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Submitting Torah Observance To New Covenant Principles

David Ben Yosef

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There is only one Gospel whose power and gracious freedom overcomes sin and death throughout the world. But if the Gospel's freedom is suppressed for the sake of upholding the Law (Torah), then those that put Torah above the Gospel must abandon the contradictory elements of their theology and submit their Torah observance to New Covenant principles.
I think your seriously confused. The Torah [what you called "Law"] IS the perfect Torah of liberty...

(James 1:25 Complete Jewish Bible)
But if a person looks closely into the perfect Torah, which gives freedom, and continues, becoming not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work it requires, then he will be blessed in what he does.

What you call "The Law of Christ" IS the Torah, and the Gospel IS the Torah. They are not two seperate things at all. They are one in the same. Therefore, your conclusions are inevitably unscriptural. ;)


Shalom
 
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David Ben Yosef

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Peter said of the Law and forcing Gentiles to keep it: "Now therefore why do you tempt God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples, a yoke which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" (Acts 15:10)
Kefa is NOT referring to the Torah in that verse, CM. He is referring to the unbearable persecution the Jews had to endure. If the Goyim underwent ritual circumcision, they would have been identified by the surrounding community as Jewish, and as such, would have been persecuted as Jews. They would have been placed under the ficus judaicus tax, and other such things. The Torah is never considered as an unbearable yoke anywhere in Scripture. That's a common false presupposition.

Obeying Torah is freedom.
not scriptural
Actually, it IS Scriptural, and your interpretation that the Torah is an unbearable yoke is unscriptural:

(Psalms 119:41-50 Complete Jewish Bible)
May your grace come to me, ADONAI, your salvation, as you promised; then I will have an answer for those who taunt me; for I trust in your word. Don't take away completely my power to speak the truth; for I put my hope in your rulings; and I will keep your Torah always, forever and ever. I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought your precepts. I will speak of your instructions even to kings without being ashamed. I will delight myself in your mitzvot, which I have loved. I will lift my hands to your mitzvot, which I love; and I will meditate on your Torah. Remember your promise to your servant, through which you have given me hope. In my distress my comfort is this: that your promise gives me life.

(James 1:25 Complete Jewish Bible)
But if a person looks closely into the perfect Torah, which gives freedom, and continues, becoming not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work it requires, then he will be blessed in what he does.
I appreciate your love for the Torah- I share it. But I know that it is easy for some Christians to fall into a Torah-focused idolatry, or even an idolatry of all things Jewish. But when we meet Jesus that's all we want- more of Him, less of us.
And the Bible tells us that Yeshua is the Torah become flesh, so I pray that you actually meet the real Yeshua one day. Not the false Jesus of your Protestant denomination. No offense, Bro.

Trust me when I tell you that I keep the portions of Torah that don't get in the way of grace, but not for salvation, but for reasons that are too personal to share on this forum.
Hmmm, that explains a lot.



Shalom
 
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TanteBelle

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There is only one Gospel whose power and gracious freedom overcomes sin and death throughout the world. But if the Gospel's freedom is suppressed for the sake of upholding the Law (Torah), then those that put Torah above the Gospel must abandon the contradictory elements of their theology and submit their Torah observance to New Covenant principles. This does not mandate the banning of Torah observance; however, it does restrict Torah observance to that of "non-obligatory" compliance in Messianic Jewish worship and daily practice.

In Messianic congregations in the USA and abroad, doctrinal error due to explicit Torah observance appears to be wide spread. One must ask; Is it that hard to determine error from correct doctrine? What initially appeared to be a clear-cut issue of historical inaccuracy and miss-interpretation of Scripture twenty years ago, today appears to be a mute point among most Messianic brethren. Why so? Some of this lack of interest in historical and biblical accuracy is due to the human tendency to accept only the interpretation of scripture that fits one's doctrinal stand, no matter how absurd it may be. The other tendency is to believe false doctrine simply because it has not been rejected yet by its constituency. In either case, the reasons for accepting such doctrine are weak indeed.

