Submitting Torah Observance To New Covenant Principles

[Desert Rose]

Oh, and i lost you on homosexuality too. Whats the point you were making, i am not sure? Sorry for being little slow

 

[TanteBelle]

As the nations get more and more into a torah'less mode we see more transgression of Torah. homosexuality is one of the more contemporary issues. Sure you can bring up the extreme situations, as CM has done, like the stoning of one who picks rods up on the Shabbat, but isnt this the same challenge, and for the same reason, they put to Yeshua, saying, she was found to be adulterous so why dont you stone her? In fact during that time this commandment was never enforced but adultery was still seen as sin by Yeshua (so they basically were saying if you think its really a sin then go ahead and follow Torah as you say you do)...

I'm kinda not getting what you are on about with the woman caught in adultery, sorry sir. I know that Christianity likes to interpret that one as saying, 'Well, we're all sinners, so don't judge me!' which is not what it is about at all.

As for the issue with the bloke who picked up sticks on the Shabbat, personally, I think there was more to it than simply 'he picked up some sticks'. Could he have been blantantly testing God? He might have needed to light a fire for an emergency but didn't have enough for it and so instead of going to a neighbour and asking, was too proud to ask and so went out himself. I don't know but I do think that there is more to that story than simply he picked up some sticks.

 

[chetermezacha]

Those who promote following Torah will always have extreme cases in Torah put to them to see if they actually do or not. Like when you see someone on here saying we need to follow the ways of Torah, then someone will say, 'so you stone a person for picking up wood on Shabbat' (although this is the wrong question, what we should be asking is how difficult is it not to transgress the Shabbat- but anyway). This tactic is nothing new and was one used against Yeshua in the example given, they brought a woman to him who they said had committed adultery. So if this Yeshua does actually follow Torah then he will follow the judgements of it, which they tell us is stoning. (at the 1st century this punishment was not enforced so it was, and everyone there knew, just to try and provoke and trap Yeshua in this own teaching). The very fact Yeshua forgave her sin means that although he saw her actions as a sin, because it transgressed Torah, his punishment was different from the one Moses prescribed. What happens today is that instead of recognising some thing to be a sin (because the punishment of Moses might seem harsh) they simply edit out the sin altogether. This is why the Shabbat isnt observed, this is why the festivals are not observed, this is many of the commandments are ignored, changed, or said to be immoral, this is why you will often find homosexual clergy...in fact the main argument for christian homosexuals is basically along the lines of, 'we dont follow the rest of the commandments (except the so-called 10 commandments) so why follow the laws concerning homosexuals' indeed their argument is right, you either try to follow it all, or you drop it all, we cannot cherry pick commandments of G-d.

 

[TanteBelle]

Those who promote following Torah will always have extreme cases in Torah put to them to see if they actually do or not. Like when you see someone on here saying we need to follow the ways of Torah, then someone will say, 'so you stone a person for picking up wood on Shabbat' (although this is the wrong question, what we should be asking is how difficult is it not to transgress the Shabbat- but anyway). This tactic is nothing new and was one used against Yeshua in the example given, they brought a woman to him who they said had committed adultery. So if this Yeshua does actually follow Torah then he will follow the judgements of it, which they tell us is stoning. (at the 1st century this punishment was not enforced so it was, and everyone there knew, just to try and provoke and trap Yeshua in this own teaching). The very fact Yeshua forgave her sin means that although he saw her actions as a sin, because it transgressed Torah, his punishment was different from the one Moses prescribed. What happens today is that instead of recognising some thing to be a sin (because the punishment of Moses might seem harsh) they simply edit out the sin altogether. This is why the Shabbat isnt observed, this is why the festivals are not observed, this is many of the commandments are ignored, changed, or said to be immoral, this is why you will often find homosexual clergy...in fact the main argument for christian homosexuals is basically along the lines of, 'we dont follow the rest of the commandments (except the so-called 10 commandments) so why follow the laws concerning homosexuals' indeed their argument is right, you either try to follow it all, or you drop it all, we cannot cherry pick commandments of G-d.

