Submitting Torah Observance To New Covenant Principles

[Lulav]

You are deceived by thinking that your Torah observance is pleasing to God:

Galatians 3

Faith or Observance of the Law

1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

This is meant for you Visionary. The Spirit is speaking to me right now. You will not be as you are now in just a short while. The Spirit of the Lord will change you. I am not saying this on my own!

So I take it that you agree with Paul that no one should follow the true Apostles the walked, ate, slept, traveled and sat as Yeshua's feet and were witnesses to his ministry, his miracles, The miracles wrought by them when he sent them out, his arrest, conviction, crucifixion, burial and resurrection and acsention, but only follow what Paul teaches?

Also the one who cursed the Messiah and his Apostles in his teachings and letters?

This is who we should follow?

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
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Hmm, Torah clearly says differently. The L-RD told Isaac that he would continue the Covenant made with his father Abraham because Abraham:

1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. 2 And the L-RD appeared unto him, and said , Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed ; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge (mishmereth), my commandments (mitzvot), my statutes (chuqqah), and my laws (TORAH).




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Paul is undeniably Anti-Torah especially in this letter to the Galatians.

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse

Yet, John refutes this by saying:

1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Messiah is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
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And for good measure in case you missed it, he says again........

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.

And His commandments are not burdensome.
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As James taught, you need both, not just faith, but works, one without the other is meaningless. You can sit around all day and say 'I believe' but if you do nothing to back up that belief then it is meaningless.

Nor can you just do works without faith.

There is only a small few who will see the New Heavens and earth and spend eternity with the L-RD. And they are those who do both. Not one, not the other, but both. This is whom the Adversary hates, and this is whom he will try and keep others from knowing about.

Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

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Two things here, Keeping the commandments of G-d and having faith in Yeshua.

Daniel understood this, as he also understood about Messiah to come.

And I prayed to the Lord my God, and made confession, and said, "O Lord, great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and mercy with those who love Him, and with those who keep His commandments---Dan 9


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As we can see by the passage from Genesis to Isaac and this one in Daniel, The covenant is kept with those who love G-d and keep his commandments.


You need to ask yourself why is the Dragon (Adversary, HaSatan) so enraged with these? The woman is Israel, her offspring are those Jew and gentiles that keep G-ds commandment and have the faith and belief in His Son.

And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

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He is not off making war with those who belief in grace alone, is he?

 

[Lulav]

First of all I will address those within the body of Messiah. To submit Torah observance to New Covenant principles means teaching Torah observance in a non-obligatory fashion, leaving that as a freedom for the believer to choose. Most MJ teachings today give grace oriented believers no choice but to be totally Torah observant to leave. You must understand there is an enmity between Torah and Grace. Only when Torah is submitted to Grace can there be peace. Since Torah observant teachers choose to subvert the historicity and grace doctrine to achieve their goals their teachings must be refuted.

Regarding unsaved Jews, they view MJs MGs as either insane or deceitful heretics or both. Being sensitive to the needs of unsaved Jewish people should never be reason to compromise the freedoms of the Gospel.

And where did this 'freedom' to choose come from? I mean we've always had a choice to follow HaShem's laws or not, most times not, but how is what you're saying different?

To me you are basically saying we have a choice to show G-d we love him or not by either keeping or not keeping his commandments, but it doesn't matter to him, we're in good standing with him what ever we choose. That to me sounds like 'you will not Surely die, instead you will...........'

 

[TertiusC]

Paul is undeniably Anti-Torah especially in this letter to the Galatians.

"All who rely on observing the law are under a curse".

Yet, John refutes this by saying:

1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Messiah is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
​

And for good measure in case you missed it, he says again........

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.

And His commandments are not burdensome.
​

As James taught, you need both, not just faith, but works, one without the other is meaningless. You can sit around all day and say 'I believe' but if you do nothing to back up that belief then it is meaningless.

Nor can you just do works without faith.

There is only a small few who will see the New Heavens and earth and spend eternity with the L-RD. And they are those who do both. Not one, not the other, but both. This is whom the Adversary hates, and this is whom he will try and keep others from knowing about.

Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

​

Two things here, Keeping the commandments of G-d and having faith in Yeshua.

Daniel understood this, as he also understood about Messiah to come.