In the 1980s some Messianic Jewish teachers came up with the idea that they could reshape Messianic believers perception of the "Gospel of Grace" and "Torah Observance" by simply re-inventing the persona of the Apostle Paul into the "Torah Observant "Rabbi Shaul", all accepting of modern Messianic Jewish thought. In doing so, they had to develop an approach that would disregard the accurate history of Paul in his evolution from "Saul of Tarsus" persecutor of the Church in Israel and the Diaspora, to "the Apostle Paul", church founder, teacher and evangelist to both Jew and Gentile alike. They would have to sell to their flock the idea that Paul remained Torah observant, even while ministering to the Gentiles in the Greco/Roman provinces of Asia Minor. They also had to assert that the proselytes of Rav Shaul were Torah observant. The task of selling this "spin" was simple for most of the devoted believers within the Messianic Jewish movement, but much less so for those educated in Church history and New Covenant teachings. Was this error one of confusion or design on the part of some Messianic leaders? I am sure we will know one day.

To be more specific, in the mid-90’s David Stern’s revolutionary book , "The Messianic Jewish Manifesto" started turning belief towards strict Torah Observance. I believe that Stern’s intent was that of dismantling the "Pauline" teachings of Grace, to revert back to the Law. He and other supportive Messianic Jews resented the teachings of Grace having supremacy over Torah. He therefore intentionally rebelled against New Covenant doctrine believing that Jews would not accept any Gospel except one that was totally Torah observant. In doing this, he and other supportive teachers adopted a dangerously heretical course. Strict Torah observance has now become the standard in much of the Messianic Jewish movement. Stern's book adopts a "Social Darwinist" form of deception by promoting an erroneous historical portrait of Paul to conform to his religious and social agenda. Social Darwinists justify promoting the "big lie" if it serves to promote the continuity of their social cause. It may have been a 'Freudian slip" when Stern used the term "manifesto" in his revolutionary book. Stern's use of Marx missed the Biblical mark!

There are also erroneous motivations underlying Torah Observant Messianic Jewish believer's acceptance of either the "Rav Shaul" or "Heretic Paul" historical scenarios. If you read between the lines in some of their statements, you will find that Torah Observant Messianic believers who know their history only give "lip service" supporting "Rav Shaul", and are actually Anti-Paul and consider his teachings heretical. In the USA, most Anti-Pauline Messianic Jewish believers hide behind the "Rav Shaul' history nonsense. In Israel though, most Anti-Paul MJs do not hide their sentiments concerning their oppostion to Pauline doctrine. Most Messianic Jews that support the Rav Shaul or Heretic Paul historical scenario, do so for the sake of what they perceive to be a necessity. They truly believe that only by holding to an erroneous viewpoint that supports obligatory Torah Observance will they successfully evangelize the Jewish people.

We should question Torah Observant Messianic Jewish doctrine seriously by first concentrating on the teachings in the epistles to the Hebrews, Romans and Galatians. Above all the other apostles, Paul was given the divine task of proclaiming the principles of the New Covenant to Jew and Gentile believer alike. Let us endeavor to take His new revelation to heart. The "Messianic Literary Corner" has published a study series entitled "Submitting Torah Observance To New Covenant Principles" to discuss this very important doctrinal topic.

Personally, I don't know why Messianics and even Christians for that matter have such a problem reconciling Paul's writings with torah. They go hand in hand. And thank God we have the statements made by James and Peter and even by Paul himself that yes, he was torah observant and taught torah!

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Acts 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the torah.

Acts 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.

Acts 24:19 Who ought to have been here before thee, and object, if they had ought against me.

20 Or else let these same here say, if they have found any evil doing in me, while I stood before the council, 21 Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day.

Personally, I believe the italicized to mean 'touching the resurrection of the One who was dead (Yeshua)'. They can't have been against him believing in the resurrection of the dead because the Pharisees believe that as well! But if Paul was preaching, teaching, and doing that which is against torah, they would have had something against him! They would've stoned him on the spot just as they did Steven! But Peter says of Paul's writings


2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
 
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TanteBelle

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Kefa is NOT referring to the Torah in that verse, CM. He is referring to the unbearable persecution the Jews had to endure. If the Goyim underwent ritual circumcision, they would have been identified by the surrounding community as Jewish, and as such, would have been persecuted as Jews. They would have been placed under the ficus judaicus tax, and other such things. The Torah is never considered as an unbearable yoke anywhere in Scripture. That's a common false presupposition.

