Subtle but effective

[Desk trauma]

That has nothing to do with the fact we didn't need one between the US and Canada until recently.

13 years ago is recently?

 

[Belk]

An app is required to enter Canada from the US now let alone a passport which was never needed before either.

No it is not. I went to Canada two months ago, no app required.

 

[timothyu]

No it is not. I went to Canada two months ago, no app required.

There is for us. Go figure

 

[Belk]

There is for us. Go figure

No one without a smart phone is able to travel?

 

[timothyu]

No one without a smart phone is able to travel?

Basically unless you want to lug around a computer or have access somewhere 72 hrs ahead.

 

[Belk]

Basically unless you want to lug around a computer or have access somewhere 72 hrs ahead.

That does not sound realistic.

 

[The happy Objectivist]

The great majority of people in many countries agree with that - and consider that the actions taken by governments in response to COVID outbreaks in their countries were in their best interests. Without the restrictions the pandemic would, in most people's opinion, have been worse.

All the democratic countries in the world which imposed COVID related restrictions on their populations have subsequently removed them in a timely fashion. Even China, which has imposed the most stringent restrictions, has removed them when it considered it to be safe to do so. And with obvious good reason - such restrictions are bad for their economies.

All this malarkey about evil governments stealing our liberties is just silly.

So, the fact that many people agree is irrelevant when we're talking about principles. A whole lot of the Germans agreed with killing the Jews. I'm not going to try and convince you that some in government want to take away your freedom because it will be clear and irrefutable very soon. Yes, there are many people who are perfectly willing to have their freedoms abridged in order to obtain some perceived benefit. Many are perfectly happy for the government to take money from those who earned it and give it to those who didn't. Doesn't make it right.

I suppose you have no problem with the weaponization of the FBI against political opponents either. Will you "own nothing and be happy"? Will you be alright with a digital currency controlled by them? Are you OK with a Chinese-style social credit system? These are serious questions because all of these things are real.

 

[Whyayeman]

So, the fact that many people agree is irrelevant when we're talking about principles. A whole lot of the Germans agreed with killing the Jews. I'm not going to try and convince you that some in government want to take away your freedom because it will be clear and irrefutable very soon. Yes, there are many people who are perfectly willing to have their freedoms abridged in order to obtain some perceived benefit. Many are perfectly happy for the government to take money from those who earned it and give it to those who didn't. Doesn't make it right.

I suppose you have no problem with the weaponization of the FBI against political opponents either. Will you "own nothing and be happy"? Will you be alright with a digital currency controlled by them? Are you OK with a Chinese-style social credit system? These are serious questions because all of these things are real.

Ah, principles! If there is a principle to justify the COVID restrictions it can be found in the utilitarianism of Dewar and Jeremy Bentham. Its roots will be in Epicurus, I suppose. I believe that the restrictions were pragmatic. Lives were undoubtedly saved and suffering reduced. The cost was a temporary loss of liberty, now fully restored.

In Britain the population endured numerous deprivations including conscription, the blackout, food and petrol rationing - all real assaults on personal liberty. The lesson to be taken from this is that limits on personal freedom are sometimes necessary for the greater good. The guide must be a sense of shared struggle; this sense was apparent during the War and equally during the darkest days of the pandemic. There was also a realistic expectation that the restrictions would be lifted when their necessity had reduced; this happened in every democracy I can think of.

There is no principle worth anything which sets individual liberty above all.

 

[FireDragon76]

I have lost faith in most of my fellow Americans, and consider them as heathens.

 

[Whyayeman]

I have lost faith in most of my fellow Americans, and consider them as heathens.

It is not the heathens you should be worrying about.

I am a heathen, and I pose no threat! Here is a good definition of a modern heathen. I invite you to check whether there are so many Americans that fit the definition and to see how dangerous we are!

 

[Tinker Grey]

It is not the heathens you should be worrying about.

I am a heathen, and I pose no threat! Here is a good definition of a modern heathen. I invite you to check whether there are so many Americans that fit the definition and to see how dangerous we are!

You forgot the definition.

 

[FireDragon76]

It is not the heathens you should be worrying about.

I am a heathen, and I pose no threat! Here is a good definition of a modern heathen. I invite you to check whether there are so many Americans that fit the definition and to see how dangerous we are!

You aren't an American.

Heathen has the connotation in the US of somebody barbaric and uncultured.

 

[Whyayeman]

You aren't an American.

Heathen has the connotation in the US of somebody barbaric and uncultured.