And I prayed to the Lord my God, and made confession, and said, "O Lord, great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and mercy with those who love Him, and with those who keep His commandments---Dan 9


​

As we can see by the passage from Genesis to Isaac and this one in Daniel, The covenant is kept with those who love G-d and keep his commandments.


You need to ask yourself why is the Dragon (Adversary, HaSatan) so enraged with these? The woman is Israel, her offspring are those Jew and gentiles that keep G-ds commandment and have the faith and belief in His Son.

And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

​

He is not off making war with those who belief in grace alone, is he?

Lulav,

I don't think that it is easy to make headway with someone who clearly (me included) believe that Paul's writings are inspired. I'll start there and continue to say that I don't think that they (Paul's writings) are in contrast to Yahushua's teaching.

For instance, I don't believe that those who rely on observance of Torah have Salvation. Those who rely on Grace do. It does not mean that we should not observe Torah. I'm very happy with Galations and I do not think that Paul was/is anti-Torah.

We are told that if we love Him we will keep His commandments. The scripture in Galations tells us that we cannot gain salvation from keeping commandments.

Torah was NEVER meant/designed/created to save. And if you rely on it to save you, you are under it's curse, condemnation to death because of the lack of grace that enables you to obey/observe.

 

[Lulav]

Tertius, can you tell me what makes you believe that his writings are inspired by the Holy Spirit of G-d?

 

[TertiusC]

Tertius, can you tell me what makes you believe that his writings are inspired by the Holy Spirit of G-d?

I can ask the same from you and the scripture that you point to from other writers. Therefore we both believe in the whole or at least a subset of the given canon today.

The burden of proof then (because you also believe in some scripture) to disprove.

 

[visionary]

In all the years that the orthodox have had reign over the Word and the preaching.. it has been taught both grace and the law together... true, the interpretation they kept to was the Roman interpretation of the law. In this they failed to see the value of the truth in its true setting.

In this generation we have run into those who have run amok with "law is done away with".. "grace only" but it has been by the twisting of scripture... which has caused some of us to re-evaluate Paul's writtings and run the other way as fast as possible. Hence Lulav's convictions.

I have to say that it was Paul's writtings which the Holy Spirit use to convict and convert my soul.. especially,.. "Ye are the temple of God" I let God in,, and I have not been the same since. Thus I give Paul a break and am not so hard on his writtings or wording in his letters as he tries to deal with both the new and old issues from the Jew's side and the Gentile's view point. Paul as Lulav has so clearly pointed out still had too much "I"'s in his letters. It is clearly one of Paul's character flaws. He was not perfect in Christ.

Those who follow Paul only, clearly show the character flaws in their postings on different threads throughout CF. I believe Paul would roll over in his grave to see this position using his letters only. I believe that Paul was wrestling in his spirit over the Pharisee view and that which he was inspired to see. You know the saying.. old habits die hard. In his exhuberance, from the light he received, preached more one sided than the other because of the conflicts battling in his own heart and the preception that others were going through the same conflicts as he was.

Bottom line... let us not abuse the scripture with "letter/ word/ definition " when we should do more to just let it inspire us... line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little... as God would want us to see things.

Believe me,.... even inspired individuals have failings and are not yet perfect....

 

[TertiusC]

(I read "Old Rabbis die hard".)

 

[visionary]

(I read "Old Rabbis die hard".)

Maybe they do..

 

[Lulav]

Lulav,

I don't think that it is easy to make headway with someone who clearly (me included) believe that Paul's writings are inspired. I'll start there and continue to say that I don't think that they (Paul's writings) are in contrast to Yahushua's teaching.

For instance, I don't believe that those who rely on observance of Torah have Salvation. Those who rely on Grace do. It does not mean that we should not observe Torah. I'm very happy with Galations and I do not think that Paul was/is anti-Torah.

We are told that if we love Him we will keep His commandments. The scripture in Galatians tells us that we cannot gain salvation from keeping commandments.

Torah was NEVER meant/designed/created to save. And if you rely on it to save you, you are under it's curse, condemnation to death because of the lack of grace that enables you to obey/observe.

The 'we are told' is from whom? Yes, from Yeshua himself. Paul never tells us that does he? Instead to those he wrote to he tells that they must obey his gospel. Does the gospel not belong to the L-RD alone? Think about that, he repeats this many, many times.