Personally, I think I'll have to disagree there. They stoned Stephen and no one raised a voice against it. The point to me that Yeshua was making with the case with the woman was that the entire 'court' was sin! She was caught in the act and was guilty. There's no question about that! But why didn't Yeshua allow the punishment to follow through? Because torah says that both the woman and the man are to be brought forth. The man isn't there. For whatever reasons, we aren't told but there's no mention of the man being brought forth. So, to start off with, it's an unfair trail. Secondly, the accused were to be brought forth to the high priest; Yeshua wasn't the high priest. We know Him to be our high priest but He didn't come to take the reigns of government in Israel. So to me, when Yeshua says, 'Whoever is without sin, cast the first stone', it should be said, 'Whoever is without sin in this matter, cast the first stone.' Otherwise, Yeshua is saying that God was not just in allowing a ruler of the people (a 'sinner') to stone someone in the OT. For Him to mean, 'In this matter', that puts everyone at that trail guilty. Otherwise, they would have probably been able to stone Yeshua for breaking torah in allowing an adulterous woman 'off the hook'.

And to say that laws such as stoning were made by Moses, that's to say that God allowed Moses to put words in God's mouth that were never there! Talk about adding to torah!

 

[Steve Petersen]

i agree with you on some points, even you lost me in the end a bit. I am not here to convince anybody of anything, prove a POV right or wrong, i am just too lazy for that and see no practical point. I wish to learn something.I am very practical person. I dislike demagoguery that conceils the truth.

so let be more direct . May i tell you, brother - i dont undertand how is that you insist that Torah havent changed. Ok, you say yourself that punishments are not required anymore, they are old, outdated, so bye- bye that piece of Torah.

What about uncleanness laws? Something that we spooked another guy off the forums with - You are striving to be a good husband i am sure. When MRS is sick, you are required not to touch her, not to fix her blanket, not to give her cough syrup, hug, love, kiss, support etc. BY Leviticus, if that is the wrong time of the month for her.

So that rule is bye- bye, too. You not obeying it. There are a ton of stuff in Torah that is old, immoral and outdated.

Actually - I truly wish some kind MJ soul would tell me - What from the Torah do you observe? Outside of moral laws.

Context of most uncleaness was that it made one ineligible to enter the Temple precincts. Pharisees chose to extend these prohibitions outside of that context. Orthodox Judaism inherited that perspective.

When there is a Temple again, and if one plans on visiting it, then these laws will have real relevance.

 

[visionary]

Maybe that is when the glory of Israel will be revealed.

Romans 9:4
the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.

Luke 2:32
a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel."

 

[Desert Rose]

Context of most uncleaness was that it made one ineligible to enter the Temple precincts. Pharisees chose to extend these prohibitions outside of that context. Orthodox Judaism inherited that perspective.

When there is a Temple again, and if one plans on visiting it, then these laws will have real relevance.

Exactly my point!!

that is why i asked - what DO you observe? There is almost nothing left to be bragging about , not to the point to be braggin as much as some MJ do, as if they are best and all the rest of believers are second class , and that is upsetting.

there is very few things, that MJ observe and christians dont. There shouldnt be that much division between us. I wish more MJ were taking the position of unity and mutual enrichment, not "I am soooo holier then thou , you dirty chrisitan dog" .. Oh, well. Who's perfect? no one

 

[anisavta]

I find it interesting that those who would rather "have it their way and do their own thing" and label it grace, or free will or whatever will lean heavy on the punishments prescribed but won't address the issue which caused the punishment. "So why don't we stone people for adultery anymore?" Shouldn't the focus be -" how can I keep from even a lustful thought that is no different from the act itself?" We are so busy justifying why we don't exact such heavy consequences so that we can justify ignoring the commands of G~d?

 

[visionary]

I would rather see Yeshua's redemptive work justified in us.

 

[chetermezacha]

Exactly my point!!

that is why i asked - what DO you observe? There is almost nothing left to be bragging about , not to the point to be braggin as much as some MJ do, as if they are best and all the rest of believers are second class , and that is upsetting.

there is very few things, that MJ observe and christians dont. There shouldnt be that much division between us. I wish more MJ were taking the position of unity and mutual enrichment, not "I am soooo holier then thou , you dirty chrisitan dog" .. Oh, well. Who's perfect? no one

I really dont see things the way you do indeed, although i am not a true messianic as I follow Torah as much as any other sect does in mainstream Judaism although with the exception I know Yeshua is the Messiah but there is not a 'holier that than' attitude at all...when I follow the ways and things G-d tells me to follow I do it to please him, not to look holier than anyone, I have been in very dangerous positions (one time in Bethlechem when it was being handed over to Arafat a mob was chasing me because I was wearing kippur and tzitzit, I wasnt wearing them to look better than anyone else and know i was in danger by doing so, but still i did it. I do not eat meat that is unkosher, I do not eat pig meat, donkey meat, human meat, I do not eat other unkosher meat even when I have had no food for a few days. I do not do these things because I want to be holier I do them because I am told to, and like an ignorant child i try to listen to all he tells me, even though I dont understand the why, or sometimes even the how. And I know others are the same that I know, who keep the commands...its what we do, as Yeshua said, behind closed doors, its why we wear short tzitzit and not wide tefflin, as Yeshua said, to know flaunt our rightiousness but do it in secret for he sees all done in secret.

