Studying the Soviet Victims of the Holocaust in Our Schools

Milla

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I do not like the way any time someone on the Internet brings up the USSR's suffering during WWII (in Russia it is called the Great Patriotic War) people start saying "Oh, it was nothing in comparison to what Stalin did." As though Stalin's wickedness makes the Nazi atrocities against the Soviet public acceptable or diminishes the suffering of the Soviets during WWII?

The horror of Babi Yar is difficult to comprehend, I think. If you want to gain an understanding of more everyday sufferings I recommend "Book of the Blockade" by Ales Adamovich and Danil Granin. It is a compilation of the stories of people trapped in the city during the Siege of Leningrad. It is notable for its matter-of-fact nature and the hopefulness of the Leningradtsi despite the fact that they were starving to death, freezing to death, being hit by shells...

Frankly I think the reason people in the West know so little of the USSR's role in WWII is that they do not much care. So few have even HEARD of the Siege of Leningrad, yet it is one of the dramatic events of the war.
 
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Milla

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oldrooster said:
Stalin sent returning pow's to the gulag, also any soviet citizen who had seen the west.
This is an overstatement. At different times it was possible to travel to the West and return safely. You had to be in a position to be trusted by the government but it could be done. How do you think so much Western goods and literature got into the Soviet underground? Also obviously a huge number of Red Army soldiers saw the West when they were fighting on the Western front and did return home.

I am not defending Stalin. What he did was evil. But I think it is important to understand that the situation was more complicated than many ideologues would like to make it. We must make an effort to find out the truths about history and to understand them and how they came about.

But yes returning POWs were in general treated very badly, as was any city to fall to the Nazis or worse yet surrender. The idea was that they were not vigilant enough and that is why they were captured. They were not patriotic enough. And so forth. Obviously this is terrible bunk. Even the most dedicated soldier cannot win without bullets and backup and this is the situation so many Red Army soldiers found themselves in. And if a city surrendered Stalin would punish it with shelling and bombing.

Stalin may also have used the Nazis to his advantage in certain cases. Many believe that he allowed the Siege of Leningrad to be worse than it had to be because he was threatened by the Leningrad as a 2nd Russian capital and wanted it to be "softened up" for him.

But yet the Soviets won. It is hard to find an overarcing truth here, other than to say that life in the USSR was very hard and often very dangerous. Enemies forward and back.
 
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wildthing

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Milla you made some very excellant points. And these point are stronly argued. In the United States in upper level history classes we learn about the great cost that the Soviet People suffered during those times. The Soviet Union was invaded, invaders almost made it to Moscow. All industry had to move away from there, they moved pass the Ural Mountains. A side note today it is agreed in University level classes that our (US) delay into the war was a power move by Roosvelt. He wanted the US to be the most powerful nation after the war. Power is determine by the amount of people in uniforms A question for for you. This was not the first time that Soviet Union had foreign soldiers in it's terroriy in the 20th century. Do you know when and can you tell us who?
 
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Existential1

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Studying the Soviet Victims of the Holocaust in Our Schools

We've all been taught about the Holocaust since we were little, and the primary victims who are studied are the Jewish people. I wonder, however, why we do not study the Russian and other Slavic peoples who were killed by the Nazis as extensively as the Jewish victims. The Nazis killed roughly 6,000,000 Jews, but they also killed between 20 and 27 million Soviets during the war, and planned to kill even more. While the Nazis stole the possessions of the Jewish people, the planned to conquer the entire Soviet nation and turn it into a giant German colony.