You made a differentiation when you said 'we are told' vs 'the scripture in Galatians' does this mean you find Paul's writings as scripture, equal on level with Torah but not the words of Yeshua himself recorded in the gospels?

You said you don't see a contrast in Yeshua's teachings and Pauls. I will tell you a banking secret. Tellers are taught to spot counterfeit money by studying the REAL thing. If you don't study and know like the back of your hand the real thing (G-ds Torah, instructions for life) then you will not know when a fake comes along, you won't see the contrast, you will be decieved and take the 'bad bill' which will profit you nothing, but maybe get you thrown in jail for passing it on. Remember Yeshua said:

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "
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Teaching is like passing on a good bill (money) or a bad bill. You will be judged on knowing the difference.

What ever is written at anytime in order to be from G-d needs to not contradict The Torah or words of Yeshua, period. If these are truly the words from the L-RD why do we struggle with them so much? Why does it 'seem' that they are saying he contradicts Torah but is defended as though he doesn't? Is our G-d so petty as to make what should be clear in our understanding, so hard to understand? As the falsely labeled books of 'Peter' say? I doubt it, that is not a loving G-d is it?

Here's a scenario where we see one asking and Yeshua answering. Here we know what the question is and who is giving the answer. These things we do not know from any of Paul's writings, we can only surmiss on what he is addressing and assume teachings from that.

Plain and simple (in context):

but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs." 15 And he laid his hands on them and went on his way.
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16 Then someone came to him and said,
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Q -"Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?"

17 And he (Yeshua) said to him,"Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good.
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A -If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

A simple question, a simple answer. If it were only about faith and grace then why didn't he say so? Eternal life IS Salvation. It is very simple, yet Paul makes is complicated because he is teaching not to do just that!

If you believe that you must believe in Yeshua to have eternal life which is in addition to, not instead of following the commandments, then you would believe this from the mouth of one that witnessed his coming and going wouldn't you? As he told the Father in prayer in John

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word"
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This prayer does not include Paul he was not there with them. The true mark of an Apostle is that you were with Yeshua the entire time of his ministry.

Also we read in John that Yeshua gave this sign that coincides with what Peter did in Acts

"But when the Comforter is come , whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness , because ye have been with me from the beginning. "
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Did you see that? The two witnesses of Yeshua's life death and resurrection and accention are these who were with him from the beginning. These and these alone are the ones by whose words we are to learn of Yeshua and believe on him.

But what did Paul tell the Galatians?

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen;immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
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Not only does this contradict what Yeshua said about who should be witnesses to him, but Paul even contradicts himself in another letter as to what he did after his 'conversion'.

Tell me, if you were in court accused of a crime that if convicted would mean your death, would you rather have eyewitnesses to testify for you or one that had 'revelations' or visions? You decide because your eternal life depends on who you believe.

Tertius, can you tell me what makes you believe that his writings are inspired by the Holy Spirit of G-d?

I can ask the same from you and the scripture that you point to from other writers. Therefore we both believe in the whole or at least a subset of the given canon today.

The burden of proof then (because you also believe in some scripture) to disprove.

No, your response to my responses on this thread, none of which was addressed to you specifically, was to tell me that YOU believe that Pauls writings are Holy Spirit inspired. The burden is on you since you brought it up to me directly.

Please tell me why you believe this, is it because Paul said so? Where are Paul's witnesses? to his conversion, his baptism, his receiving of the Holy Spirit? How his revelations came to him, what exactly Jesus taught him?

Why would Yeshua choose this murderer to be the 'apostle to the gentiles'? To bring light or keep in darkness?

From the Priest and Prophet Jeremiah:

"O L-RD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say , Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit ."
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What are these lies and vanity and things that are not profitable for eternal life and who did they inherit them from? Other heathens? Or Jews who say they are Jews but have lied?

Yeshua said: Behold , I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie

Paul Said: For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

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Tell me how can any lie glorify the True G-d? How can a lie make truth abound? Double talk, and yet he even says that he is being judged as a sinner because the end does NOT justify the means.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

There is only one Gospel whose power and gracious freedom overcomes sin and death throughout the world. But if the Gospel's freedom is suppressed for the sake of upholding the Law (Torah), then those that put Torah above the Gospel must abandon the contradictory elements of their theology and submit their Torah observance to New Covenant principles. This does not mandate the banning of Torah observance; however, it does restrict Torah observance to that of "non-obligatory" compliance in Messianic Jewish worship and daily practice.

