Studying Catholicism

[Yarddog]

What if the icon is an image of Christ, is that not an image of God?

Yes but it was God who created Jesus in his image. Now we have an image which God has made so that we can share.

When you pray the rosary, are you not praying to an image of God?

No.

And what about Mary, do you not kneel down to statues of Mary, again it is simply a question, not an accusation?

People pray and ask for Mary to pray with them, to God. It recognizes Mary and her calling, to bear the Son, and asks for her to pray for us. All of the ancient Church plus most of the Protestant Reformers recognized the special place of Mary.

And the intersessions of Saints, Jesus said He is the ONLY way to the Father, therefore there is no need to ask anyone in heaven to pray for you, Christ is the ONLY one that you need to ask to pray for you. He is the ONLY mediator by His own words.

Then why does scripture tell us to pray for each other? Why did Paul pray to God for the Corinthians or the Colossians, etc..

With all do respect, please don't tell me what I dont understand. I understand He is 100% present in the Eucharist spiritually.

Do you understand that he is in the Eucharist physically?

Of course you know it is also called communion, togetherness.. in spirit. Just as he told the disciples He will always be with them (and us), again in spirit as He does live among and in us at all times! No need for any image or icon to remind me of that.

Why do you judge those who need an image then? I, personally do not have any icons but I do see their use. I, many times, see images which help remind me of Jesus' suffering on the cross and it helps bring me to pray in a more humble manner, at that time. This does not mean that I don't understand humility, because I do, but the image does remind us.

When we take communion, it is the remembrance/memorial He instructed the disciples to do at the Last Supper.

Yes. "Do this in memory of me."

We are eating the Bread (spiritual body) and drinking the Wine (spiritual blood) in remembrance of His sacrifice for us.

We are eating the body and drinking the blood of Jesus Christ, when we partake of the host and wine.

To my knowledge, He never said to put the bread in an gravened vessel and worship it...He never said I will turn into a piece of bread on the first day of the week so after you put it in a man made vessel, you can then worship me..

Didn't he put the wine into a man made vessel? We do not "worship" bread or wine. We worship Jesus Christ.

 

[ceb420]

I wasnt trying to come across as judgmental, I do apologize if that's the way it came across.

As far as the rosary, statues and praying to the Saints and Mary, it isn't scriptural therefore I just cant get behind it, It's man made in my opinion, therefore not worthy of worship. And that being said, where does scripture say anything about exalting Mary in the first place? John:19 26-27 is the only thing that comes remotely close but I feel it's a far cry from instituting any worship or prayer to her.

As far as the Eucharist, there is a difference between when Jesus, the Son of God is walking the earth, instructing you to drink wine out of a man made cup in remembrance of Him the night before He is put to death and putting a wafer in a made made vessel and worshiping it. Again not being judgmental, I just dont see how that can be anything other than idolatry.

 

[Yarddog]

I wasnt trying to come across as judgmental, I do apologize if that's the way it came across.

No need to apologize because I didn't think that you were coming across in a judgmental fashion.

As far as the rosary, statues and praying to the Saints and Mary, it isn't scriptural therefore I just cant get behind it, It's man made in my opinion, therefore not worthy of worship.

If you feel that way then it would certainly be wrong if you did this.

And that being said, where does scripture say anything about exalting Mary in the first place?

Since Mary was alive for most of this then we can see that it doesn't say anything about it but scripture reveals this.

Understand that it was the Holy Spirit which caused Elizabeth to speak these words.
Luke 1:
41 And it came to pass , that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said , [/b]Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? [/b]

As far as the Eucharist, there is a difference between when Jesus, the Son of God is walking the earth, instructing you to drink wine out of a man made cup in remembrance of Him the night before He is put to death and putting a wafer in a made made vessel and worshiping it.

"You" believe that it is wafer but it was never taught to be a wafer throughout the history of the Church until some newer Churches started teaching that it wasn't the body and blood. St. Ignatius, a 1st Century Bishop of Antioch and 2nd Bishop from Peter taught that the Eucharist was the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ not a mere wafer.

For those who believe that it is a mere wafer, it is a mere wafer, but for those who believe as the Apostles taught, it is the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

St. Ignatius speaking against the heretics:
"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again."

