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Lulav,
I don't think that it is easy to make headway with someone who clearly (me included) believe that Paul's writings are inspired. I'll start there and continue to say that I don't think that they (Paul's writings) are in contrast to Yahushua's teaching.
For instance, I don't believe that those who rely on observance of Torah have Salvation. Those who rely on Grace do. It does not mean that we should not observe Torah. I'm very happy with Galations and I do not think that Paul was/is anti-Torah.
We are told that if we love Him we will keep His commandments. The scripture in Galations tells us that we cannot gain salvation from keeping commandments.
Torah was NEVER meant/designed/created to save. And if you rely on it to save you, you are under it's curse, condemnation to death because of the lack of grace that enables you to obey/observe.
Yeshua taught to receive eternal life was to follow Torah. To walk in the way that his Father said to walk. And the only thing to add to that, in this case it was because he was rich, was to seel his riches and give to the poor, which is mercy. As you can see he only mentions the 5 commandments in this case that are related to loving your neighbor. The first 5 which have to do with Loving G-d he does not mention, except saying, 'You know the commandments'.Version from Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way , there came one running , and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery , Do not kill , Do not steal , Do not bear false witness , Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother...............................
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest : go thy way , sell whatsoever thou hast , and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven
Quoting from HosheaBut go ye and learn what that meaneth , I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous ( those with mercy, loving their neighbors), but sinners (the unmerciful) to repentance.
It is better to have mercy than to sin against G-d and neighbor and have to offer sacrifice. And to know G-ds heart and how he wants us to walk than to just bring him a burnt offering. Obedience instead of gifting. This shows more love.For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Amen!! Lulav
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
And 'iniquity' here is 'anomia' which means lawlessness. Without Torah.For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Any changes has been towards a stronger conviction than before that it is more imperative that I learn the Ways of God through Holy Spirit ... God's Mount Sinai sermon along with Yeshua's Mount of Olives message.. may my life reflect more of Him than before.
Romans 11 does not say that Gentiles are to keep the 613 mitzvot of the Torah (and the Torah is one). It says that Gentiles are grafted into the promises and blessings of faithful Israel. In clearer words, Rom 11 does not overthrow the clear, sane and Hebraic teaching of Galatians, Colossians or the previous chapters of Romans.
Have you never seen an ingrafted tree? The branches do not morph into the same species. They remain distinct yet they grow together. Our friend SGM4HIM once posted a beautiful picture of one for us....go and seek it in the archive.
...............
...........Peter said of the Law and forcing Gentiles to keep it: "Now therefore why do you tempt God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples, a yoke which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" (Acts 15:10)
So, the real problem here is that you see the Torah as way easy, and Peter the Apostle who actually knew Jesus was misguided.
The reason you come to such conclusions is because you have never been under the Law personally. Peter was.
Can I suggest you check out- Ed Dobson
That guy tried it out.
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Yes, keeping the Torah can be a joyous thing (except for the killing animals and stoning people to death bits and other portions that we don't need to point out to make our illustration clearer) but is not knowing Jesus and having the fullness of the Holy Spirit in your life far more joyous? Is not this the "peace which passeth all understanding"? You don't get more of Jesus by keeping the Torah. The power of the Holy Spirit will strengthen you to keep the Law of Christ, and you don't get the Holy Spirit by the works of the Law. What gets you to Heaven- observing days, seasons and wearing tzitzis or being crucified with Christ, putting to death the old man of sin and living a life of love of God and neighbour?
I appreciate your love for the Torah- I share it. But I know that it is easy for some Christians to fall into a Torah-focused idolatry, or even an idolatry of all things Jewish. But when we meet Jesus that's all we want- more of Him, less of us.
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It is more likely a pseudepigraphic book that has had that verse interpolated. Some also believe that it was in fact written by Paul by the style of the letter.It is true that more modern scholars deny the genuineness of II Peter than that of any single book in the canon. This is done by men like F. H. Chase, J. B. Mayor, and R. D. Strachan, who are followers of Christ as Lord and Saviour.
Personally, I have to disagree there, sir. The passage is talking about adult circumcison. God never required it. Otherwise, what's the point of the 8th day? Why did Paul circumcise Timothy and not Titus? Because Timothy should have been because he was born a Hebrew but was not. Titus was a Gentile who'd come to the faith. Titus' kids would've had to have been but no adult who was not born a Hebrew was ever required to be circumcised. If one chooses to, that's a free will offering.
'Walk in love', this is what Yeshua taught, however though it may seem that Paul taught the same thing, it is easy to see that he taught this 'love' without the walk.
'Walk' in Hebrew idiom means to follow the right path, to walk in the way the L-RD says to. e.g., to keep the commandments.
All Yeshua 'added' was to keep them not out of obligation, but out of love and the love in turn would bring about the mercy that HaShem wanted from us in the first place.
Peter supportive of Paul?
It is more likely a pseudepigraphic book that has had that verse interpolated. Some also believe that it was in fact written by Paul by the style of the letter.
When you compare the letters of Paul with the book of acts you will see there are even disputations there. The book of acts seems to want to present a unity between the Jerusalem church and Paul's teachings but by Paul's own letters we can see that isn't so.
As far as James when you read this epistle, after reading Paul's you can see where this is more of a refutation of what Paul was teaching rather than an agreement or worst yet, an endorsement.