Personally, I have to disagree there, sir. The passage is talking about adult circumcison. God never required it. Otherwise, what's the point of the 8th day? Why did Paul circumcise Timothy and not Titus? Because Timothy should have been because he was born a Hebrew but was not. Titus was a Gentile who'd come to the faith. Titus' kids would've had to have been but no adult who was not born a Hebrew was ever required to be circumcised. If one chooses to, that's a free will offering.
 
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visionary

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Personally, I have to disagree there, sir. The passage is talking about adult circumcison. God never required it. Otherwise, what's the point of the 8th day? Why did Paul circumcise Timothy and not Titus? Because Timothy should have been because he was born a Hebrew but was not. Titus was a Gentile who'd come to the faith. Titus' kids would've had to have been but no adult who was not born a Hebrew was ever required to be circumcised. If one chooses to, that's a free will offering.
Jos 5:2 At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time. ......4 And this [is] the cause why Joshua did circumcise: All the people that came out of Egypt, [that were] males, [even] all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt.

Another example of Adult circumcision.. Did not Moses' wife get after him for not taking care of his boy's circumcision?
 
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David Ben Yosef

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Personally, I have to disagree there, sir. The passage is talking about adult circumcison.
Circumcision is an unbearable yoke? LOL

Okie dokie. ;)

I'm pretty sure the consequences of being circumcised, and henceforth being identified as Jewish are MUCH more unbearable than the physical act of circumcision itself.
 
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TanteBelle

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Jos 5:2 At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time. ......4 And this [is] the cause why Joshua did circumcise: All the people that came out of Egypt, [that were] males, [even] all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt.

Another example of Adult circumcision.. Did not Moses' wife get after him for not taking care of his boy's circumcision?

Joshua 5:5 Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.


7And their children, whom he raised up in their stead, them Joshua circumcised: for they were uncircumcised, because they had not circumcised them by the way.

To me, that means that they should have been but weren't just as Timothy should have been but wasn't.

The passage concerning Moses doing his two sons, God was ready to kill Moses because he hadn't. His wife was quite replused by it and said unto Moses, 'A bloody husband art thou unto me!' Even today, most folks consider it a 'mutilation'! I mean, for an older kid, I can understand but for an 8 year old baby? What memory does a babe of that age have of it?
Circumcision is an unbearable yoke? LOL

Okie dokie. ;)

I'm pretty sure the consequences of being circumcised, and henceforth being identified as Jewish are MUCH more unbearable than the physical act of circumcision itself.

I can't speak in that regards, obviously I'm not a bloke but all the blokes in my family sure think it'd be unbearable! LOL! But to believe that God has one law for the Jew and one for the Gentile is to believe that God is in fact a respector of persons.
 
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David Ben Yosef

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I can't speak in that regards, obviously I'm not a bloke but all the blokes in my family sure think it'd be unbearable! LOL! But to believe that God has one law for the Jew and one for the Gentile is to believe that God is in fact a respector of persons.
I would never suggest such a thing. The Torah is clear that there is one Torah/Law for the native born, as well as the sojourner among them.

Sha'ul made a clear distinction between Bris Milah, and the ritual circumcision of the Shammaite Pharisees. Big difference. Many do not catch that though, being ignorant of Judiac history, and the inner turmoil between the two schools of thought [Shammai & Hillel] which is the major theme of the entire book of Acts.

After hearing every interpretation under the sun concerning this passage, the interpretation I gave is the only one that really makes sense, as the unbearable yoke [being persecuted as a Jew]. It certainly wasn't just the act of circumcision, nor was it the Torah itself [HaShem forbid!]. ;)



Shalom
 
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chetermezacha

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I would never suggest such a thing. The Torah is clear that there is one Torah/Law for the native born, as well as the sojourner among them.

Sha'ul made a clear distinction between Bris Milah, and the ritual circumcision of the Shammaite Pharisees. Big difference. Many do not catch that though, being ignorant of Judiac history, and the inner turmoil between the two schools of thought [Shammai & Hillel] which is the major theme of the entire book of Acts.

