Submitting Torah Observance To New Covenant Principles

[Lulav]

enoch?

 

[Ivy]

so, to get to the essence - you dont eat pigs, what written Torah doesnt allow you to. Good. What else you do? Holy Days?

Please, concise and to the point. I am here to learn something -not about Judaism, but how doing things that you do isn't just a stylish or selfpleasing thing for you, chet, to do. If you guys ( and girls) are unwilling to share, fine.

I lived what you like to call" torah lifestyle". Holy Days, repentance in judaism, major postulates of tanach- i know it and currently teach that in my church class. People seem to be enjoying it and getting into it , hopefully not as fashionable thing to try like stylish "left behind" books, etc, but to enrich their view of God.

But I know how many people pbserve what you call "Torah laws" just for the sake of showoff. There are many people that observe Torah laws superficially, letter, not the spirit. They are not even believers, no J no MJ.

I thought i might give it another chance. But nobody seem to be willing to share I keep asking what ( exactly) do you observe? How is it good for you? Nobody seem to say much..... Maybe MJ as a denom is indeed not for me..

I did about a 14-year term in MJ before becoming Catholic, and I observed (and had ) a variety of motives for getting involved.

Jewish individuals seemed to be there 1) because this way of keeping their identity was very important to them; they did not want to "assimilate" into the evangelical Gentile culture 2) because they had a love and concern for all Israel to be saved.

Gentiles (who comprise the majority of MJ--around 70%) typically were there 1) because they wanted to learn about the Jewish roots of their faith 2) because they wanted to be a part of something that felt, to them, to be better/more rigorous/more authentic than whatever their church experience had been--at least for a season.

I think it is OK for G's to pursue the MJ route if 1) they can do so respecting other denominations as much as themselves, and 2) if it isn't done in an appropriating way that offends the traditional Jewish community.

If these conditions aren't present, they had better leave it alone, because they'll only cause offense to both the church and the Jewish community. (If they get a big head, then as Yeshua said, "They have their reward in full". Nothing else good is accomplished.)

I found it a fascinating and enriching learning experience, though. It really deepened my faith and also my appreciation for our Jewish root.

This probably didn't exactly address your post, Desert Rose ......sorry for rambling if I did.

 

[ContraMundum]

I'm kinda not getting what you are on about with the woman caught in adultery, sorry sir. I know that Christianity likes to interpret that one as saying, 'Well, we're all sinners, so don't judge me!' which is not what it is about at all.

The more traditional Christian understanding of that passage is that there were no eligible witnesses, according to the Law. None of them were eligible to carry through the death penalty, hence Jesus said "let him who is without sin cast the first stone"...etc. This of course lines up 100% with Rabbinic halacha at the time. Again, the ancient Christian doctrine is correct.

 

[chetermezacha]

yes of course it wasnt a fair trial as you need at least 2 witnesses for a crime, but anyway it was a no caser as they could not give captial punishment for crimes, this was why they sent Yeshua to Pilate because they couldnt do it...of cause after the resurrection, not only of Yeshua but many others in and around Judea, I think a state of desperation set in so they would stone to death (Stephen for example, and Paul killed many) as the general consenus was those who were followers of Yeshua the nazarene entered into another faith, which was illegal in Rome for it was the Roman gods or no god (unless you was Jewish and part of the community) this later developed into the reason for segregation and persecution of the early disciples by Romans. Of cause stoning happened before this but it never resulted in death, such as when they took the stones from inside solomons area to stone Yeshua.

The point was not whether it was or not a true case the point was it was a 'blue law' (I think the Americans call it) when a crime is on the books but it isnt enforced...a bit like prostitution in the UK, its illegal but its not enforced (for whatever reason...normally because if they are punished for being on the street they will just end up in a brothel under the rule of nasty pimps). So this was a no caser, they only brought it to him to test him, as we are told this was the reason. Because the majority of the Pharisees at that time didnt follow Torah, they liked to think they did but if they did they would have known Yeshua, as he said, 'if you would believe Moshe you would believe me as he wrote about me'. So they were testing his 'holier than thou' as they saw him this way also and wanted to trip him up by accusing someone who he knew.