Why are the Jewish victims of the Holocaust studied so extensively whilie the Soviets are glanced over? Is this in any way Cold War related?
If the Jewish people themselves, had not made strong witness of the Holocaust, to what extent would it have already faded away into mere hostorical facticity? To what extent does the Holocaust exist, as a matter of public domain registration, simply through the work of this Jewish witnessing?
So why was such witness important to the Jewish people: and less so, or not so, to the USSR, and to the USA; and where have other societies struck their degree of witness of the Holocaust?
For the Jewish people, certainly those of territories administered by the Nazis, the Holocaust was a Total Event: one which ended what had been for them, and opened up prospect only of their annihilation; there was intent of Final Solution, and historically it went beyond crucial tipping point. For the USSR all their own loss of life, massive though it was, was a sub-part of a Total Event: facism was only one front on which they fought, and on which they cut pragmatic deals; their society was not pushed beyond tipping point, and in fact Stalin was able to rally the country, on basis of traditions he had had hitherto persecuted. Given that a foremost opponent was the USA, this dis-emphasis was an aspect of the Cold War.
In Europe, certainly in the UK, Soviet losses, and the Soviet past in the War are given stronger emphasis. As a child, I was brought up on stories of the Atlantic convoys, taking supplies, probably from America, to Murmansk, for the Soveit war effort. I was exposed to many books which documented the starving and working to death of Soviet POWs; amd was aware of the numbers involved. I always understood, that no matter what part other nations undoubtedly played: WW2 was lost for the Germans on the Eastern Front; that it was Soviet blood that drowned the Third Reich, and Soviet factory production which smashed its structures. Why we have never celebrated this sufficiently, is a big question. It should be noted, that even in European terms, Scotland has always been Socialist in tone: and there is much antipathy to American foreign policy, though not the country and its people; in the 20C the UK government always feared what might come from Red Clydeside.

I have never understood why Hitler persecuted the Jewish people: and I don't find proffered explanations for this to have much depth. If he had allowed the Jewish people to have been part of his Reich, then I am sure that they would have been loyal Germans, as they had been in WW1: where, concievably, with the contribution of the Jewish Germans, and the resource not deployed to their persecution, and exiled Jewish people not working for the Allies; he might well have won the war. Somewhere along the line, a truer understanding of this antipathy towards the Jewsih people, would have to be worked into an explanation of what the Holocaust has come to mean for that people, as an action of witness.

The Jewish people have been resourceful in managing their witness, with the Shoah (sp!) project a recent exemplary example: where this management has become integrated into the Zion project; both as regards a constructive support for Israel; and as an entrenched conviction, that in failing to collectively prevent the Holocaust, the wider world can no longer be expected to safequard the Jewsih people, wthout forceful cultural intervention by that people themselves. This intention has seen the Holocaust become a global reality, and not just a Jewish rememberance: and this reality woven into the culture of other countries, such as the USA and the UK. Having lost so many, and having been left to their fate for too long, the Jewish people have worked their corner: that they might not again go like lambs to slaughter, they have grasped the global cultural context; they ceaselesly put in place, as historical witness, and in modern media forms, what puts protection around their people. They have see the work required: they have done, and do the work required; they have a bulwark, that is the presented witness of the Holocaust.

The down side of this is imbalance. Those others in the human project, who also have been violated, by the machinery of our projects, are not so witnessed. The reasons for this are complex. Few people have the continuity of culture, ontology and history of the Jewish people. The USSR has been fought over by armies and ideological projects: which turned against their own people; which were never fully a part of that people; which have never known their place in the world, as do the Jewish people. The Jewish faith can comprehend the depths of its people: it is the depths of its people; its conceptions have endured. Other peoples have been subject to perspectives which come and go, which are fought over, which are aspirational only in some negative manner. The advocacy that other people can expect of their culture, pales beside that offered to its people by the Jewsih faith. Other people have the muscle of controlling the social arrangements, of a time and place: but the perspectives which sustained them, tend to die with them; the Jewish people have been persecuted under the power of these arrangements, but have retained a faith that has always outlasted them. The Jewish people have a historic sense, which sees them creating amd witnessing their journeys and experiences as history: other people have been been about other things; and part of this involves their history and witness being weak, compared to that of the Jewish people. Even today the Jewish citizens of Israel are forging the events of conflict with the Palestinians, into a historical witness, which is creating allies abroad in powerful places, and leaves the Palestinians reeling in a frustration of powerlessness: the most powerful instrument wielded by Israel is her history; and today that history is their version of this struggle with the Palestinians.
Where the other side makes their own historical witness, as does Milla, and for the USSR: then our own historical witness has to be qualified; and we have allowed that for Milla.
Where we have to be careful, is where we block the other side, and dismiss their contribution, their historical witness.
I would suggest that we always have to do more, to countervail the consequences of those who remain unwitnessed in history: those who do not have a people to work their corner; those whose voices are stilled in the mire of history.
I would suggest we also have to do more, to open ourselves to those whose rights of advocay are weak, often through their collective being demonsied: such as with the Palestinians, at least in some quarters; and also with NiemandheißtBoshaftigkeit, whose call of b.s. is as worthy of being heard, as is our own to the contrary.
 
