Submission.

[Root of Jesse]

Exactly. Since when do you refer to a person as a 'this'?
It's seems pretty obvious to me the 'this' Jesus is talking about is Pete's revelation.


Funny thing is when I once pointed out that in the very same chapter Jesus turns to Peter and calls him Satan, one Catholic told me that Jesus wasn't really referring to Peter.
So when Jesus turns to face Peter and says "Get behind me Satan,You are an offence to me" it's not really referring to Peter, but when he uses the word 'this' instead of 'you' it's definitely referring to Peter?

Actually, he was speaking to Peter. When Peter heeded the Holy Spirit and proclaimed Jesus the Christ, he was under the Spirit's influence, which is why Jesus would build the Church on him. When Peter said that he wouldn't let Jesus suffer, he was using his earthly instinct, which came from Satan.
Human beings are not either holy or not. They are, at times, holy, and at other times not. It's possible for one to be saint and sinner at the same time. Jesus' rebuke of Peter in no way prohibits him from being the cornerstone of the Church. And naming Peter as such in no way excludes Jesus from being the head of the Church.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Strong's Concordance
Képhas: "a rock," Cephas, a name given to the apostle Peter
Original Word: Κηφᾶς, ᾶ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: Képhas
Phonetic Spelling: (kay-fas')
Short Definition: Cephas
Definition: Cephas (Aramaic for rock), the new name given to Simon Peter, the apostle.

Isaiah 28:16
16 Therefore thus says The Lord Jehovah: Indeed I lay a stone in Zion as a foundation, A tested stone, A precious cornerstone as a foundation firmly established; He who believes will not hasten away.

1 Peter 2:4
Coming to Him, a living stone, rejected by men but with God chosen and precious,

1 Corinthians 3:11
For another foundation no one is able to lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Strong's Concordance
Képhas: "a rock," Cephas, a name given to the apostle Peter
Original Word: Κηφᾶς, ᾶ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: Képhas
Phonetic Spelling: (kay-fas')
Short Definition: Cephas
Definition: Cephas (Aramaic for rock), the new name given to Simon Peter, the apostle.

Right. Nothing about big rock, little rock, pebble, or boulder. Just Rock.

The C and the K are interchangeable. The apostle Peter's name was Simon, son of Jonah. Jesus changed it to Kephas or Cephas. When God changes a man's (or woman's) name, it's significant. Just ask Abraham or Eve. Also Israel.

 

[sunlover1]

Because we all know that God would build His kingdom on some mortal.
Makes PERFECT sense.
No?
Tell me more, tell me more.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Because we all know that God would build His kingdom on some mortal.
Makes PERFECT sense.
No?
Tell me more, tell me more.

Yes, God does build his kingdom on a man. God became a man. Your post makes it seem like being a man is a bad thing. It isn't. Christ raised humanity from the earth to heaven and offers the faithful to share in his nature. Saint Peter and his successors are among the men to whom this promise is made, if your arguments must mock then mock something that is not raised up by God.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Because we all know that God would build His kingdom on some mortal.
Makes PERFECT sense.
No?
Tell me more, tell me more.

God did build his earthly kingdom on some mortal. No? Heavenly kingdom, Different story. Peter is his vicar. His representative on earth. Popes are Peter's successors, again Jesus' representative on earth, regardless of how fallen we all are. The Holy Spirit guides him.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Right. Nothing about big rock, little rock, pebble, or boulder. Just Rock.

The C and the K are interchangeable. The apostle Peter's name was Simon, son of Jonah. Jesus changed it to Kephas or Cephas. When God changes a man's (or woman's) name, it's significant. Just ask Abraham or Eve. Also Israel.

The church is being built upon, a growth in process, proceeding from the foundation of Christ and His teachings to the apostles, in whom all of us are knitted together to produce by the Holy Spirit the living temple of God, His dwelling place.