After hearing every interpretation under the sun concerning this passage, the interpretation I gave is the only one that really makes sense, as the unbearable yoke [being persecuted as a Jew]. It certainly wasn't just the act of circumcision, nor was it the Torah itself [HaShem forbid!]. ;)

Shalom

This is the right understanding of Paul. People seem to personify Paul as a bald headed, huge American sized man shouting loudly and condemning the Torah, when he was, most likely, a quiet, well respected short old man with a white beard like old whiskers:) The class mate and rival of the one that created contemporary Judaism at Yavne.

I think people need to remember that this time was only a very short while after the Maccabees and during that time the Greeks said that Torah was slavery and Jews needed to be 'free' of the Torah, so they enforced this anti-Torah philosophy like the Catholics did later on (and the protestants even later than they). It has always been the method of the fallen kingdom, to attempt to subvert Torah in every generation while the faithful hold onto it from generation to generation. There is only one difference between the Covenant of Moshe and the Covenant of the Messiah, one was between a nation and the boss, so that punishment was at a national level, while the Covenant of the Messiah was a national and an individualistic one, this was why Jeshua said, 'this is my blood poured for you....I shall no longer drink the wine until the kingdom of my father comes,' echoing the individual notion of the Nazarite vow taken with the advent of that covenant.

Torah is nothing to do with the covenants, the covenant was the 'I will be your G-d and you will be my people,' so even when Israel broke the Torah that covenant was still binding...the Torah was not the covenant but the regulations of Heaven, the way of heaven and those who are friends of G-d, or his people, should know and follow those things. Added to this that Moshe was not the first to issue the Torah, he merely reminded the people what they had forgotten, through years of integration into a religious system that was an echo of a former glory, indeed, the doctrine of Egypt was heavily influenced by Hebrew tradition, but a corrupted way...because when Joseph ruled that Empire his influenced was not limited to the economic system but he taught them righteous ways...ways that became corrupted after he died. How this was a similar pattern to what happened following the death of the disciples. how a Hebrew notion of the Messiah became corrupted and eventually the tool that enslaved, murdered and converted Jews for almost 2,000 years...this is why Job went through all he did go through as he thought himself righteous but was a man of the corrupted faith of Egypt, he even advised the Pharaoh to kill the Hebrew babies. yes he saw himself as righteous but his religion was a corruption of the authentic one.

We are faced with a similar choice today, to integrate into the way of heaven or to integrate into the many, but one, way of cultures on earth...the earthy kingdom. One of the main reason that the Christian will not support Torah observance was because Torah is specific. Meaning Torah is like water, a conduct, it connects us to the Land of Israel and the people of Israel. the Christian mindset to 'convert the world' was one that meant it needed more transportable notions of G-d, and right and wrong- a morale code, so the 10 commandments were invented, or rather separated from the rest of Torah, and a pick and mix attitude developed so that newly converted Christians would not feel a connection to another people but retained their indigenousness characteristics while being connected to the Church on very lose terms of 'Jesus is all' a 'morale code' 'faith'. This is ever stronger today in the climate of multi-faith ideals, so that those who hold fast to the Torah become 'extremist's but those who loosely believe in a transportable god and morale code can become assimilated into the globalising scheme.
 
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TanteBelle

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Torah is nothing to do with the covenants, the covenant was the 'I will be your G-d and you will be my people,' so even when Israel broke the Torah that covenant was still binding...the Torah was not the covenant but the regulations of Heaven, the way of heaven and those who are friends of G-d, or his people, should know and follow those things. Added to this that Moshe was not the first to issue the Torah, he merely reminded the people what they had forgotten, through years of integration into a religious system that was an echo of a former glory, indeed, the doctrine of Egypt was heavily influenced by Hebrew tradition, but a corrupted way...because when Joseph ruled that Empire his influenced was not limited to the economic system but he taught them righteous ways...ways that became corrupted after he died. How this was a similar pattern to what happened following the death of the disciples. how a Hebrew notion of the Messiah became corrupted and eventually the tool that enslaved, murdered and converted Jews for almost 2,000 years...this is why Job went through all he did go through as he thought himself righteous but was a man of the corrupted faith of Egypt, he even advised the Pharaoh to kill the Hebrew babies. yes he saw himself as righteous but his religion was a corruption of the authentic one.