In Messianic congregations in the USA and abroad, doctrinal error due to explicit Torah observance appears to be wide spread. One must ask; Is it that hard to determine error from correct doctrine? What initially appeared to be a clear-cut issue of historical inaccuracy and miss-interpretation of Scripture twenty years ago, today appears to be a mute point among most Messianic brethren. Why so? Some of this lack of interest in historical and biblical accuracy is due to the human tendency to accept only the interpretation of scripture that fits one's doctrinal stand, no matter how absurd it may be. The other tendency is to believe false doctrine simply because it has not been rejected yet by its constituency. In either case, the reasons for accepting such doctrine are weak indeed.

In the 1980s some Messianic Jewish teachers came up with the idea that they could reshape Messianic believers perception of the "Gospel of Grace" and "Torah Observance" by simply re-inventing the persona of the Apostle Paul into the "Torah Observant "Rabbi Shaul", all accepting of modern Messianic Jewish thought. In doing so, they had to develop an approach that would disregard the accurate history of Paul in his evolution from "Saul of Tarsus" persecutor of the Church in Israel and the Diaspora, to "the Apostle Paul", church founder, teacher and evangelist to both Jew and Gentile alike. They would have to sell to their flock the idea that Paul remained Torah observant, even while ministering to the Gentiles in the Greco/Roman provinces of Asia Minor. They also had to assert that the proselytes of Rav Shaul were Torah observant. The task of selling this "spin" was simple for most of the devoted believers within the Messianic Jewish movement, but much less so for those educated in Church history and New Covenant teachings. Was this error one of confusion or design on the part of some Messianic leaders? I am sure we will know one day.

To be more specific, in the mid-90’s David Stern’s revolutionary book , "The Messianic Jewish Manifesto" started turning belief towards strict Torah Observance. I believe that Stern’s intent was that of dismantling the "Pauline" teachings of Grace, to revert back to the Law. He and other supportive Messianic Jews resented the teachings of Grace having supremacy over Torah. He therefore intentionally rebelled against New Covenant doctrine believing that Jews would not accept any Gospel except one that was totally Torah observant. In doing this, he and other supportive teachers adopted a dangerously heretical course. Strict Torah observance has now become the standard in much of the Messianic Jewish movement. Stern's book adopts a "Social Darwinist" form of deception by promoting an erroneous historical portrait of Paul to conform to his religious and social agenda. Social Darwinists justify promoting the "big lie" if it serves to promote the continuity of their social cause. It may have been a 'Freudian slip" when Stern used the term "manifesto" in his revolutionary book. Stern's use of Marx missed the Biblical mark!

There are also erroneous motivations underlying Torah Observant Messianic Jewish believer's acceptance of either the "Rav Shaul" or "Heretic Paul" historical scenarios. If you read between the lines in some of their statements, you will find that Torah Observant Messianic believers who know their history only give "lip service" supporting "Rav Shaul", and are actually Anti-Paul and consider his teachings heretical. In the USA, most Anti-Pauline Messianic Jewish believers hide behind the "Rav Shaul' history nonsense. In Israel though, most Anti-Paul MJs do not hide their sentiments concerning their oppostion to Pauline doctrine. Most Messianic Jews that support the Rav Shaul or Heretic Paul historical scenario, do so for the sake of what they perceive to be a necessity. They truly believe that only by holding to an erroneous viewpoint that supports obligatory Torah Observance will they successfully evangelize the Jewish people.

We should question Torah Observant Messianic Jewish doctrine seriously by first concentrating on the teachings in the epistles to the Hebrews, Romans and Galatians. Above all the other apostles, Paul was given the divine task of proclaiming the principles of the New Covenant to Jew and Gentile believer alike. Let us endeavor to take His new revelation to heart. The "Messianic Literary Corner" has published a study series entitled "Submitting Torah Observance To New Covenant Principles" to discuss this very important doctrinal topic.

Many thanks for making this thread---as it was a blessing to know..including the many discussions within afterward

 

[Ivy]

Torah observance and the level you take is OK with me. It's your motivation and attitude toward Torah Observance that makes the difference.

