Submission.

[MoreCoffee]

Jesus sent the apostles out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal (Lk 9:2). Simon Peter holds the first place in the college of the Twelve (see Mk 3:16; 9:2; Lk 24:34; 1 Cor 15:5.); Jesus entrusted a unique mission to him. To saint Peter Jesus said "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it." (Mt 16:18) The Lord Jesus Christ thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Saint Peter's mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his brothers in it (Lk 22:32).

The Lord Jesus Christ entrusted a specific authority to Peter: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) The “power of the keys” designates authority to govern the house of God, which is the Church. Jesus, the Good Shepherd, confirmed this mandate after his Resurrection: “Feed my sheep.” (Jn 21:15–17; cf. 10:11). The power to “bind and loose” connotes the authority to absolve sins, to pronounce doctrinal judgements, and to make disciplinary decisions in the Church. Jesus entrusted this authority to the Church through the ministry of the apostles (Mt 18:18) and in particular through the ministry of Peter, the only one to whom he specifically entrusted the keys of the kingdom.

(See the Catechism of the Catholic Church sections 551 to 553)

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

1. Prove - from verbatim words of the NT - that "keys" means "unmitigated, unaccountable power to lord it over others as the gentiles do, to call all to submit to self alone as unto God alone."


2. Prove - from the verbatim words of the NT - that these "keys" were given to Peter as an individual based on his indentity rather than as one who professed what he just did.


3. Prove - from the verbatim words of the NT - that Jesus told Peter that he could re-gift the "keys" to whomever he chose and all you proved in #1 passes on.


4. Prove - from the verbatim words of the NT - that Peter gave these keys to someone. Record that event in the verbatim words of Scripture.


5. Prove - from the verbatim words of the NT - that JESUS specifically told Peter that not only could PETER re-gift these "keys" but also that the individual, exclusive RC Denomination could steal the "keys" from him and anyone else and then the RC Denomination itself (exclusively, individually) is to re-gift them to someone else - in perpetuity.


6. Prove - from the verbatim words of the NT - that the individual RC Denomination is indentical with the person of Peter; that whatever applied to Peter ergo applies fully and exclusively and individually to the RC Denomination alone.


.

Jesus sent the apostles out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal (Lk 9:2). Simon Peter holds the first place in the college of the Twelve (see Mk 3:16; 9:2; Lk 24:34; 1 Cor 15:5.); Jesus entrusted a unique mission to him. To saint Peter Jesus said "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it." (Mt 16:18) The Lord Jesus Christ thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Saint Peter's mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his brothers in it (Lk 22:32).

The Lord Jesus Christ entrusted a specific authority to Peter: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) The “power of the keys” designates authority to govern the house of God, which is the Church. Jesus, the Good Shepherd, confirmed this mandate after his Resurrection: “Feed my sheep.” (Jn 21:15–17; cf. 10:11). The power to “bind and loose” connotes the authority to absolve sins, to pronounce doctrinal judgements, and to make disciplinary decisions in the Church. Jesus entrusted this authority to the Church through the ministry of the apostles (Mt 18:18) and in particular through the ministry of Peter, the only one to whom he specifically entrusted the keys of the kingdom.

(See the Catechism of the Catholic Church sections 551 to 553)

So you can't do ANYTHING of these things....


You can personally "reckon" stuff........ nice. And it seems you can parrot some baseless stuff from your individual denomination..... good. But you have NOTHING to REMOTELY support your claim as true. Nothing.


To the issue of the thread, see post # 3.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

1. Prove - from verbatim words of the NT - that "keys" means "unmitigated, unaccountable power to lord it over others as the gentiles do, to call all to submit to self alone as unto God alone."


2. Prove - from the verbatim words of the NT - that these "keys" were given to Peter as an individual based on his indentity rather than as one who professed what he just did.


3. Prove - from the verbatim words of the NT - that Jesus told Peter that he could re-gift the "keys" to whomever he chose and all you proved in #1 passes on.


4. Prove - from the verbatim words of the NT - that Peter gave these keys to someone. Record that event in the verbatim words of Scripture.


5. Prove - from the verbatim words of the NT - that JESUS specifically told Peter that not only could PETER re-gift these "keys" but also that the individual, exclusive RC Denomination could steal the "keys" from him and anyone else and then the RC Denomination itself (exclusively, individually) is to re-gift them to someone else - in perpetuity.