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Milla

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wildthing said:
Milla you made some very excellant points. And these point are stronly argued. In the United States in upper level history classes we learn about the great cost that the Soviet People suffered during those times. The Soviet Union was invaded, invaders almost made it to Moscow. All industry had to move away from there, they moved pass the Ural Mountains. A side note today it is agreed in University level classes that our (US) delay into the war was a power move by Roosvelt. He wanted the US to be the most powerful nation after the war. Power is determine by the amount of people in uniforms A question for for you. This was not the first time that Soviet Union had foreign soldiers in it's terroriy in the 20th century. Do you know when and can you tell us who?
:D 'course I do. The West seems to have forgotten about it, don't they? France, Britain and the US invaded in the end of WWI under pretenses of helping the Czechoslovak brigades, who had supposedly been stranded in the north of Russia. They each invaded from a different side, Northwest, West, and Southwest. Quite a cruel thing to do when Russia was already suffering so much from the war and internal confusion - probably they just wanted to make the confusion greater. So there were so many battles happening then - the Red Army and the White Army and the "Green Army" (peasants fighting back guerilla-style in self-defence, mostly, and they fought EVERYONE) and the war with Germany not really being over yet, and now to add in three hugely powerful foreign invaders? I still do not really understand how the fledgling USSR arose despite this.

Had the Western leaders tried to open a relationship or dialogue with Lenin instead of knee-jerk invading, I think history could have been very different. Up until the invasion the Communists mostly wanted to have good open relations with the West - after all, they really believed a "worldwide revolution" was coming someday where all would be brothers. Sadly idealisitic. I wonder what would have happened with the Revolution if there had been more positive outside influences instead of constant pressure forcing the new government to be more militant. They were so afraid of spies and outside invaders, and...they were right to be afraid! It's a great shame that they in their fear curtailed civil rights and acted so draconianly.

Roman and Wildthing, you seem to know a lot about history, maybe you can add? :D
 
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Milla

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Existential1 said:
If the Jewish people themselves, had not made strong witness of the Holocaust, to what extent would it have already faded away into mere hostorical facticity? To what extent does the Holocaust exist, as a matter of public domain registration, simply through the work of this Jewish witnessing?
So why was such witness important to the Jewish people: and less so, or not so, to the USSR, and to the USA; and where have other societies struck their degree of witness of the Holocaust?
For the Jewish people, certainly those of territories adm inistered by the Nazis, the Holocaust was a Total Event: one which ended what had been for them, and opened up prospect only of their annihilation; there was intent of Final Solution, and historically it went beyond crucial tipping point. For the USSR all their own loss of life, massive though it was, was a sub-part of a Total Event: facism was only one front on which they fought, and on which they cut pragmatic deals; their society was not pushed beyond tipping point, and in fact Stalin was able to rally the country, on basis of traditions he had had hitherto persecuted. Given that a foremost opponent was the USA, this dis-emphasis was an aspect of the Cold War.
A very good assessment, I think. For the Soviet Union "the Great Patriotic War" was a huge event in the public consciousness and had a huge impact on the country, but it was a fight against invaders on the Russian's own terms, if you will. Yes many were being rounded up, summarily exectued, put in camps, so forth, but as a group the Soviets still had the power to fight back, and I think that means a lot.

Also I think the reason the USSR's struggle is so little heard in the West can be seen in the first paragraph of your post - Soviet citizens did not have the ability to...advocate for themselves, if you will. They couldn't witness to the rest of the world about it, repressed as they were. The could barely even witness to it within their own country - very few real stories were allowed publication, because it was thought it might hinder the morale, show the USSR as being less powerful...it was actually quite interesting that the "Book of the Blockade" even got published within the Soviet Union.

existential1 said:
I would suggest that we always have to do more, to countervail the consequences of those who remain unwitnessed in history: those who do not have a people to work their corner; those whose voices are stilled in the mire of history.
I would suggest we also have to do more, to open ourselves to those whose rights of advocay are weak, often through their collective being demonsied: such as with the Palestinians, at least in some quarters; and also with NiemandheißtBoshaftigkeit, whose call of b.s. is as worthy of being heard, as is our own to the contrary.
:clap:

Roman Soldier said:
Ice Road. ;)
Spasibo :D
 
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oldrooster

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My point in my posting was that all the forced laborers in the west, that had been taken from the USSR were sent to the gulags upon their liberation. There many accounts of Soviet citizens committing suicide rather than be returned. I do not disparage Stalin, he was needed by the USSR at the time. Dictators, however, are not needed now. I am very well aquainted with Soviet history, it is a hobby of mine. I especially am interested in the civil war.
 