As for the unity, yes I would like to see unity (as it is written, how joyful is it when brothers dwell in unity, it is like the oil on the head, even Aarons head, like the dew of Hermon, running down the body, giving life--the high priest is Yeshua he is the head of the body and onto which the anointed oil is poured) but that is never going to be at the expense of following the ways of G-d and his commandments. I know many in the MJ movement want a unity more in connection with Judaism and I also know they want to retain Christian unity but non of these connections should be at the expense of doing what is right. You have to understand this point and not get upset with people if they speak plainly, at least they do that and not tell you honey in the ear. Even though Yeshua sat at the table of the prostitute it did not make him one, even though he sat at the table of the pharisees it did not mean he changed his teachings to suit his company. i am not saying you dont get the holier than thou among the MJ as on occasion you do, as in any group you do, but most understand following Torah not to be airs and pretense but our duty as people of the nation, after all if i do not say the Shmar then who will? do I sit and hope that someone will? or do I do it to make sure G-d hears the voice of one calling to him.

Most people think the Pharisees were seen as holier than thou attitude 'because they kept the law', well actually most of them didnt, if they did they would have known who the Messiah was (of cause many did and those did know who he was, the likes of Nakdemon, Gamiliel, Paul, Acts 15:5 mentions many more pharisees who were among the disciples). What the pharisees actually did was create a Halachah which was what they kept and by keeping Halachah they created notions of self-righteousness, this is what self-righteousness is, to define righteousness based on human traditions rather than how G-d describes righteousness to be .

Yes many will say only through Yeshua we can be righteous but even Yeshua said that Abraham was righteous and also as well as Yeshua raising from the dead many other righteous Israelites also rose, and Yeshua tells us to not sin--to try and be righteous, he never gave us a free ticket to not be righteous under the assumption that one who tries to be righteous is self-righteous, didnt he say out righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees?

 

[Desert Rose]

so, to get to the essence - you dont eat pigs, what written Torah doesnt allow you to. Good. What else you do? Holy Days?

Please, concise and to the point. I am here to learn something -not about Judaism, but how doing things that you do isn't just a stylish or selfpleasing thing for you, chet, to do. If you guys ( and girls) are unwilling to share, fine.

I lived what you like to call" torah lifestyle". Holy Days, repentance in judaism, major postulates of tanach- i know it and currently teach that in my church class. People seem to be enjoying it and getting into it , hopefully not as fashionable thing to try like stylish "left behind" books, etc, but to enrich their view of God.

But I know how many people pbserve what you call "Torah laws" just for the sake of showoff. There are many people that observe Torah laws superficially, letter, not the spirit. They are not even believers, no J no MJ.

I thought i might give it another chance. But nobody seem to be willing to share I keep asking what ( exactly) do you observe? How is it good for you? Nobody seem to say much..... Maybe MJ as a denom is indeed not for me..

 

[chetermezacha]

so, to get to the essence - you dont eat pigs, what written Torah doesnt allow you to. Good. What else you do? Holy Days?

Please, concise and to the point. I am here to learn something -not about Judaism, but how doing things that you do isn't just a stylish or selfpleasing thing for you, chet, to do. If you guys ( and girls) are unwilling to share, fine.

I lived what you like to call" torah lifestyle". Holy Days, repentance in judaism, major postulates of tanach- i know it and currently teach that in my church class. People seem to be enjoying it and getting into it , hopefully not as fashionable thing to try like stylish "left behind" books, etc, but to enrich their view of God.

But I know how many people pbserve what you call "Torah laws" just for the sake of showoff. There are many people that observe Torah laws superficially, letter, not the spirit. They are not even believers, no J no MJ.

I thought i might give it another chance. But nobody seem to be willing to share I keep asking what ( exactly) do you observe? How is it good for you? Nobody seem to say much..... Maybe MJ as a denom is indeed not for me..

Im not too sure of what you asking for Desert Rose, I cant possibly write a day to day account of what I do and dont do surely you dont expect this? I follow the Torah, the way I eat, dress, walk by the way, the way I lay down and rise up, as we are told to do. I observe all the festivals as half of them are yet to be fulfilled and those that were fulfilled we were commanded to keep in remembrance of what was done and yes this all enriches our knowledge of G-d and his realm, once we get past the basics which is to do what he commands..even though it might not make sense or that it might be outdated, we still do it and this is faith, and faithfulness to him.

