Suffering

[Andrew]

Andrew,
If you do lose a limb, what do you do next?

You mean, say, in a car accident? Well, for sure, I will never say God did it to me to teach me something. I will know it is from the devil, for he comes to steal, kill and destroy. Well he 'stole' my leg and destroyed it, destroyed my car, caused me to lose my job, etc, etc.

Then I will prob reflect on why it happened. Then I will prob recount those times when the Spirit prompted me not to drive so fast and be so impatient, yet I refused to obey.

Then I'll tell myself there is no condemnation for the Christian and that God still loves me and will turn this around for my good.

Then I'll get on with my life. Perhaps look for a healing evangelist who has the faith to grow limbs and get a new limb. If not, then just get a prostectic (sp?) one in the time being.

I will also not say that this is part of Christian suffering that is to be expected. As I have already mentioned, Biblical suffering of the Christian has to do with persecution from others for being a good Christian. An accident does not "persecute" you, that wld be ridiculous.

What if you have an illness that is incurable, you ask for God to remove it and it remains?
What should a good Christian make of it?

even with my last breath, I will thank God and praise God that He has done it, that His Word is still true. I will know that it is my fault I didnt receive, not God's, for "let every man be a liar and God be true". Whether I receive healing or not does not change God's unchanging Word.

His truths do not depend on Andrew's personal experiences.

 

[Benedicta00]

You mean, say, in a car accident? Well, for sure, I will never say God did it to me to teach me something. I will know it is from the devil, for he comes to steal, kill and destroy. Well he 'stole' my leg and destroyed it, destroyed my car, caused me to lose my job, etc, etc.

Then I will prob reflect on why it happened. Then I will prob recount those times when the Spirit prompted me not to drive so fast and be so impatient, yet I refused to obey.

Then I'll tell myself there is no condemnation for the Christian and that God still loves me and will turn this around for my good.

Then I'll get on with my life. Perhaps look for a healing evangelist who has the faith to grow limbs and get a new limb. If not, then just get a prostectic (sp?) one in the time being.

I will also not say that this is part of Christian suffering that is to be expected. As I have already mentioned, Biblical suffering of the Christian has to do with persecution from others for being a good Christian. An accident does not "persecute" you, that wld be ridiculous.



even with my last breath, I will thank God and praise God that He has done it, that His Word is still true. I will know that it is my fault I didnt receive, not God's, for "let every man be a liar and God be true". Whether I receive healing or not does not change God's unchanging Word.

His truths do not depend on Andrew's personal experiences.

So you do not leave any of it up to providence? That in God's wisdom he allowed this to happen, not ordained it to happen but permitted for some greater good that you may not ever be able to see until you are in heaven?

Isn't that trust and faith, knowing that God is in control and he knows what he is doing even if you can't ration it?

And what?!?! do you mean, if you are not healed it is your fault? Do you have some power over your own healing? So if God wanted to heal you, you could stop him? (Oh lord, I m sounding like a Calvinist now, lol.)

It is not God's fault if you are not healed; it is just his will because he has something better in mind and to believe this takes faith and trust.

 

[Photini]

"Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." Heb 12:11


Maybe it's not so much about placing blame, but about accepting what comes to you without complaining, or wondering why, and enduring. Accept it, pray about it, and trust in God that what is beneficial for your soul and salvation will come from it by attaining the virtues that aid in our spiritual warfare.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

"Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." Heb 12:11


Maybe it's not so much about placing blame, but about accepting what comes to you without complaining, or wondering why, and enduring. Accept it, pray about it, and trust in God that what is beneficial for your soul and salvation will come from it by attaining the virtues that aid in our spiritual warfare.

So you will resign yourself to it, and then proceed to define the will and very nature of God according to the results of your faith?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I do side with him that is why I do not contribute any suffering that I have to the enemy.

What if you have an illness that is incurable, you ask for God to remove it and it remains?

First you stop siding with the illness by (throught believing) giving it the power of being "incurable." If you believe it to be incurable and assign it that power over you, then you will get what ever you believe. You will have whatever you say. Jesus said you would.
After you have asked God to remove it, you believe from that moment on that it is gone. You never call God a liar by believing it is still there. You praise and worship Him that it is gone, that He has healed you like He said He would.... and you stop taking sides with the illness.

 

[Photini]

So you will resign yourself to it, and then proceed to define the will and very nature of God according to the results of your faith?

I am only a simple struggling uneducated mother...I do not claim to have the capacity to define the will or nature of God.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I am only a simple struggling uneducated mother...I do not claim to have the capacity to define the will or nature of God.