 

[ContraMundum]

yes of course it wasnt a fair trial as you need at least 2 witnesses for a crime, but anyway it was a no caser as they could not give captial punishment for crimes, this was why they sent Yeshua to Pilate because they couldnt do it...of cause after the resurrection, not only of Yeshua but many others in and around Judea, I think a state of desperation set in so they would stone to death (Stephen for example, and Paul killed many) as the general consenus was those who were followers of Yeshua the nazarene entered into another faith, which was illegal in Rome for it was the Roman gods or no god (unless you was Jewish and part of the community) this later developed into the reason for segregation and persecution of the early disciples by Romans. Of cause stoning happened before this but it never resulted in death, such as when they took the stones from inside solomons area to stone Yeshua.

The point was not whether it was or not a true case the point was it was a 'blue law' (I think the Americans call it) when a crime is on the books but it isnt enforced...a bit like prostitution in the UK, its illegal but its not enforced (for whatever reason...normally because if they are punished for being on the street they will just end up in a brothel under the rule of nasty pimps). So this was a no caser, they only brought it to him to test him, as we are told this was the reason. Because the majority of the Pharisees at that time didnt follow Torah, they liked to think they did but if they did they would have known Yeshua, as he said, 'if you would believe Moshe you would believe me as he wrote about me'. So they were testing his 'holier than thou' as they saw him this way also and wanted to trip him up by accusing someone who he knew.

I don't think it's that muddy, actually. Check out m. Sanh. 7:4, 11:1. Neqi hadat, not rashaim required. Makes perfect sense with Luke's Gospel. Mishnah Torah talks about it as well (can't remember the reference and yes, I know this is much later, but it is confirmed in earlier works) Seems pretty straight forward to me.

 

[visionary]

The more traditional Christian understanding of that passage is that there were no eligible witnesses, according to the Law. None of them were eligible to carry through the death penalty, hence Jesus said "let him who is without sin cast the first stone"...etc. This of course lines up 100% with Rabbinic halacha at the time. Again, the ancient Christian doctrine is correct.

That makes no sense... what has "no eligible witnesses" have anything to do with "who is without sin cast the first stone".. Are you trying to say that in order to be an eligible witness you must be without sin?

 

[Tea]

I knew you would say something like this. Having watched you for all this time I knew you had a lot of integrity and courage. Your family must be very proud of you. I would be.

Yes Contra we are. Very proud.

 

[TanteBelle]

Yes Contra we are. Very proud.

Oh Ma!!

 

[anisavta]

I'm confused.

 

[ContraMundum]

That makes no sense... what has "no eligible witnesses" have anything to do with "who is without sin cast the first stone".. Are you trying to say that in order to be an eligible witness you must be without sin?

Yes, pretty much. The Torah requirements for witnesses combined with the Halacha of the time make it pretty hard to find witnesses for a capital punishment.

 

[Desert Rose]

I was told the only law I needed to follow was the law of love and of Christ - whatever those were - I was just suppose to know them because the Holy Spirit was suppose to tell me what they were.

I’d agree that having a general vague order of law of love is hard to obey, especially when you are not as experienced yet. Its true, in practicality the discernment of when to act how is not as easy, it requires learning and direction of wiser teachers.

I did about a 14-year term in MJ before becoming Catholic, and I observed (and had ) a variety of motives for getting involved. …………………..
……..I found it a fascinating and enriching learning experience, though. It really deepened my faith and also my appreciation for our Jewish root.This probably didn't exactly address your post, Desert Rose ......sorry for rambling if I did

By no means sorry! Thank you , I am very grateful to you , TAnteBelle and Anisavta for the interesting input and advices

 

[janwoG]

Knowing that Jesus has always focus on the Spirit of the Law, what would be the golden middle way of Torah observance under the New Covenant, useful as a tool of sanctification and the legalism of Pharisees, Jesus has criticized?