An excellent point.

 

[Ivy]

I have never attacked the MJ position. I have only attacked some MG positions, namely, that Gentiles are sinners unless they keep the specific laws given to Israel (eg. circumcision, all the sabbaths, the moedim, tzitzis and so forth).

I have said it a hundred times- Gentiles can join in with some things (not all) but it is a free choice, it will not make them more Christian, more Jewish, more saved, more sanctified or more orthodox. It will teach them about how God has used our people to bring forth Messiah, and a great many blessings can be found about the Messiah within that context. However, anyone who teaches that a Gentile must do these commandments given uniquely to Israel or he or she is a sinner is a heretic with a false Gospel and denies grace. The irony is that their position comes from a Gentile paradigm...not a Jewish one as they claim!

This is an excellent summation, and full of GRACE, I feel.


Also, Tertius, I 'd like to offer a few thoughts on the notion of being "open,"-- that is open to change:

There's a time and season for every purpose under heaven. Sometimes it's the time to be open, and sometimes it's not the time to be open. Whether or not it's the time to be open, many times, depends on your season of life.

I think it's natural at your young age to be open to examining and questioning. That's right and desirable.

But some of the individuals on this thread have been around the block quite a few times with this issue--and have examined, re-examined, discussed, re-discussed, studied, re-studied, hashed, re-hashed.

It is OK for them at their season of life to, if they choose, say "Thank you, I have a winner, no more calls please," and hang up the phone on some issues if they choose. It is OK, when a person has studied extensively, to draw conclusions. They do not have to be open to changing on every issue for an indefinite period of time. (This may be a notion that you could be "open" to. )

I can appreciate that that may feel abrupt to you on your end....but you do have some discussion partners here, anyway.

 

[Ivy]

And a response to your prior response, Tert:

I think it is desirable to pursue the practice of godly self-discipline (I did not, however, say it was "more" satisfying than grace--I said the opposite). Grace gives us strength for these pursuits, helps them be fruitful for our growth and maturity and service to others, and makes up for all that will be lacking no matter how much we do.

As long as our Jewish friends (Yeshua believing/or not Yeshua believing--you may get different opinions) do not mind your usage of some of their practices to that end, that is fine, too--but you should consult them, and continue to consult them, for three reasons:

1. You will avoid offending them by appropriating things they see as their particular heritage.

2. You will avoid taking unnecessary burdens on yourself.

3. You will avoid the trap of pride.

 

[anisavta]

Torah observance and the level you take is OK with me. It's your motivation and attitude toward Torah Observance that makes the difference.

Yes!

 

[Lulav]

I know which spirit would cause you to make such a declaration.. Reminds me of the time when the preacher came off his pulpit to knock me with the power of the spirit and I prayed for God to reveal the truth, so while he was trying to knock me off my feet before the congregation, the Lord was blessing me with insights as to what spirit was leading this man to work himself into a frenzy. The more he tried to dominate through the "spirit" the more the congregation woke up. And I just witnessed it all. I received the peace that passes all understanding.

I am getting a similar message as I pray about this too...

Missed this before

That is why it is good to abide by the separation rules, you would be surprised at what can be passed on through 'touching' in the guise of laying on of hands and blessings, etc.

 

[visionary]

All happened in the early years of seeking and search and depending on God to explain.

 

[TertiusC]

And a response to your prior response, Tert:

I think it is desirable to pursue the practice of godly self-discipline (I did not, however, say it was "more" satisfying than grace--I said the opposite). Grace gives us strength for these pursuits, helps them be fruitful for our growth and maturity and service to others, and makes up for all that will be lacking no matter how much we do.

As long as our Jewish friends (Yeshua believing/or not Yeshua believing--you may get different opinions) do not mind your usage of some of their practices to that end, that is fine, too--but you should consult them, and continue to consult them, for three reasons:

1. You will avoid offending them by appropriating things they see as their particular heritage.

2. You will avoid taking unnecessary burdens on yourself.

3. You will avoid the trap of pride.

I don't necessarily agree, but I'm willing to discuss.