Yet when you pray with the assumption that whatever happens (or does not happen) is the will of God for you then you leave no room for doubt or error on your part. In Mark 5, there were people who could not receive from God because of their unbelief. What if they decided that they did not receive because God did not want them healed. What if they went one step further and decided that God was not longer in the healing business, or worse, that He was the one behind their sickness to start with? God was there all along ready and willing to heal them. Yet they choose not to believe, and worse than that, rather than simply admit it was because of their own lack, they blamed God... said He was not a healing God and that He actually wanted them sick. This what I am talking about. God will give you anything you need. He is only limited by our knowledge of Him and what He has done for us. He wants us to be healthy and prosperous. But He cannot bless us if we choose to see Him as a small, powerless being who cannot or will not bless us.

Blessings to you and for your love for Him. Rest assured He loves you greatly and beyond your ability to comprehend. He is willing and ready to care for your every need.

 

[Photini]

Thank you, I am not deserving of such nice words. I understand all you said, I think we're actually believing close to the same things, just emphasizing different points. God bless you, and please remember me in your prayers.

 

[Andrew]

So you do not leave any of it up to providence?

"providence" is defined as the "kindness of fate" according to the Longman Dict. Christianity has nothing to do with fate, whether it is good or bad fate. Many religions believe in it though, esp Buddhism/Taoism. The Christian does not go around saying "I'm fated to have cancer, or he's fated to die young." What the Bible does teach though, is faith, that ALL THINGS are possible with God and to them that can believe, that ask and ye shall receive, whatsoever ye desire, when ye pray, believe ye receive, that ALL the promises of God are YES and AMEN in Christ etc. So in short, no, I dont believe in providence or fate.

That in God's wisdom he allowed this to happen, not ordained it to happen but permitted for some greater good that you may not ever be able to see until you are in heaven?

I think there's some confusion here. It is obvious God allowed it, for if he intervenes in everything, then no Christian on earth will fall sick, or get shot while pumping gas, or get blown to bits when eating at a cafe. But to say that He allowed it becos it is part of his wonderful plan for your life is simply not true. For example, when you plan your kids education, do you plan in sickness, a two-month stay at a home for delinquent kids, and accident in the school gymnasium, etc so that he can have a good education. Does it take a rocket scientist to know that the kid can still have a good education without those bad things? Nevertheless, if and when these things do happen, God can turn it around for our good. But that does not mean he planned it in in the greater scheme of things.

And what?!?! do you mean, if you are not healed it is your fault? Do you have some power over your own healing? So if God wanted to heal you, you could stop him? (Oh lord, I m sounding like a Calvinist now, lol.)

If God really came and told you Christians can fly. And you find that you can't fly, but others can. Does that mean God lied to you? Does that mean it's His fault that something isnt working right with your wings? So, between God and man, where do you think the problem lies? With God or with man? Let God be true and every man a liar. (Rom 3:4)

It is not God's fault if you are not healed;

Of cse not, as I've said above. Common sense tells us God's never at fault.

it is just his will because he has something better in mind and to believe this takes faith and trust.

that's where we differ. What is God's will here? Does God have a different will for each person? ie Yes, healing for you, No, no healing for you, Yes, healing for you and you, No, no healing for you and you and you.

Was Jesus, the exact image of God like that? Is God so wishy washy?

Read the first part of 2 Cor. In here you will learn how to tell if a particular doctrine is of the Spirit or of the flesh. Paul says that the nature of God is such that He is not a wishy-washy "Yes-Nay" God, but that all the promises of God in Christ are YES and AMEN. In other words, if God's promise regarding sickness is healing, then it is YES TO ALL, not sometimes yes, sometimes no. So you either believe God wills to heal all all the time or that he doesnt heal a single one at all.

Let me make it simple. There is either a healing promise to which anyone who believes can receive, or there is none at all. You cannot sit on the fence and say, YEah and then NAy another day.

 

[Photini]

Our immune systems are made stronger and function better when we occassionally fall ill. Where I work, I am exposed to so many sick people, and at first I was sick often, but over time my body has grown a stronger and healthier immune system because of it.

 

[Photini]

So how do you view suffering in relation to our spiritual warfare? Do you (anyone) think that the two are even at all connected? Keeping in mind that there are so many different forms of suffering.

 

[Andrew]

Our immune systems are made stronger and function better when we occassionally fall ill. Where I work, I am exposed to so many sick people, and at first I was sick often, but over time my body has grown a stronger and healthier immune system because of it.

I do not doubt that there is medical truth in this. But this is the world's way. (I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that -- there is no condemnation for falling sick or being sick)

But God has his own ways of buidling up our immune system, which does not require us to be exposed to sickness, fall sick, recover, fall sick again, recover, fall sick in order to build up our immune system. Which parent would want his child to go thru this method?

eg reading and meditating on God's Word:

Proverbs 4
20 My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings.
21 Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart.
22 For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh.

 

[Andrew]

So how do you view suffering in relation to our spiritual warfare? Do you (anyone) think that the two are even at all connected? Keeping in mind that there are so many different forms of suffering.