6. Prove - from the verbatim words of the NT - that the individual RC Denomination is indentical with the person of Peter; that whatever applied to Peter ergo applies fully and exclusively and individually to the RC Denomination alone.


.

Jesus sent the apostles out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal (Lk 9:2). Simon Peter holds the first place in the college of the Twelve (see Mk 3:16; 9:2; Lk 24:34; 1 Cor 15:5.); Jesus entrusted a unique mission to him. To saint Peter Jesus said "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it." (Mt 16:18) The Lord Jesus Christ thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Saint Peter's mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his brothers in it (Lk 22:32).

The Lord Jesus Christ entrusted a specific authority to Peter: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) The “power of the keys” designates authority to govern the house of God, which is the Church. Jesus, the Good Shepherd, confirmed this mandate after his Resurrection: “Feed my sheep.” (Jn 21:15–17; cf. 10:11). The power to “bind and loose” connotes the authority to absolve sins, to pronounce doctrinal judgements, and to make disciplinary decisions in the Church. Jesus entrusted this authority to the Church through the ministry of the apostles (Mt 18:18) and in particular through the ministry of Peter, the only one to whom he specifically entrusted the keys of the kingdom.

(See the Catechism of the Catholic Church sections 551 to 553)

So you can't do ANY of these things....


You can personally "reckon" stuff........ nice. And it seems you can parrot some baseless stuff from your individual denomination..... good. But you have NOTHING to REMOTELY support your claim as true. Nothing.


To the issue of the thread, see post # 3.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

In traditional marriage vows the bride promises to To Love, Honour and Obey her husband. Marriage is a sacrament showing in a human relationship of mutual self giving what Christ and the Church are. Thus the Church which is the bride of Christ is To Love, Honour and Obey her husband. Since the faithful are the body of Christ it is right and just that they too are To Love, Honour and Obey Christ who is present in the Church by his ministers. Submission is, then, a sign of faithfulness in the union between Christ and his Church.

 

[MoreCoffee]

What do you learn from saint Paul when you read the following?

Ephesians 5:22: “Wives, be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body. As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything.”​

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

In traditional marriage vows the bride promises to To Love, Honour and Obey her husband. Marriage is a sacrament showing in a human relationship of mutual self giving what Christ and the Church are. Thus the Church which is the bride of Christ is To Love, Honour and Obey her husband. Since the faithful are the body of Christ it is right and just that they too are To Love, Honour and Obey Christ who is present in the Church by his ministers. Submission is, then, a sign of faithfulness in the union between Christ and his Church.

CHRIST is the groom, not the singular, exclusive, particular, unique, individual RC Denomination.

Correct, the RCC trying to steal the authority away from Christ is an indication of infidelity and well as profound egoism and power-quest.


See post # 3.



Thank you


Pax


- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Nicene Creed declares the Church to be One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. I trust the creed more than opinions in CF posts.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Notice how the CF creed presents the scripture support for the clause under discussion.

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)​

 

[MoreCoffee]

There's one church not a plethora of them. Otherwise one could not submit to the church at all. In fact it is very difficult to submit to the denominations and independent meetings present in the world today. As soon as one is in conflict with the meeting one can move on to a different meeting and repeat the process as often as needed. That precludes submission in most forms.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

There's one church not a plethora of them. Otherwise one could not submit to the church at all. In fact it is very difficult to submit to the denominations and independent meetings present in the world today. As soon as one is in conflict with the meeting one can move on to a different meeting and repeat the process as often as needed. That precludes submission in most forms.

The Groom is CHRIST, not the singular, unique, particular, individual RC Denomination.

See post 86.

See post 3.



Thank you


Pax


- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Church of the apostles was definitely one saint paul highlights the singularity and unity of the church when he writes

"There is one body and one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all" (Eph. 4:4-5).​

Paul linked this unity to the Church's common Eucharistic bread saying

"Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of one bread" (1 Cor. 10:17).​

And the Lord Jesus Christ had promised at the outset that "there would be one flock, one shepherd" (John 10:16).

Far from the multitude of independent meetings and the many denominations in the world today.

 

[barryatlake]

The Church has the final answer of authority, as according to what Jesus said, not the Scripture, as Josiah speaks.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

The Church has the final answer of authority, as according to what Jesus said,

Quote Jesus stating that the individual RC Denomination is the "final authority."