 

[visionary]

Knowing that Jesus has always focus on the Spirit of the Law, what would be the golden middle way of Torah observance under the New Covenant, useful as a tool of sanctification and the legalism of Pharisees, Jesus has criticized?

DO as Yeshua advised... see Him .. as the giver, the provider, the redeemer, the lamb, the sacrifice, the High Priest, when reading the Torah.

Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Following that advice.. as did the apostles.. find Yeshua in the law of Moses, in the writtings of the prophets and in the psalms..

John 1:45
Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

 

[yedida]

Desert Rose,
Nice meeting you. I am a gentile by birth. For the last 5 years I've been, I guess, a Messianic Gentile (I usually say I am trying to follow 1st century fulfilled Judaism). There is much that cannot be observed today but I think most of us MGs try as best we can.
Mostly it's in our observance of Shabbat. When I was into churchianity, I would actually spend Sat. dreading waking up early Sun. to go to church (once there, I'd be glad I'd gone) and after Sun. service, my day would go back to ordinary. Now I have six whole days to do my work and prepare for my "appointment" with Abba. On Fri. afternoon I take care of the food needs for Sat. and I bake Challah. I get so much pleasure preparing my Sabbath meal and the food I'll be taking to fellowship.
Lighting the candles, saying the blessings being with others who have spent all week to come to this moment of worship and praise, there's nothing to compare with it.
Sat. morning I have an online live service that I attend and then return to my shul for 5 to 6 hours of study and fellowship, climaxing with the little Havdalah service of separating the holy from the common, and taking a little of the holy with us as we leave. It's soooo lovely.
Of course, the feasts of Hashem are observed as best we know how. We're all still learning. Most of us do wear tzitzit, either by way of a prayer shawl or katan, some of the men (though not all) use tefillin and meet at shul in the mornings and evenings during the week.
We attempt to observe the Biblical dietary laws. (Due to the fact that there is not a Kosher market in my area, I can only obey the very basics, such as no pork - the manner of the slaughter unfortunately is beyond my control so I do limit my use of meat.)
A few of the other things that I observe when possible: the not mixing of fabrics that I wear (I don't always achieve this, but I do try) and in my little garden out back I don't mix the seeds and rows.
Then, of course, there are lots of things written in Torah that most any nice, friendly person would do, especially a Christian. Such as helping someone in need, whether it is a friend, stranger, enemy - Torah observers and Christians don't have the option to not help.
There's one thing I do that is not commanded. I've been told that it's an Orthodox Jewish tradition and it's lovely. I keep a little coin box in my living room and whenever we study Torah we place our loose change into it to show gratitude for the privilege of being able to study Hashem's word. At the end of one or two months it gets emptied out and turned over to a charity, usually to a food bank.
Is this what you were wanting to know about how someone walks Torah? Sadly, it just scrapes the surface.
I've been very fortunate to have found 2 shuls that have been nearby my residences and also the one online. Through these 3 places I've been in the company of about 200 people, Jewish and Gentile, and I don't think a one of them is playing "dress-up" or trying to be something that they are not. Everyone has been very earnest in their endeavors to follow Hashem's word. I'll grant you that at times we gentiles may be a little over zealous and look absolutely foolish - but it's been from a desire to learn and a desire to not offend our Jewish brethren.
We do it not to gain salvation but because we are saved, not to gain favor but because we are favored.

 

[yedida]

Visionary,
Concerning Yeshua and the adulterous woman: It's already been mentioned that the man should have been present, but wasn't.
As I see it, the woman probably was an adulteress but not actually caught in the act, otherwise, the man would have been taken also as proscribed. Therefore, there was no one willing to act as the 2 or more witnesses since they would be the first ones to throw the stones. In this case, that would have caused them to become false witnesses and worse, murderers. And they, in their lie, would have caused the others to become murderers. And as has been noted, Yeshua did not have the earthly authority to pass sentence anyway, and they all knew this.

