as well side with Him. What have you got to lose?

I do side with him that is why I do not contribute any suffering that I have to the enemy.

What if you have an illness that is incurable, you ask for God to remove it and it remains?

What should a good Christian make of it?