I will often hear someone say to me, 'Well I can understand the commandment to not pick all the fruit of the ground to leave food for the poor but I dont understand why its important to not eat pigs' but someone who only follows something because they understand the reason is someone without faith. First comes trust in his wisdom then comes knowledge of his wisdom.

As for those that follow because they want to show off, well you will find this any place and in anything. I guarantee you 70-80% of the average church goers pay lips services also, this raises in more traditional denominations. Although in non traditional, such as the Charismatic movements, half of the people there are spouses being dragged along for the sake of it, putting on a show they are saved, shouting to the Lord, even the false prophets in the time of Eli did this, it is nothing new. But I rarely see this among the MJ, you have to understand we are between two camps, nothing fun doing that I assure you but we are not in the Christian camp and we are exiles from our own people, and we are at war, with the impending domination of an Islamic world order, you really think we give a damn about looking pretty. My armour is the armour of righteousness and i dont care what that is like as long as it is from the boss upstairs.

 

[Desert Rose]

As for those that follow because they want to show off, well you will find this any place and in anything. I guarantee you 70-80% of the average church goers pay lips services also, this raises in more traditional denominations.

oh, i totally agree!
i was wondering if MJ is worth the try. I will keep observing maybe i will see it as such at time goes by

 

[anisavta]

I've noticed the opposite in some denoms. as far as showing off - to show how many freedoms they can get away with. How close to the boundary they can get without falling off.
In my little band of MJs no one is trying to show off. We're all just trying to do what G~d commanded us to do in the first place.
I keep Shabbat because He told me to. I observe the festivals because He told me to. I refuse the foods that are written down in Torah because He told me to refuse them.
It has nothing to do with making myself look good. It has everything to do with obedience and honor. Which is something that while in the Christian world I was told was not synonymous with old archaic laws that didn't apply to me anymore. I was told the only law I needed to follow was the law of love and of Christ - whatever those were - I was just suppose to know them because the Holy Spirit was suppose to tell me what they were.

 

[Lulav]

Kefa is NOT referring to the Torah in that verse, CM. He is referring to the unbearable persecution the Jews had to endure. If the Goyim underwent ritual circumcision, they would have been identified by the surrounding community as Jewish, and as such, would have been persecuted as Jews. They would have been placed under the ficus judaicus tax, and other such things. The Torah is never considered as an unbearable yoke anywhere in Scripture. That's a common false presupposition.

Actually, it IS Scriptural, and your interpretation that the Torah is an unbearable yoke is unscriptural:


Shalom

I always understood what James was saying was in reference to the 'yoke' that Yeshua spoke of of the oral law that the Pharisees put upon the people?

Yeshua has a yoke that ties us to him, the covenant, the commandments of his Father. This yoke is not hard to bear. Even Moses tells us the same thing.

5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed , saying , That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

This specifies a specific sect of the Pharisees. As far as the 'Law of Moses' they believed that what they had added on to it was still the Law of Moses and that was what was so hard to bear. Fence after fence added around the original commandments as well as the import of what they thought was more important.

We need a yoke, if not we do not belong. I myself like having a 'yoke' that binds me to the Holy One, why anyone would not want this is beyond me. That Yoke is the marriage contract. No yoke, no marriage contract, no Husband, you are no Bride.

 

[TanteBelle]

oh, i totally agree!
i was wondering if MJ is worth the try. I will keep observing maybe i will see it as such at time goes by

Rather than trying to find a 'group' to fit in with, why not just take your own walk of faith and see where it gets you. I may be Messianic, but I am not attached to any group or church or synagogue. The Bible is our only authority and we live our faith by what we believe. We don't fit a lot of Messianic groups and we certainly don't fit Christianity! 'Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.' Not, go look for someone whom you think may have it all. You don't pick sides. The only side you can pick is the truth. If others are standing there with you, then your not picking sides with them or them with you. You are standing with the truth. That's my outlook on it anyway.

As for what we observe, we keep the Shabbat, the 7 festivals, the food laws (though there are some that we disagree with the Jews and Messianics on), we try as much as we can to live torah. We don't believe in the necessity of head coverings and tzitzits but we don't have anything against anyone wanting to wear them. I'm still learning on the tzitzit part.