 

[Desert Rose]

yedida,

you sound like a sincere and lovely girl, striving to please God.
And also it appears you have found a congregation where you can grow and worship and feel at peace.
I am still searching.

Blessings and may God be with you at all times,
DR

 

[visionary]

Visionary,
Concerning Yeshua and the adulterous woman: It's already been mentioned that the man should have been present, but wasn't.
As I see it, the woman probably was an adulteress but not actually caught in the act, otherwise, the man would have been taken also as proscribed. Therefore, there was no one willing to act as the 2 or more witnesses since they would be the first ones to throw the stones. In this case, that would have caused them to become false witnesses and worse, murderers. And they, in their lie, would have caused the others to become murderers. And as has been noted, Yeshua did not have the earthly authority to pass sentence anyway, and they all knew this.

There were so many ways of entrapment.. in this case thrown at Yeshua's feet... could easily have gone south.. if it wasn't for the fact Yeshua saw and had God's wisdom to walk through that land mine [mind] and come out unscathed.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Paul saw the Law as a "pedagogue," using the Greek word for a slave whose job it was to usher his master's child safely to school. According to Galatians 3:24, the job of the law was to usher us to "Christ" (the Messiah). Once the "pedagogue" has delivered the child, he lets go -- otherwise his job is not done! By the same token, once we have come to Messiah, we must "let go" of the law, because otherwise it will hold us back. (Galatians 4:9) (How can a child go to school if he refuses to get off the bus?)

Of course there are good principles in the law which can still be applied ("Thou shalt not steal" for example is still a very good idea), but there a many, many rules which would only be a burden to us now. To use the bus driver analogy again, there may be some things the bus driver told you as a child that are still useful today. It's still a good idea to look both ways before crossing the street, and not to get out of a vehicle until it has come to a complete stop. But if you refuse to chew gum because a bus driver forbade it twenty years ago, that's just silly. You are no longer under that authority.

If you find an idea in Old Testament law that helps you become the kind of person that exudes love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control (Galatians 5:22), then that's wonderful. Do that as long as it helps. But let it go as soon as you see that Keeping the Rule has become more important to you than these things. Paul said no law can match up to these things. (Galatians 5:23)


David Brown
AMF International

....most Messianic believers are not aware that the entire Rav Shaul historical scenario was contrived in the late 80s. Given that Rav Shaul's historical scenario was manufactured for a purpose, we need to investigate these reasons.

The statements below are taken from "Having Fun With Torah Observant Doctrine" on the Messianic Litearary Corner:

In the 1980s some Messianic Jewish teachers came up with the idea that they could reshape Messianic believers perception of the "Gospel of Grace" and "Torah Observance" by simply re-inventing the persona of the Apostle Paul into the "Torah Observant "Rabbi Shaul", all accepting of modern Messianic Jewish thought. In doing so, they had to develop an approach that would disregard the accurate history of Paul in his evolution from "Saul of Tarsus" persecutor of the Church in Israel and the Diaspora, to "the Apostle Paul", church founder, teacher and evangelist to both Jew and Gentile alike. They would have to sell to their flock the idea that Paul remained Torah observant, even while ministering to the Gentiles in the Greco/Roman provinces of Asia Minor. They also had to assert that the proselytes of Rabbi Shaul were Torah observant. The task of selling this "spin" was simple for most of the devoted believers within the Messianic Jewish movement, but much less so for those educated in Church history and New Covenant teachings. Was this error one of confusion or design on the part of some Messianic leaders? I am sure we will know one day.

There are erroneous motivations underlying Torah Observant Messianic Jewish believer's acceptance of either the "Rav Shaul" or "Heretic Paul" historical scenarios. If you read between the lines in some of their statements, you will find that Torah Observant Messianic believers who know their history only give "lip service" supporting "Rav Shaul", and are actually Anti-Paul and consider his teachings heretical.