As long as our Jewish friends (Yeshua believing/or not Yeshua believing--you may get different opinions) do not mind your usage of some of their practices to that end

If our Jewish friends mind that we obey OUR Torah? I understand when this goes to the line of purely extrabiblical interpretational observances. But I don't really care about those as I've said.

The Torah belongs to us, Romans 11. I'm not saying that that means we should be offended at them (Jews)! But they are in need of a saviour, that's my feeling towards them (and all others that haven't seen Yahushua's light).

1. You will avoid offending them by appropriating things they see as their particular heritage.

2. You will avoid taking unnecessary burdens on yourself.

3. You will avoid the trap of pride.

If they see obeying Torah as their heritage, that's great, it is, I feel the same way. Romans 11.

I don't see how Torah is burdensome. Obeying Torah is freedom. Shabbat is wonderful! But, you might be referring to something else

Trap of pride. Pride in what? Also, the trap of pride is all over the place. I don't think it's a valid reason to avoid doing things. I'd rephrase it, the risk of pride.

 

[ContraMundum]

If our Jewish friends mind that we obey OUR Torah?

It's not your Torah. That's the whole point of Galatians, Colossians, Romans 7, 9-11 and so forth.

The Torah belongs to us, Romans 11.

Romans 11 does not say that Gentiles are to keep the 613 mitzvot of the Torah (and the Torah is one). It says that Gentiles are grafted into the promises and blessings of faithful Israel. In clearer words, Rom 11 does not overthrow the clear, sane and Hebraic teaching of Galatians, Colossians or the previous chapters of Romans.

Have you never seen an ingrafted tree? The branches do not morph into the same species. They remain distinct yet they grow together. Our friend SGM4HIM once posted a beautiful picture of one for us....go and seek it in the archive.

I'm not saying that that means we should be offended at them (Jews)! But they are in need of a saviour, that's my feeling towards them (and all others that haven't seen Yahushua's light).

Romans 14 tells you all you need to know about this- how not to offend the Jews that you claim to want to convert. It also tells us Jews how not to cause the Gentiles to stumble. It notes that differing customs and understandings of holy practices are acceptable- this would be unthinkable in your view of Gentiles wearing tztizis and being cicumcised, not to mention kashrus.

I don't see how Torah is burdensome.

Go ahead, tell the Apostles that they were wimps.

Peter said of the Law and forcing Gentiles to keep it: "Now therefore why do you tempt God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples, a yoke which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" (Acts 15:10)

So, the real problem here is that you see the Torah as way easy, and Peter the Apostle who actually knew Jesus was misguided.

The reason you come to such conclusions is because you have never been under the Law personally. Peter was.

Can I suggest you check out- Ed Dobson

That guy tried it out.

Obeying Torah is freedom.

Not scriptural. Such a statement needs some qualification.

Shabbat is wonderful!

Yes, keeping the Torah can be a joyous thing (except for the killing animals and stoning people to death bits and other portions that we don't need to point out to make our illustration clearer) but is not knowing Jesus and having the fullness of the Holy Spirit in your life far more joyous? Is not this the "peace which passeth all understanding"? You don't get more of Jesus by keeping the Torah. The power of the Holy Spirit will strengthen you to keep the Law of Christ, and you don't get the Holy Spirit by the works of the Law. What gets you to Heaven- observing days, seasons and wearing tzitzis or being crucified with Christ, putting to death the old man of sin and living a life of love of God and neighbour?

I appreciate your love for the Torah- I share it. But I know that it is easy for some Christians to fall into a Torah-focused idolatry, or even an idolatry of all things Jewish. But when we meet Jesus that's all we want- more of Him, less of us.

I'm not trying to put you down, brother. You are a good man (I think) with a sharp mind but I feel personally hurt when I see Gentile friends like you preach the Law, never having been under it in the first place. Trust me when I tell you that I keep the portions of Torah that don't get in the way of grace, but not for salvation, but for reasons that are too personal to share on this forum.

 

[visionary]

Remember God's people are peculiar people. We are actively seeking to be more like Him. He created the illustration at Mount Sinai that we may know the way His mind works.

 

[Ivy]

I'm thinking I could get a more specific handle on what you're after, Tertius, when you talk about the Torah, if you delineate what portions of it you are interested in applying to your life.

People here could probably give you some helpful advice and counsel if they know what things you specifically have in mind--I know Shabbat was one thing you mentioned.