The fact that it is spiritual warfare (ie the enemy is the devil and his cohorts, not flesh and blood), means that it comes from the devil, not God.

So even if you wanna talk about sickness here, then logically, sickness is from the devil, not God, which is what I've been trying to say here. Many people still think the "enemy" is God.

 

[Photini]

Proverbs 4
20 My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings.
21 Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart.
22 For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh.

This is a truly beautiful verse! Thank you. (I'm quietly connecting this with the relics of our saints whose flesh even after their spirit departs, does not see decay....eh hem.)

I agree...I do not see that disease or sickness is from God. Most trials and tribulations we suffer through, be they sickness or despondancy, etc., are temptations from our Enemy to discourage us and cause us to despair and lose faith.

What do you (anyone?) think of those who voluntarily give their self to the life of struggle (monasticism)? I've heard that there is some monasticism starting up within Protestantism. This is actually the kind of "suffering" that I've had in mind during my posting....not so much sicknesses or certain hardships.....

 

[AdamWeeden]

Probably the best understanding of biblical suffering can be garnered from the book of Job. I suggest you should read it.

 

[Andrew]

What do you (anyone?) think of those who voluntarily give their self to the life of struggle (monasticism)? I've heard that there is some monasticism starting up within Protestantism. This is actually the kind of "suffering" that I've had in mind during my posting....not so much sicknesses or certain hardships.....

I dont think you would like to hear what I have to say about such "suffering". In my church we call it self-righteousness, and any form of self-righteousness actually 'insults' the blood and work of Christ.

Let me explain: We believe that most people (perhaps not you) who "give their self to the life of struggle" do so to become more holy, more righteous, more right with God, more sanctified or more close to God.

These things, we believe, cannot be achieved by human effort, no matter how sincere. Only the blood of Christ and his finished work (hence no need to 'add' to it) can accomplish this.

IOW, once a person is born-again into the family of God, he is given the gift of righteousness, which is the very righteousness of Jesus himself. This is a gift and cannot be earned, but simply received by faith.

I hope you understnd what I'm trying to say here and dont take it the wrong way. In short, there is no need for you to go to some mountain or cave to lead a secluded life of bare necessities in order to get closer to God or more righteous.

Perhaps you wld like to explain why you intend to do so and what you hope to achieve.

 

[Photini]

I dont think you would like to hear what I have to say about such "suffering". In my church we call it self-righteousness, and any form of self-righteousness actually 'insults' the blood and work of Christ.

Let me explain: We believe that most people (perhaps not you) who "give their self to the life of struggle" do so to become more holy, more righteous, more right with God, more sanctified or more close to God.

These things, we believe, cannot be achieved by human effort, no matter how sincere. Only the blood of Christ and his finished work (hence no need to 'add' to it) can accomplish this.

IOW, once a person is born-again into the family of God, he is given the gift of righteousness, which is the very righteousness of Jesus himself. This is a gift and cannot be earned, but simply received by faith.

I hope you understnd what I'm trying to say here and dont take it the wrong way. In short, there is no need for you to go to some mountain or cave to lead a secluded life of bare necessities in order to get closer to God or more righteous.

Perhaps you wld like to explain why you intend to do so and what you hope to achieve.

I believe anyone who leaves "the world" with the intentions that you set forth here, will most likely fail and become a mockery of demons in the life of monasticism. You are very right. However, I do not think most monastics set out for these kinds of reasons. The first time I met a monk, the thing that struck me the most, was how extremely humble he was.

I will try my best to explain some things, though I need some time, because this is something which is laid very close to my heart. I don't want to seem like some rambling fool...because I could really spend hours and days on this subject. So bear with me a bit, and let me get it together.

 

[Andrew]

Sure no problem. But one question i have now is that Jesus gave us the great commission to go witness to the ends of the earth. Time is also short as he is returning soon. In short, with so much left to do before the Master returns, can one afford to just be secluded on an island or mountain and lead a life cut off from the world?

 

[Photini]

Sure no problem. But one question i have now is that Jesus gave us the great commission to go witness to the ends of the earth. Time is also short as he is returning soon. In short, with so much left to do before the Master returns, can one afford to just be secluded on an island or mountain and lead a life cut off from the world?

!! I thought you forgot bout me...

i will try to answer this question the best I can...probably later on tonight.

 

[Benedicta00]

Sure no problem. But one question i have now is that Jesus gave us the great commission to go witness to the ends of the earth. Time is also short as he is returning soon. In short, with so much left to do before the Master returns, can one afford to just be secluded on an island or mountain and lead a life cut off from the world?

Yes they can because their self sacrifice, their life devoted to praying for poor sinners draws down much grace from God for them. It pleases God and holds back his wrath.