We are faced with a similar choice today, to integrate into the way of heaven or to integrate into the many, but one, way of cultures on earth...the earthy kingdom. One of the main reason that the Christian will not support Torah observance was because Torah is specific. Meaning Torah is like water, a conduct, it connects us to the Land of Israel and the people of Israel. the Christian mindset to 'convert the world' was one that meant it needed more transportable notions of G-d, and right and wrong- a morale code, so the 10 commandments were invented, or rather separated from the rest of Torah, and a pick and mix attitude developed so that newly converted Christians would not feel a connection to another people but retained their indigenousness characteristics while being connected to the Church on very lose terms of 'Jesus is all' a 'morale code' 'faith'. This is ever stronger today in the climate of multi-faith ideals, so that those who hold fast to the Torah become 'extremist's but those who loosely believe in a transportable god and morale code can become assimilated into the globalising scheme.

I agree with the bold in part. The torah was part of the contract that was unchangeable and stands forever. The terms and conditions that changed was the Levitical covenant. Personally, that is what I believe, anyway.

And if Paul was a quiet man, he must've had all the fire in his pen coz he sure doesn't beat around the bush with what he says. I think he would have been a very very difficult man for the Christian churches to have as a member! He would've been very hard to get on with if you were against him.
 
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chetermezacha

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And if Paul was a quiet man, he must've had all the fire in his pen coz he sure doesn't beat around the bush with what he says. I think he would have been a very very difficult man for the Christian churches to have as a member! He would've been very hard to get on with if you were against him.

you speak in truth! In fact I think in the contemporary Church not only Paul would be unwelcome but all of the disciples and the Messiah himself...I would go as far as saying even the Christians of previous generations would not be welcome either as the Church exists to reflect the type of mindset in which generation it exists, for example, during the feudal era the Church reflected a type of religious feudalism, with a ascending structure so there was the Pope at the top, followed by the rest of the Clergy, down to the very serfs, the laymen of the Church congregation (and a heavy focus on land, which was the reason for the crusades rather than religious reasons). During the industrial period the Church reflected an industrious mindset so the 'idle hands do the devil's work' was the moto of the Church, it was all about investment, captialism but the Churches who held onto the feudal philosophy began to become old fashioned. We can also see a reflection of society in the Church during the colonial era when the Church taught 'godliness was next to cleanliness' which was the same thing begin taught in Africa, with the underlining notion that white was pure and black was evil, old, pagan, un-evolved...leading to a Church system that did not condemn slavery as much as they should have done (granted the abolition came through Christianity but it should have been much earlier). Even now the Church only reflects social tread as most sermons are about the positive mindset, or power-faith teaching...which is taken from secular positive thinking philosophy, there is also an emphasis on capitalist notions of investment, finance, want, desire...all notions of the secular world.

Were the Church should be reflecting the kingdom of heaven they more often than not reflect only secular treads in some kind of neediness to feel appealing to the masses and thus get more bums on seats. I look forward to the day the Church realises that G-d, the eternal and mighty lord of the hosts of Heaven, does not need us...we need him, and we do not need to grovel for people to come to him like he is a needy entity....this undermines his power. Because of the constant changing in Church mentality as generations change and fashions and trends change I think all previous generations will always feel unwelcome in the Church environment, we see it even happen today as we entering into a new secular and religious philosophy, this is the importance of the Torah, as it does not, nor ever has, changed since the very beginning.
 
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TanteBelle

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you speak in truth! In fact I think in the contemporary Church not only Paul would be unwelcome but all of the disciples and the Messiah himself...I would go as far as saying even the Christians of previous generations would not be welcome either as the Church exists to reflect the type of mindset in which generation it exists, for example, during the feudal era the Church reflected a type of religious feudalism, with a ascending structure so there was the Pope at the top, followed by the rest of the Clergy, down to the very serfs, the laymen of the Church congregation (and a heavy focus on land, which was the reason for the crusades rather than religious reasons). During the industrial period the Church reflected an industrious mindset so the 'idle hands do the devil's work' was the moto of the Church, it was all about investment, captialism but the Churches who held onto the feudal philosophy began to become old fashioned. We can also see a reflection of society in the Church during the colonial era when the Church taught 'godliness was next to cleanliness' which was the same thing begin taught in Africa, with the underlining notion that white was pure and black was evil, old, pagan, un-evolved...leading to a Church system that did not condemn slavery as much as they should have done (granted the abolition came through Christianity but it should have been much earlier). Even now the Church only reflects social tread as most sermons are about the positive mindset, or power-faith teaching...which is taken from secular positive thinking philosophy, there is also an emphasis on capitalist notions of investment, finance, want, desire...all notions of the secular world.