Ephesians 2:20-22
built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone. 21 In him the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built together spiritually into a dwelling place for God.

ekklesia, meaning an out-calling. This word is used in reference to a called-out congregation. My church indicates that the church is of the Lord, not of any other person or thing; it is not like the denominations, which are denominated according to some person's name or according to some matter.

Greetings to those Rom 16:4 ... who risked their necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Saint Peter is the Rock in Matthew 16:18.

How does one submit to the church, or is that not something you want to submit to?

 

[katerinah1947]

God did build his earthly kingdom on some mortal. No? Heavenly kingdom, Different story. Peter is his vicar. His representative on earth. Popes are Peter's successors, again Jesus' representative on earth, regardless of how fallen we all are. The Holy Spirit guides him.

Hi,
How perfectly? How perfectly?
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

 

[Rick Otto]

God did build his earthly kingdom on some mortal. No?

No.
John.18

[36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

 

[sunlover1]

God did build his earthly kingdom on some mortal. No? Heavenly kingdom, Different story. Peter is his vicar. His representative on earth. Popes are Peter's successors, again Jesus' representative on earth, regardless of how fallen we all are. The Holy Spirit guides him.

Kingdom is Kingdom.
Heavenly is where we ARE:

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us,
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ
—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with
Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable
riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

No.
John.18

[36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

How does one submit to the church, or is that not something you want to submit to?

How does the RC Denomination submit to the church? Could you quote it itself talking about how it submits to the church? Is it something it refuses to do but constantly shouts must be done?


Seems to me the RCC shouts constantly about the importance, the necessity, the mandate of submission. It just doesn't do what it preaches, it does the opposite: it demands that all submit to it itself as unto God Himself. CCC 87, etc. What it does is the exact opposite of what it says must be done.





.

 

[katerinah1947]

How does the RC Denomination submit to the church? Could you quote it itself talking about how it submits to the church? Is it something it refuses to do but constantly shouts must be done?


Seems to me the RCC shouts constantly about the importance, the necessity, the mandate of submission. It just doesn't do what it preaches, it does the opposite: it demands that all submit to it itself as unto God Himself. CCC 87, etc. What it does is the exact opposite of what it says must be done.





.

Okay here it is. In context, please show me their shouting?
III. THE INTERPRETATION OF THE HERITAGE OF FAITH

The heritage of faith entrusted to the whole of the Church

84 The apostles entrusted the "Sacred deposit" of the faith (the depositum fidei),45 contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. "By adhering to [this heritage] the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practicing and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful."46

The Magisterium of the Church

85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48

87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me",49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

The dogmas of the faith

88 The Church's Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these.

LOVE,
...Kate., .... .

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

CakiforniaJosiah, diverting the question serves what purpose?

Showing how the RCC does the antithesis of what the RCC insists be done gets to the heart of the issue.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

It's holy scripture that calls for submission to one's presbyters.

 

[Supreme]

MOD HAT ON

Thread has undergone a clean. Please keep it civil, and do not goad one another.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[Rick Otto]

Yes, God does build his kingdom on a man. God became a man. Your post makes it seem like being a man is a bad thing. It isn't. Christ raised humanity from the earth to heaven and offers the faithful to share in his nature. Saint Peter and his successors are among the men to whom this promise is made, if your arguments must mock then mock something that is not raised up by God.

The way you state your objection makes it seem like Peter was equal to Jesus,... which in a way makes him equal to God.
Which is in a way, mocking God Himself.

Perhaps we could agree to be more forgiving and less demanding of accommodation.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I happen to be an elder (presbyter) of my church, so I am in the role.

I don't expect the congregation members to be subject to me as if I have some kind of authority over them. There is nothing in Scripture that gives me the right to tell members what to do in their lives. Jesus has all authority in heaven and in earth and He has always kept it and has never given it to anyone else. The elder role is a position of responsibility. The "buck" stops at me as far as spiritual direction of the church goes (I am the Session Clerk, which is the "top job" in the eldership, but even that is a responsibility role and I still only have one vote in the decision making).