Again not being judgmental, I just dont see how that can be anything other than idolatry.

That is because you do not understand what the Apostles taught about this. For a non-believer in the Eucharist it would idolatry but to those with the faith of the Apostles, it is not because Jesus is in the cup.

 

[ceb420]

Hmm..thanks for the quotes, I will definitely keep praying for guidance and I have just recently began to study more closely the early Church.

I hope I didn't offend you or anyone else, peace be with you! <><

 

[Rhamiel]

Hmm..thanks for the quotes, I will definitely keep praying for guidance and I have just recently began to study more closely the early Church.

I hope I didn't offend you or anyone else, peace be with you! <><

May the Lord bless you and keep you safe from all harm

 

[Yarddog]

Hmm..thanks for the quotes, I will definitely keep praying for guidance and I have just recently began to study more closely the early Church.

I hope I didn't offend you or anyone else, peace be with you! <><

Thank you for the blessing of being able to give testimony.

May God fill you with his love,
Yarddog

 

[ViaCrucis]

An idol is a "god" while icons are not.


The Eucharistic is Jesus Christ even though you don't understand this at this time. Jesus said "this is my body" and "this is my blood", thus we believe the words which he spoke. Even though Protestant Church don't believe as the Catholic or Orthodox Churches do, many still believe that Jesus is present in the Eucharist so there is no "strange god" present but the known "God and Son".

Many don't but many do. We are supposed to argue about what God has given his children to do.

(Emphasis mine)

As far as I'm aware, Lutherans, Anglicans, and Orthodox would probably have little disagreement concerning the Eucharist.

In general the only problem is with Transubstantiation and that in that it's seen as trying to explain too dogmatically what is, fundamentally, an unexplainable mystery of faith.

When I receive the bread and the wine, I'm receiving Jesus Christ, whole and entire. On that point there's no disagreement among you, me, or our Anglican or Orthodox brethren (and all else who confess the Real Presence).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Yarddog]

(Emphasis mine)

As far as I'm aware, Lutherans, Anglicans, and Orthodox would probably have little disagreement concerning the Eucharist.

In general the only problem is with Transubstantiation and that in that it's seen as trying to explain too dogmatically what is, fundamentally, an unexplainable mystery of faith.

When I receive the bread and the wine, I'm receiving Jesus Christ, whole and entire. On that point there's no disagreement among you, me, or our Anglican or Orthodox brethren (and all else who confess the Real Presence).

-CryptoLutheran

Hi Crypt,
Yes, I understand but I didn't want to try and explain that much to him since he didn't agree with any of us.

God Bless
Your brother in Christ
YD

 

[WisdomTree]

To the OP: What is your positon on the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches?

 

[River-Dweller]

Ok, I finally did visit a Catholic church back in December. God gave me a dream and showed me that the Catholic church is like a pirhanna, devouring all the other churches around it. I believe that the Catholic church teaches a false gospel. As for the Orthodox church, I think they are a little bit closer to the truth. I have visited an Orthodox church and I enjoyed the chant but I take the side of the iconoclasts and I don't believe that icons should be used in worship.

 

[Yarddog]

Ok, I finally did visit a Catholic church back in December. God gave me a dream and showed me that the Catholic church is like a pirhanna, devouring all the other churches around it. I believe that the Catholic church teaches a false gospel. As for the Orthodox church, I think they are a little bit closer to the truth.

Hmmm, that is odd since the Orthodox and Catholics teach the same Gospel. Of course, God would know that, yet, something gave you a false vision, most likely your own mentality.

 

[River-Dweller]

Hmmm, that is odd since the Orthodox and Catholics teach the same Gospel. Of course, God would know that, yet, something gave you a false vision, most likely your own mentality.

No. I was close to becoming Catholic at that point. I was very open to the idea of converting when I had that dream.

 

[Yarddog]

No. I was close to becoming Catholic at that point. I was very open to the idea of converting when I had that dream.