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Injured Soldier

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Milla said:
Roman and Wildthing, you seem to know a lot about history, maybe you can add? :D
I'm not Roman Soldier or wildthing, but I got some stuff to add. It was more than Britain, France and the US. Soldiers from 16 outside countries were involved in civil wars in Russia. And they came from the East in Siberia too. Japan stayed involved in Siberia until 1922. For all these White armies, Red army, foreign armies, peasant armies, minority nationalist armies, Cossack armies, etc, my heart belongs to the Makhnovist insurgency in the Ukraine. But that's just my opinion, there is no way they could have ever achieved their goals. Finland was lucky to get away from Lenin while it could in 1918, the Ukraine wouldn't get that option.
I still do not really understand how the fledgling USSR arose despite this.
The reasons were many:

1. The White armies and foreign powers didn't have a coherant plan together, and mostly didn't communicate and co-ordinate with each other. Trotsky's Red Army could divide and conquer his enemy peicemeal. Even if they could communicate, the foreign leaders and White generals wouldn't ever be able to agree on what they wanted to happen, whereas the Bolsheviks could.

2. The Red armies held the best ground, namely the middle. Russia is huge, and has stretched communication and transport lines. The communists held most of the cities, which were the centres of production in Russia. They also held much of the rail network. Even when Denikin pushed through the Ukraine, Yudenich from Estonia and Kolchak from the Urals all at once (when the communists were at their most desperate during the Russian Civil War), they still held onto there things. Defeat for the White generals was a matter of time.

3. Trotsky's rearrangement of the Red Army ensured the slow improvement of it. So while points 1 and 2 slowed the White armies down, point 3 meant the Red Army soldiers would get better over time. Same could be seen in the Vietnam War. In 1959, the NLF were green fighters, little better than civilians. But over time, their tactics and training improved as they tried new things and got experience.

4. The political motivation wasn't there. And all those who were politically motivated either couldn't hold power for long, or in the case of the White generals, weren't trusted by the peasantry to ensure consolidation of their victory.

5. Lenin knew who to buy off and when, or who to fight and when. He made agreements with the Finns, the Turks, the Makhnovists, etc, to buy time on lower priority areas of conflict or to tie up other powers elsewhere. So letting Finland become independant is she's leave Russia alone during the civil war meant St Petersburg wasn't in as much danger. Supporting the Mustafa Kemal even though he almost routinely drowned and shot communists when he could tied up British and French forces in the Middle East that would be in Russia otherwise. The deal made with the Makhnovists ensured their full strength could be devoted to destroying Denikin's armies, but soon as it was appropriate the communists turned against them.
 
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oldrooster

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Once again it boils down to motovation, the red forces had more. The Red army & Bolshevik party had a platform that the people supported. You would be hardpressed to find much support for the czar amongst the common folk.
 
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wildthing

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By all means add stuff Injured Soldier I have enjoyed what you have added. I think the whole idea of this thread is to learn a little from each other. We all have varied understanding of what history is. History is pettry much colorless if we only use one text or one person's ideas. But with you, Roman Soldier, Milla, and others we can find that history is colorful and yes it is interesting. More interesting then what the textbooks present.
 
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Milla

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Wow, Injured Soldier :clap:

I always feel bad for Trotsky when reading about history.

oldrooster said:
My point in my posting was that all the forced laborers in the west, that had been taken from the USSR were sent to the gulags upon their liberation. There many accounts of Soviet citizens committing suicide rather than be returned. I do not disparage Stalin, he was needed by the USSR at the time. Dictators, however, are not needed now. I am very well aquainted with Soviet history, it is a hobby of mine. I especially am interested in the civil war.
You do not disparage Stalin? :eek: He was NOT needed by the USSR at that time! The USSR needed a leader who could lead with a strong hand but without insanity! Yes one can make an argument that the draconian measures of some of his plans were necessary to strengthen the USSR enough that it could stand up to outside threat, and to create a true Proletariat (Russia having been made up mostly of peasants, not a worker class) for the building of Communism, but what the USSR did NOT need was purges of not only anyone who did not agree with him, but anyone who he THOUGHT might not agree with him SOMETIME even just in their MINDS. It did not need pogroms of Jews and institutionalized violence toward other non-Rus' groups. It did not need the show trials, or the cruel gulag system, or the fear of being denounced by a "Pavilik Morozov". And Stalin's paranoia and maneuvering cost the USSR huge additional losses in WWII - did Leningrad need to be starved out to make it more malleable for Stalin after the war? Did the heroes of the Leningrad Siege need to be killed after the Germans were expelled, just because they were "popular" and Stalin thought they might detract from him? Did Soviet cities who did not "fight well enough" deserve to be shelled by the Red Army?