Ah, yes! As Churchill put it: two nations divided by a common language.

From the introduction of The Heathen Manifesto by Julian Baggini, an English philosopher:

Heathens are not merely unbelievers: we believe many things too. Most importantly, we believe in naturalism: the natural world is all there is and there is no purposive, conscious agency that created or guides it. This natural world may contain many mysteries and even unseen dimensions, but we have no reason to believe that they are anything like the heavens, spirit worlds and deities that have characterised supernatural religious beliefs over history.​

That is what I meant - nothing barbaric or uncultured here, as you have so perspicaciously observed!

 

[Whyayeman]

You forgot the definition.

Woops!

I was looking for Julian Baggini's definition and then got sidetracked. See#53 above.

Here is a bit more of the same:

Our first commitment is to the truth

... a commitment to see the world as truthfully as we can, using our rational faculties as best we can, based on the best evidence we have. That is where our primary commitment lies, not the conclusions we reach. Hence we are prepared to accept the possibility that we are wrong. It also means that we respect and have much in common with people who come to very different conclusions but have an equal respect for truth, reason and evidence. A heathen has more in common with a sincere, rational, religious truth-seeker than an atheist whose lack of belief is unquestioned, or has become unquestionable.

See how the last sentence separates Baggini (and many other atheist, including me) from the militant atheists in the same camp as Richard Dawkins.

 

[gaara4158]

Over the last 2.5 years little has changed in my life. I did not miss the bars, theatres, and public social interaction. Wearing a mask at the local grocer was no setback. I was not isolated and went about my routine of travelling around my native area exploring and taking photos, which is a solitary endeavour anyway.

However, my question is... how many of you, especially if barely inconvenienced, have felt you have still subtly been brainwashed into being wary of fellow man and the old freedoms we took for granted all our lives. Are you as comfortable as you once were in going about your daily life or has something been taken away?

I feel that I have lost nothing and gained quite a bit. Food and certain retail services now offer contactless delivery options, which is wonderful. I just got a cold for the first time in 3 years this week, which I attribute to the ubiquity of masks in public until recently. Work from home infrastructure has been developed by necessity, which helps to lighten traffic for those of us who work on-site. People in public now make a conscious effort to keep their distance from one another, which is another boon both for my health and my preference not to be subjected to other people’s body odors. Things are simply better now in a handful of ways and I find it baffling that some people feel a sense of loss with these changes.

 

[Paidiske]

Just wondering if anyone has been noticing things are not as free and easy psychologically as before.

If I notice anything, it's that people are tired. Our personal resources have been stretched beyond reason and our resilience has been exhausted. Creative thinking, new initiatives and anything out of the normal routine are too hard. I see it in my community and I see it in myself.

I don't think this amounts to anything intentional on anyone's part - I think governments etc. have been doing their best (not always doing well) in unprecedented and trying circumstances - but it does beg questions of how we recover, and where to from here.

As to whether I've gained or lost over the pandemic, for me personally it's been a bit of both. Overall I do feel that I've lost through restriction of opportunities, at least.

 

[Whyayeman]

Just when we thought it is all over, my grandson has tested positive for Covid this morning. The whole family, aunts and uncles cousins and grandparents, were together for a birthday party so we are all exposed.

As far as I can tell, nobody has gained anything worth having, but the idea expressed in the OP that there was an element of control in government's efforts to restrict the pandemic is absurd and wicked.

 

[Astrid]

I have lost faith in most of my fellow Americans, and consider them as heathens.

Sounds like you is the one with a prob.

 

[Astrid]

If I notice anything, it's that people are tired. Our personal resources have been stretched beyond reason and our resilience has been exhausted. Creative thinking, new initiatives and anything out of the normal routine are too hard. I see it in my community and I see it in myself.

I don't think this amounts to anything intentional on anyone's part - I think governments etc. have been doing their best (not always doing well) in unprecedented and trying circumstances - but it does beg questions of how we recover, and where to from here.

As to whether I've gained or lost over the pandemic, for me personally it's been a bit of both. Overall I do feel that I've lost through restriction of opportunities, at least.

Here in China we are not exhausted or strained beyond
whatever.
But then we've been through privation, war, turmoil, invasion
and disaster so far beyond anything ever experienced
in the USA, Canada, Oz, we would have to be a tough resilient
people just to survive.

 

[Paidiske]

How have the pandemic and government measures to control it impacted you personally, if I can ask, @Estrid?