 

[TanteBelle]

Im not too sure of what you asking for Desert Rose, I cant possibly write a day to day account of what I do and dont do surely you dont expect this? I follow the Torah, the way I eat, dress, walk by the way, the way I lay down and rise up, as we are told to do. I observe all the festivals as half of them are yet to be fulfilled and those that were fulfilled we were commanded to keep in remembrance of what was done and yes this all enriches our knowledge of G-d and his realm, once we get past the basics which is to do what he commands..even though it might not make sense or that it might be outdated, we still do it and this is faith, and faithfulness to him.

I will often hear someone say to me, 'Well I can understand the commandment to not pick all the fruit of the ground to leave food for the poor but I dont understand why its important to not eat pigs' but someone who only follows something because they understand the reason is someone without faith. First comes trust in his wisdom then comes knowledge of his wisdom.

As for those that follow because they want to show off, well you will find this any place and in anything. I guarantee you 70-80% of the average church goers pay lips services also, this raises in more traditional denominations. Although in non traditional, such as the Charismatic movements, half of the people there are spouses being dragged along for the sake of it, putting on a show they are saved, shouting to the Lord, even the false prophets in the time of Eli did this, it is nothing new. But I rarely see this among the MJ, you have to understand we are between two camps, nothing fun doing that I assure you but we are not in the Christian camp and we are exiles from our own people, and we are at war, with the impending domination of an Islamic world order, you really think we give a damn about looking pretty. My armour is the armour of righteousness and i dont care what that is like as long as it is from the boss upstairs.

In response to the bold, while they may represent past events, when you line them all up, they are also the beautiful pattern for salvation! Starting with the acceptance of the Blood and crucifying the 'old man', then 7 days of purging out sin/leaven, ..... all the way down to Messiah coming back to reign on earth! I thank my Pa for showing me that revelation!!!

 

[chetermezacha]

In response to the bold, while they may represent past events, when you line them all up, they are also the beautiful pattern for salvation! Starting with the acceptance of the Blood and crucifying the 'old man', then 7 days of purging out sin/leaven, ..... all the way down to Messiah coming back to reign on earth! I thank my Pa for showing me that revelation!!!

yes the festivals and all to do with them descibe the entire existance of this world, till it is reborn. The search for Aviv begins the year as John came to search Israel to see if it was in a state of Aviv, (maturity) then Passover and Shavuot but following this is a long period of summer in which no festivals are done and through a time in which, we are told through all the prophets, is a time when nations and people and even the house of Judah and Ephraim will create their own beliefs and personal religion. Then we have the end festivals, complete with the time of Judgement which takes place in the valley of kings, afterwards the rightious live in a city that will be known as G-d is with us, the name of the city is his name; which is the meaning of Succot...remember when Yeshua met Enoch and Eli in the cloud and the disciples saw this they thought it was succot rigth then, the reign of King Messiah then and this is why he said, 'it is good we are here so we can build you a succah' but he told them this was not the time, this was his first appearance in which he came to redeem.

 

[TanteBelle]

yes the festivals and all to do with them descibe the entire existance of this world, till it is reborn. The search for Aviv begins the year as John came to search Israel to see if it was in a state of Aviv, (maturity) then Passover and Shavuot but following this is a long period of summer in which no festivals are done and through a time in which, we are told through all the prophets, is a time when nations and people and even the house of Judah and Ephraim will create their own beliefs and personal religion. Then we have the end festivals, complete with the time of Judgement which takes place in the valley of kings, afterwards the rightious live in a city that will be known as G-d is with us, the name of the city is his name; which is the meaning of Succot...remember when Yeshua met Enoch and Eli in the cloud and the disciples saw this they thought it was succot rigth then, the reign of King Messiah then and this is why he said, 'it is good we are here so we can build you a succah' but he told them this was not the time, this was his first appearance in which he came to redeem.

Hmm, never heard that explanation before!

 

[visionary]

yes the festivals and all to do with them descibe the entire existance of this world, till it is reborn. The search for Aviv begins the year as John came to search Israel to see if it was in a state of Aviv, (maturity) then Passover and Shavuot but following this is a long period of summer in which no festivals are done and through a time in which, we are told through all the prophets, is a time when nations and people and even the house of Judah and Ephraim will create their own beliefs and personal religion. Then we have the end festivals, complete with the time of Judgement which takes place in the valley of kings, afterwards the rightious live in a city that will be known as G-d is with us, the name of the city is his name; which is the meaning of Succot...remember when Yeshua met Enoch and Eli in the cloud and the disciples saw this they thought it was succot rigth then, the reign of King Messiah then and this is why he said, 'it is good we are here so we can build you a succah' but he told them this was not the time, this was his first appearance in which he came to redeem.

Nice succot tie in...