Were the Church should be reflecting the kingdom of heaven they more often than not reflect only secular treads in some kind of neediness to feel appealing to the masses and thus get more bums on seats. I look forward to the day the Church realises that G-d, the eternal and mighty lord of the hosts of Heaven, does not need us...we need him, and we do not need to grovel for people to come to him like he is a needy entity....this undermines his power. Because of the constant changing in Church mentality as generations change and fashions and trends change I think all previous generations will always feel unwelcome in the Church environment, we see it even happen today as we entering into a new secular and religious philosophy, this is the importance of the Torah, as it does not, nor ever has, changed since the very beginning.

I'm probably going to get ribbed for this, but I don't understand why folks try to make God and the Bible so complex to understand!? God is black and white, straightforward, and should be able to be understood by the most simple of minds. To me - who is a totally simple soul - I see a struggling with the faith. Not just Messianism but even the mess in Christendom, where it seems like God is some highly complex theological muddle?!

I'm probably saying this because I've been pondering on my own nation that is soooo spiritually dead, it makes one want to shout out the truth and sit down and cry at the same time! I see where the churches and the faith are pushing the youth in particular away and it is very concerning!
 
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I'm probably going to get ribbed for this, but I don't understand why folks try to make God and the Bible so complex to understand!? God is black and white, straightforward, and should be able to be understood by the most simple of minds. To me - who is a totally simple soul - I see a struggling with the faith. Not just Messianism but even the mess in Christendom, where it seems like God is some highly complex theological muddle?!

I'm probably saying this because I've been pondering on my own nation that is soooo spiritually dead, it makes one want to shout out the truth and sit down and cry at the same time! I see where the churches and the faith are pushing the youth in particular away and it is very concerning!


I'd agree that belief is simple, even a child can become a believer in Elohim (God) and Yeshua(Jesus) whatever terminology one uses, but Bible is highly complicated, difficult and hard to understand. and everybody comes to reading it with his own preset mentality and mindset, that's , in part, the reason why we have miriads of denominations and interpretations of the same text.

I strongly disagree that bible is straightforward, black and white and easy to get. Its not! As the poster above you mentioned, it also depends on the period in history one lives in. Some of the things advocated in Torah and the rest of Bible are plainly illegal and downright immoral in today's society.
 
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ContraMundum

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I'd agree that belief is simple, even a child can become a believer in Elohim (God) and Yeshua(Jesus) whatever terminology one uses, but Bible is highly complicated, difficult and hard to understand. and everybody comes to reading it with his own preset mentality and mindset, that's , in part, the reason why we have miriads of denominations and interpretations of the same text.

I strongly disagree that bible is straightforward, black and white and easy to get. Its not! As the poster above you mentioned, it also depends on the period in history one lives in. Some of the things advocated in Torah and the rest of Bible are plainly illegal and downright immoral in today's society.

Well put.

The Bible is only "black and white" and "simple" for those who don't think about it much. Try pondering the nature of evil and its origin and tell me the Bible is not complicated!

But, rest assured, your comments about the Torah advocating immorality will be jumped on from a great height by those who think it is all "black and white". You have my support- I don't think stoning people to death for picking up sticks on Saturday or finding a kosher way to sell your daughter is needed anymore. We have a better Covenant now.
 
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ContraMundum

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you speak in truth! In fact I think in the contemporary Church not only Paul would be unwelcome but all of the disciples and the Messiah himself...I would go as far as saying even the Christians of previous generations would not be welcome either as the Church exists to reflect the type of mindset in which generation it exists, for example, during the feudal era the Church reflected a type of religious feudalism, with a ascending structure so there was the Pope at the top, followed by the rest of the Clergy, down to the very serfs, the laymen of the Church congregation (and a heavy focus on land, which was the reason for the crusades rather than religious reasons). During the industrial period the Church reflected an industrious mindset so the 'idle hands do the devil's work' was the moto of the Church, it was all about investment, captialism but the Churches who held onto the feudal philosophy began to become old fashioned. We can also see a reflection of society in the Church during the colonial era when the Church taught 'godliness was next to cleanliness' which was the same thing begin taught in Africa, with the underlining notion that white was pure and black was evil, old, pagan, un-evolved...leading to a Church system that did not condemn slavery as much as they should have done (granted the abolition came through Christianity but it should have been much earlier). Even now the Church only reflects social tread as most sermons are about the positive mindset, or power-faith teaching...which is taken from secular positive thinking philosophy, there is also an emphasis on capitalist notions of investment, finance, want, desire...all notions of the secular world.