In the USA, most Anti-Pauline Messianic Jewish believers hide behind the "Rav Shaul' history nonsense. In Israel though, most Anti-Paul MJs do not hide their sentiments concerning their opposition to Pauline doctrine. Most Messianic Jews that support the Rav Shaul or Heretic Paul historical scenario, do so for the sake of what they perceive to be a necessity. There is a good reason why Israeli MJs mostly hold to the Heretic Paul historical scenario. It is so because they know the true history of Paul and have no reason to hide behind such a historical fabrication. The Rav Shaul lie was constructed to successfully introduce Anti-Pauline doctrine into mostly the US church and MJ congregations.

The Israeli and supportive Anti-Paul teachers truly believe that only by holding to an erroneous viewpoint that supports obligatory Torah Observance will they successfully evangelize the Jewish people. This concept adopts a "Social Darwinist" form of self deception which comes right out of David Stern's book, "Messianic Jewish Manifesto". Social Darwinists justify promoting the "big lie" if it serves to promote the continuity of their social cause. It may have been a 'Freudian slip" when Stern used the term "manifesto" in his revolutionary book. Stern's use of Marx missed the Biblical mark!

So today, Gentile Messianic believers have swallowed the same bait that the earlier MJs did. They now have accepted Anti-Pauline doctrine without a fight by simply believing in a distorted historical portrait of Paul.

Hate when it feels that something you become aware of only later comes into view...and the light-bulb comes on . For I just realized not too long ago that you were Marshall Beeber, one of the Messianic Jewish teachers I really appreciated growing up!!!!


Thanks for noting as you did, especially with your analogies that you offered with the Bus concept. I've loved keeping up with the Messianic Literary Corner, though I was surprised to see that you actually have posted over here---as it seemed from your site that you may've been involved elsewhere. But I really enjoyed many of the things I was able to learn from your ministry of "Messianic Literary Corner"---and I've referenced your work before here. I saw you over with my other Messianic brothers/sisters at "The Rosh Pina Project" site a number of times when it came to discussing the Torah...as seen when they were discussing Antinomian Theology Within The TOM-J Movement

Again, many thanks for sharing as you did--as I agree 100% with where you're coming from (As do others) and its something that needs to be remembered within Messianic Judaism.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It is usually the Gentile believers who are so enamoured at what most MJs usually consider to be obsessive.

Below is a portion of an article written by Dr Alan Polner-Levison, Pastor/Rabbi of Beit Shalom Ministries in the UK.

The Messianic Movement
and its Perpetual Identity Crisis
Dr. Alan Poyner-Levison​

Since the Messianic Movement became buoyant in the foremost thinking of Jewish believers' lives, it has gone in many directions both doctrinally as well as positionally. What were at one time known as Hebrew Christians are now calling themselves Messianic Jews? This is because at that time Hebrew Christians were exactly that: Jewish Believers in Jesus or Christian Jews. However, we have lately seen the emergence of a sub group that has grown out of this sound messianic position, and have become named the Jewish Roots Movement. These are in the main Gentiles that have become aware of the Jewish roots of their faith, and working on the premise of Romans 11:17 that they were grafted into the Jewish root, they have adopted in some cases virtually the whole Rabbinic order of worship which is what they understand as being Jewish. They will argue that they are part of the one new man that Scripture speaks of in Ephesians 2:15, which makes them Jewish, so they should be partakers of all aspects of Jewish life. Now if this is not alarming enough, a third culture has also developed which calls itself the Two House Ephraimite Movement which teaches that the Gentile believers in Yeshua are the physical descendants of the ten lost tribes of the Kingdom of Israel which is also known as Ephraim; hence the title Ephraimite.

Now I ask you, where are we going as a movement? If we desire to be biblical we must comply with Paul’s request in 1 Corinthian 4:6, Do not go beyond that which is written, and Titus 1:9, Encourage others by sound doctrine, and refute those who oppose it, and 1 Corinthian’s 11:2, Keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.

If you desire to read more of this article and others, feel free to go to the Messianic Literary Corner, go to the Menu on the left side and click "Gentiles & Torah".

Great article. Thanks for sharing it...

 

[visionary]

By the way... the woman was caught in the "very act"...

John 8:4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.