I do not like that Russia seems to need a strong, ruthless leader to keep it going. We see this now with Putin - he is not a kind man, but he is an effective one. But he does not go so far out of line. It is one thing to operate Machiavellian politics in the way of Lenin, Krushchev, even our current Putin - applying pressures strategically. It is another to operate politics of terror. Stalin's terror may have started out as a "strategic terror," but by the end it was blind madness.
 
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oldrooster

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I am also a Trotsky fan, I believe that Lenin was correct in his view of Stalin. However, if the great industrialization of the 30s had not taken place you could have never defeated the Germans. He probably was the most ruthless dictator ever, killed more people than Hitler. Suprisingly he was the worlds greatest anti-communist, killing off the best minds of his generation. I am also a great fan of Bukharin, who I think had great ideas. Sergi Kirov could have been a serious contender for Stalins post had he not been assassinated. I have the greatest respect for the Russian people who probably have suffered more in this century than any other people in history.
 
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Milla

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I also like much about Trotsky. He was a good leader and had practical experience. He's probably my favorite Bolshevik (yes, I have favorites ;) ) but I also think Rykov was a wise Bolshevik, as he had many correct ideas, especially about farming. Rykov was certainly not ruthless enough to lead, though.

I don't believe that Stalin was necessary to the industrialization, nor were his extreme and vicious actions. I am no John Scott to be seduced thus. There were several other competent - more competent - Bolsheviks who had same beliefs about industry and greater experience and abilities. It would have been better to industrialize without killing so much of the population! And worse, the skilled and intelligent of working age were the most common victims! Stalin's industrialization was also hampered very much by his mismanagement, which forced factories and kolkhozy to lie about their production rates and left huge factories filled with workers...and with no raw material to be turned into products. And the kolkhozy were a disaster, making it impossible to feed the growing proletariat class. No. Stalin's main skill was keeping himself in power and at the top - he was a skillful political maneuverer - and I think it is a sad sad thing that one of the more decent and practical Bolsheviks like Trotsky wasn't better at self-preservation.
 
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Milla

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Well, Trotsky was a practical leader, not a flashy politico. He understood how to make things work better than the other Bolsheviks did, and he was good at managing on a large scale. I think he worked better when he was paired with Lenin, where Lenin had the charisma and the huge vision and Trotsky had the management skills and experience. It's a tragedy he and the other Bolsheviks did not understand how much power they were giving Stalin by making him the secretary (not what it later became, leader of the Party, but the actual just politburo secretary) early enough.
 
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oldrooster

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It is a strange fact of life that he who manages the paperwork has the power. The problem with people like Stalin, and Kaiser Wilhelm II, is that when they have physical handicaps thay have something to prove. Stalin was short, had a withered arm and spoke Russian in an accent that I have heard some found funny. The German kaiser was the same.
 
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oldrooster

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There could probably be a study of short dictators throughout history. Probably be pretty funny as well. Lenin looked like a revoloutionary, though. I really am a fan of that time period, I have studied propaganda and posters from that time period for a while now. I have read most everything available on the Civil war, grab every new book as soon as it comes out.
 
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Milla

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Hee! Lenin did have the look. That goatee and the hat and everything. But he couldn't roll his Rs. A fact that always makes me feel better - I can't always roll mine either :D This is a pretty common Russian speech impediment. It's akin to having a lisp in English. Although I don't think the R problem has as negative associations of lack of eloquence or anything.

Soviet propaganda posters are often big stupid lies, but you do have to admit that they look cool :D Like the one of Lenin with his coat billowing with the poem by Mayakovsky - "Lenin zhil. Lenin zhiv. Lenin budet zhit'." It's a fascinating study.
 
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