Were the Church should be reflecting the kingdom of heaven they more often than not reflect only secular treads in some kind of neediness to feel appealing to the masses and thus get more bums on seats. I look forward to the day the Church realises that G-d, the eternal and mighty lord of the hosts of Heaven, does not need us...we need him, and we do not need to grovel for people to come to him like he is a needy entity....this undermines his power. Because of the constant changing in Church mentality as generations change and fashions and trends change I think all previous generations will always feel unwelcome in the Church environment, we see it even happen today as we entering into a new secular and religious philosophy, this is the importance of the Torah, as it does not, nor ever has, changed since the very beginning.

Sounds to me like you have been going to all the wrong Churches, adopting all the wrong values and now you label them all alike. Considering Jesus's words to Saul about persecuting Him by hurting the Church, and Paul's word to the Church about the nature of the Body of Christ, I would not be so bold to write all Christians off as dumber than yourself.
 
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chetermezacha

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I don't think stoning people to death for picking up sticks on Saturday or finding a kosher way to sell your daughter is needed anymore. We have a better Covenant now.
The torah of men has far worse punishment. In fact Christians spent hundreds of years devising methods of torture that the most sick minded could barely imagine, it wasnt just the Spanish inquisition. Or are you talking about a covenant that was made just recently?
 
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The torah of men has far worse punishment. In fact Christians spent hundreds of years devising methods of torture that the most sick minded could barely imagine, it wasnt just the Spanish inquisition. Or are you talking about a covenant that was made just recently?

I'm talking about the New Covenant, obviously.

I'm not talking about medieval civil law. I have no idea why that was not obvious to you- or do you have an agenda where we are now forced to talk about crimes against God and man done by false Christians parading as disciples of Jesus...but yet we must impute those crimes to all Christians (even as the ones being tortured were also Christian, even if only in a nominal sense) in order to make us identify ourselves with the victims? If that is your agenda, don't bother me with it. Ye must be born again. Born again believers faithfully following Jesus have always opposed torture, war, violence, prejudice etc.
 
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chetermezacha

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I'm talking about the New Covenant, obviously.

I'm not talking about medieval civil law. I have no idea why that was not obvious to you- or do you have an agenda where we are now forced to talk about crimes against God and man done by false Christians parading as disciples of Jesus...but yet we must impute those crimes to all Christians (even as the ones being tortured were also Christian, even if only in a nominal sense) in order to make us identify ourselves with the victims? If that is your agenda, don't bother me with it. Ye must be born again. Born again believers faithfully following Jesus have always opposed torture, war, violence, prejudice etc.

So explain your idea of the New Covenant and i will explain what Jeremiah was talking about, after all he said the New Covenant was to put the Torah in the heart...what Torah was this if it was not the Torah?

Jeremiah 31

I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "
declares the LORD.

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.

But you are suggesting this is a different Torah? one that is better than the original Torah? how many torahs do you think there are?
 
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TanteBelle

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So explain your idea of the New Covenant and i will explain what Jeremiah was talking about, after all he said the New Covenant was to put the Torah in the heart...what Torah was this if it was not the Torah?

Jeremiah 31

I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "
declares the LORD.

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.

But you are suggesting this is a different Torah? one that is better than the original Torah? how many torahs do you think there are?

I don't believe that the new covenant was to have the torah on their hearts. Otherwise, that's saying that David didn't have the torah on his heart, Moses, Abraham, and all the way through, they didn't have torah on their heart.

Psalm 119:97 O how love I Thy torah! It is my meditation all the day.
 
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chetermezacha

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The Hebrew is quite specific in this, it says the Torah will be written on the heart in this new covenant, but that does not suggest that people before this covenant didnt have Torah on their hearts. The point is we were to become like them, like those faithful who lived before, even the Messiah himself.
 
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