We have power of attorney to use the authority of the Name of Christ to deal with sickness, disease and demons. But it would be a misuse of authority to try and use it to control the personal lives of members and to dictate how they should behave.

Of course, everything in the church meetings should be done decently and in order, so if a member behaves contrary to that, then the elders have a responsibility to sort things out and bring things back into order.

The church went through some serious problems during the 1970s and 1980s because of the shepherding/discipling movement where people assumed "authority" and assigned themselves as mentors to others. This seriously damaged many lives and the fruit of it showed the demonic nature of the doctrine. The problem was that these "mentors" dictated over every aspect of the subjects' lives even to the point of what job they should have, who they should marry, who there friends should be, what books they should be reading, etc., etc. Nowhere in Scripture does the Lord ever give that kind of authority to anyone. I believe that these "shepherds" came close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit because they were usurping His role in the lives of believers.

As far as members' moral lives are concerned, as an elder, I have only an advisory role, and all I can do is to point out those aspects of Scripture that may apply to their situation. I cannot dictate what they should decide in the light of that.

So, I believe that subjection in the Biblical sense is a respect for the role of elder, and to listen to godly advice, and to conduct themselves appropriately during church meetings and services, and to perform the roles given to them in the church.

As an elder, I have the responsibility of encouraging the members to find the will of God for their lives and to follow the great commission in the area where the Holy Spirit opens the way for them. I have a responsibility to preach and teach the Word so that the members are built up in their faith. I also have a responsibility to ensure that the management of church in money and property matters is well done so that the mission to the community is always made possible.

 

[katerinah1947]

I happen to be an elder (presbyter) of my church, so I am in the role.

I don't expect the congregation members to be subject to me as if I have some kind of authority over them. There is nothing in Scripture that gives me the right to tell members what to do in their lives. Jesus has all authority in heaven and in earth and He has always kept it and has never given it to anyone else. The elder role is a position of responsibility. The "buck" stops at me as far as spiritual direction of the church goes (I am the Session Clerk, which is the "top job" in the eldership, but even that is a responsibility role and I still only have one vote in the decision making).

We have power of attorney to use the authority of the Name of Christ to deal with sickness, disease and demons. But it would be a misuse of authority to try and use it to control the personal lives of members and to dictate how they should behave.

Of course, everything in the church meetings should be done decently and in order, so if a member behaves contrary to that, then the elders have a responsibility to sort things out and bring things back into order.

The church went through some serious problems during the 1970s and 1980s because of the shepherding/discipling movement where people assumed "authority" and assigned themselves as mentors to others. This seriously damaged many lives and the fruit of it showed the demonic nature of the doctrine. The problem was that these "mentors" dictated over every aspect of the subjects' lives even to the point of what job they should have, who they should marry, who there friends should be, what books they should be reading, etc., etc. Nowhere in Scripture does the Lord ever give that kind of authority to anyone. I believe that these "shepherds" came close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit because they were usurping His role in the lives of believers.

As far as members' moral lives are concerned, as an elder, I have only an advisory role, and all I can do is to point out those aspects of Scripture that may apply to their situation. I cannot dictate what they should decide in the light of that.

So, I believe that subjection in the Biblical sense is a respect for the role of elder, and to listen to godly advice, and to conduct themselves appropriately during church meetings and services, and to perform the roles given to them in the church.

As an elder, I have the responsibility of encouraging the members to find the will of God for their lives and to follow the great commission in the area where the Holy Spirit opens the way for them. I have a responsibility to preach and teach the Word so that the members are built up in their faith. I also have a responsibility to ensure that the management of church in money and property matters is well done so that the mission to the community is always made possible.

Hi,
Wow, thanks!
LOVE and love,
...Katie., .... .

 

[Rick Otto]

Hi,
Wow, thanks!
LOVE and love,
...Katie., .... .

Yeah, that was pretty awesome.