A dream does not mean vision. I have had many visions while attending Mass revealing aspects of the Mass. I have had miraculous healings due to the Mass. I have had divine revelations of the mysteries of scripture but none contradict a single teaching of the Catholic Church. There are a few differences in the doctrine between the Catholic and Orthodox Church but they teach the very same Gospel.

I don't know what you observed in the Mass which you went to but please share your experience so that we may be able to explain any misconception.

God Bless
YD

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

No. I was close to becoming Catholic at that point. I was very open to the idea of converting when I had that dream.

Dreams are very questionable as divine visions. It's hard to know exactly what goes on in someone's head when they have a particular dream, but the thought processes behind dreams are extremely complicated, and usually largely subconscious (meaning that they are almost entirely inaccessible to your own waking mind).

Dreams, along with any other vision, should be accepted or rejected in light of external evidence. You have to remember that many Catholics have had visions which validate the teachings of the Church, and on the contrary, many other people have had visions (or, in many cases "visions") which were opposed to Christianity entirely. Muhammad believed that he was visited several times by the angel Gabriel, who supposedly gave him the content of the Quran. Joseph Smith claimed, similarly, to receive a visitation from an angel named Moroni, which led to the foundation of the various Latter Day Saint movement denominations.

Allowing a dream to take you from seriously considering a religious group to rejecting it entirely is never a good idea.

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

I have a cousin who spent some time as a pentecostal Episcopalian. She and her husband were initially quite welcomed, but they eventually parted ways because she is ardent in her practice of speaking in tongues. If tongues is a significant part of your theology (as well as other sign gifts) I do not know of an Traditional Church that would be accomodative to that.

I'd say that if the bolded part (bolding mine) is the case, then one has some serious problems with one's theology.
"Oh, I'm not allowed to shout in tongues and disturb the service in doing so? Well, this is the devil! I'm outta here!" is.....a pretty good indication that something's not right with the way one looks at things.....and the way one reads the Bible.

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

No. I was close to becoming Catholic at that point. I was very open to the idea of converting when I had that dream.

Well, at least good things CAN come from dreams....
But no, I don't necessarily agree that this particular dream was from on high. It could easily have been your own subconscious messing with you, playing upon prejudices about the RCC you've been engrained with since childhood.

Having said that: I've been called "crypto-catholic" on more than one occasion. And I find myself in the position where I want to "swim the Tiber", but I simply can't, as there are clear theological errors and contradictions in the RCC.

 

[River-Dweller]

Ok. Here's an update. The bad dreams that I had about the RCC were before pope Francis. God showed me in a dream that the new pope would be from Argentina and I predicted on Facebook that it would be Jorge Mario Bergoglio because at the time, he was the only frontrunner from Argentina. I can't explain it but I feel differently about the RCC with the election of pope Francis. I think he's going to change things for the better.

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

Ok. Here's an update. The bad dreams that I had about the RCC were before pope Francis. God showed me in a dream that the new pope would be from Argentina and I predicted on Facebook that it would be Jorge Mario Bergoglio because at the time, he was the only frontrunner from Argentina. I can't explain it but I feel differently about the RCC with the election of pope Francis. I think he's going to change things for the better.

You need to stop looking at the individual pope, and look at the concept. IF the RCC is right, then it is right no matter who is Rome's bishop. If it is wrong, it is wrong no matter who the patriarch of the West is.

 

[River-Dweller]

You need to stop looking at the individual pope, and look at the concept. IF the RCC is right, then it is right no matter who is Rome's bishop. If it is wrong, it is wrong no matter who the patriarch of the West is.

I don't think that argument stands. I am currently a member of a Church of God (Cleveland, TN) congregation. However, if they were to somehow elect someone like Rob Bell or Brian McClaren to lead the denomination, I would likely leave.

 

[Albion]

I don't think that argument stands. I am currently a member of a Church of God (Cleveland, TN) congregation. However, if they were to somehow elect someone like Rob Bell or Brian McClaren to lead the denomination, I would likely leave.

Yes, but you are reacting to the person and his qualifications with the CofG. In the case of the Pope, however, he (ChristOurCaptain) has a point. The role is much more controversial than the person holding the office. Anyone who joins the RCC buys into the whole mythology of the Papal office and it doesn't change much from one pope to the next.