One must wonder where "walk" as Paul discussed it differs from what the apostles taught--including James and John, as well as Peter and Paul? The same issue Paul notes was mentioned in I Peter as well ...and on the subject, commandments change over time. There is a clear precendent in scripture for that---and thus, saying that one's to follow the commandments isn't complete if avoiding where the scriptures note that the commandments are to be different in differing eras.'Walk in love', this is what Yeshua taught, however though it may seem that Paul taught the same thing, it is easy to see that he taught this 'love' without the walk.
'Walk' in Hebrew idiom means to follow the right path, to walk in the way the L-RD says to. e.g., to keep the commandments.
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It'd seem valid when other scholars note that what Jesus brought them to was a new destination that the Mosaic code was never meant to take them to. For it was given temporarily to illustrate a point--and his focusing on love was to show the entire purpose of the Torah...with his emphasis being a new starting point for what the Lord desired..All Yeshua 'added' was to keep them not out of obligation, but out of love and the love in turn would bring about the mercy that HaShem wanted from us in the first place.
There are many difficulties that I Peter, alongside II Peter, have that are not easily renconciled....though some scholars also believe, counter to those disbeleving, that there's not much evidence for saying that work is pseudepigraphic anymore than James and other books people love. There's an actually an article on the issue that seemed to be very solid in review in Peter Kruger of The Authenticity of 2 Peter---and another by Wayne Stiles that can be found under the name of Is 2 Peter Peter’s? | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site . Others are of the mindset that the external evidence, while not proving authenticity, neither disproves it....Peter supportive of Paul?
It is more likely a pseudepigraphic book that has had that verse interpolated. Some also believe that it was in fact written by Paul by the style of the letter.
It is interesting to see what often occurs when one compares Paul with Acts--for there're many who've sought to do so/felt that Paul was at odds with the book, whereas others have done the same...and though feeling that way, went back again/realized that much of what he noted was indeed spot on. Many scholars have often noted that much of it that is considered to be disputations are often mischaracterized or singled out from the rest of the text uncessarily.When you compare the letters of Paul with the book of acts you will see there are even disputations there.
There are others who've often noted that Paul's letters are often very much in line with the Book of Acts--though even with that, there are people noting how one would have to stretch very hard to show Paul was somehow inconsistent with the Book of Acts anymore than other apostles who echoed the same.The book of acts seems to want to present a unity between the Jerusalem church and Paul's teachings but by Paul's own letters we can see that isn't so.
It often seems that many pit James against Paul as if they weren't on the same page---though what often occurred was that they simply were on differing sides of the same coin...and with differing focuses. There are many things James has said that go directly in line with what Paul/Jesus noted---and many Jewish scholars who've noted the same. Many times, it can be the case that one can read error into the letters of Paul where there is none...and that can be damaging if one looks for a problem that's non-existent.As far as James when you read this epistle, after reading Paul's you can see where this is more of a refutation of what Paul was teaching rather than an agreement or worst yet, an endorsement
If I may ask, what specific fellowship do you attend?Some use Galatians to attack Messianic observance of Torah, but there's just nothing in it that aids this attack. I'm observant and love Galatians.
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The passage concerning Moses doing his two sons, God was ready to kill Moses because he hadn't. His wife was quite replused by it and said unto Moses, 'A bloody husband art thou unto me!' Even today, most folks consider it a 'mutilation'! I mean, for an older kid, I can understand but for an 8 year old baby? What memory does a babe of that age have of it?
amenI understand you respect the man, but his analogy is flawed and his assertion that the Galatians once observed Torah before they turned to Messiah is mistaken.
One's teacher teaches one how to live (in this example), should you then ignore what you are taught? The analogy falls down very quickly. In the context of the rest of scripture, even further.
Stating that 4:9 is about Torah is nothing less than absurd. In the same way that saying that 4:10 points to the observance of the Hebrew feasts. It's just not true, a complete fabrication. If you look at 4:3 you'll see what he (author of Galatians) was talking about, this is the simplest rule of interpretation, context.
Some use Galatians to attack Messianic observance of Torah, but there's just nothing in it that aids this attack. I'm observant and love Galatians.
Be careful.
The author of the thread is doing really good, by the way..Submitting Torah Observance To New Covenant Principles
Subscribing
AmenNew Perspectives on Paul originated outside the Messianic movement.
They have not 'spun' Paul into a Torah observant Jew; they have UNSPUN the Christian view that he abandoned the Torah. Paul is clear that he had never spoken against the Law and the Temple.
When accused of doing just that, he submitted to instructions from James to prove he had NOT.
I agreeEasy G (G²);58437170 said:The author of the thread is doing really good, by the way..
<snip OP>
We should question Torah Observant Messianic Jewish doctrine seriously by first concentrating on the teachings in the epistles to the Hebrews, Romans and Galatians.
Above all the other apostles, Paul was given the divine task of proclaiming the principles of the New Covenant to Jew and Gentile believer alike. Let us endeavor to take His new revelation to heart. The "Messianic Literary Corner" has published a study series entitled "Submitting Torah Observance To New Covenant Principles" to discuss this very important doctrinal topic.
Peter was given the commission to take the message to the gentiles. Was he pushed aside by God for Paul to take over?Above all the other apostles, Paul was given the divine task of proclaiming the principles of the New Covenant to Jew and Gentile believer alike. Let us endeavor to take His new revelation to heart.
Peter was given the commission to take the message to the gentiles. Was he pushed aside by God for Paul to take over?
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