Quote Jesus referring to the singular, individual RC Denomination authoritatively.




.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

The Church of the apostles was definitely one saint paul highlights the singularity and unity of the church when he writes

The RC Denomination is in doctrinal unity with NONE. Even if we just limit the comparison to what the singular RC Denomination currently labels as DE FIDE DOGMA - most important dogma. Even then.... a unity of NONE.

Far from the multitude of independent meetings and the many denominations in the world today.

... a good reason to rebuke the RC Denomination and its plethora of unaccountable, independent denominational meetings.



see post # 3.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[barryatlake]

Josiah, If you denounce that Jesus never taught His Apostles anything about salvation then you might have a chance, but we both know that Jesus taught only His 12 apostles and they their successors/ other presbyters. In this verse of Matt.18:15-18 we read where Jesus spoke about the church not the Holy Bible Alone has the final Authority. In that preceding verse, one can almost hear the note of amazement in Christ's voice when He said " If he refuses to listen even to the church... " implying that for someone to ignore the authority of the church-- His Apostolic/Catholic Church-- would be the height of stupidity and foolishness.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

In this verse of Matt.18:15-18

... Jesus says NOTHING - absolutely nothing whatsoever - about the singular, unique, particular, exclusive, individual RC Denomination (as all-powerful Lord over all, or otherwise).

Matthew 18 deals with PERSONAL CONFLICT due to sin. NOT norming doctrine. NOT about any denomination. NOT about being exempt from accountability. And obviously, it CANNOT (even theoretically) refer to the RCC or any other denomination because Jesus tells the parties to TELL it to the church - mandating that the "church" has ears - which obviously, no denomination does. Here TOO Jesus is affirming the church as PEOPLE, not one egotistical, power-hungry denomination. Jesus only speaks of the church as Christians, never as a denomination and NEVER as the unique, exclusive, particular, individual RC one.

Matthew 18 does NOT say, "Go tell it to the Infallible Pontiff of the Roman Catholic Denomination in Rome." Or "Tell it to the most egotistical, power-hungry denomination you can find." Obviously, he wants them to speak with CHRISTIANS, as they attempt to resolve their interpersonal problem due to sin.

we both know that Jesus taught only His 12 apostles and they their successors/ other presbyters.

Document.

Then all the 5000 to whom Jesus preached and fed were all Apostles? Document that.

And note that Jesus never taught the RC Denomination (at least that is anywhere mentioned in the NT).




See post # 3.



Thank you.


pax


- Josiah

 

[barryatlake]

Josiah, wrong Josiah, Jesus never said anything including in any words or writing what-so-ever that Bible Alone would thump His Catholic Church as was formed by Jesus on His apostles. I have proved to you that Jesus never proclaimed the Bible Alone/ sola Scriptura over his Church as per Bible. You have not zilch to show otherwise.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

His Catholic Church as was formed by Jesus on His apostles.

Jesus never did anything for or about the RC Denomination. You keep proving this.


See post # 3.



Thank you


Pax


- Josiah

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Josiah, wrong Josiah, Jesus never said anything including in any words or writing what-so-ever that Bible Alone would thump His Catholic Church as was formed by Jesus on His apostles. I have proved to you that Jesus never proclaimed the Bible Alone/ sola Scriptura over his Church as per Bible. You have not zilch to show otherwise.

Jesus never said anything included in any words or writing whatsoever that the successors to St. Peter would be infallible and that communion with them would be the sin qua non of full communion with Christ's church and that that community in communion with the successors of St. Peter would possess the fullness of doctrine to such an extend that no one, no where, could possibly correct its errors using the Bible because errors by that community were, de facto, impossible.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Jesus never said anything included in any words or writing whatsoever that the successors to St. Peter would be infallible and that communion with them would be the sin qua non of full communion with Christ's church and that that community in communion with the successors of St. Peter would possess the fullness of doctrine to such an extend that no one, no where, could possibly correct its errors using the Bible because errors by that community were, de facto, impossible.

Jesus implied it when he said "what you bind on earth is is bound in heaven and what you unbind on earth is unbound in heaven" he also implied it when he said "when they hear you they hear me". There's also his words about sin "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained." So it is far from true to make the claim that's in the above post. Clearly Jesus did say something that points to saint Peter and his successors being infallible.