Studying Catholicism

[steve_bakr]

Why do Catholics think that that footwork gains them anything? We all know--you, I, him, them--that, when your body ceases to function, everyone calls that state "dead" whether or not one believes in an afterlife.

You pray to the dead while we do not believe it to be a correct practice. That's it.

If you really believed it to be God-pleasing to do so, why wouldn't you just defend the practice the way a person who believes he's doing nothing wrong would normally do? Seriously.

If one believes that the saints go to heaven, they are alive. It is self-contradictory to claim to believe in eternal life and then call the saints dead. Jesus Christ tore the veil between life and death. They are more alive now than ever.

 

[Yarddog]

Why do Catholics think that that footwork gains them anything? We all know--you, I, him, them--that, when your body ceases to function, everyone calls that state "dead" whether or not one believes in an afterlife.

Christians do not call those who are in heaven, "dead".

You pray to the dead while we do not believe it to be a correct practice. That's it.

If you believe that people who are in heaven are dead, then that is your "belief". The Christian Churches of ancient times did not believe this though.

If you really believed it to be God-pleasing to do so, why wouldn't you just defend the practice the way a person who believes he's doing nothing wrong would normally do? Seriously.

I don't pray to saints but I have no doubt that when I am in communion with God the Father, that all who live in heaven are also in communion with us.

 

[River-Dweller]

I am planning on attent a RCC this morning so I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[Albion]

Christians do not call those who are in heaven, "dead".

Yes, we do. We call people who have been killed on the battlefield "dead," those who have been ambused in school by crazed gunmen "dead," and all those who have passed on to the next life for any other reason "dead." And so do you.

My question was simple. Why play this game when everyone on all sides knows very well that by use of that word nothing is implied about the soul or the afterlife?

It looks to me like a recognition that saint worship is a questionable practice, or else this subterfuge wouldn't be thought necessary. But it was just a thought, and there's little to debate; so you don't have to give an answer if you don't care to.

 

[steve_bakr]

Yes, we do. We call people who have been killed on the battlefield "dead," those who have been ambused in school by crazed gunmen "dead," and all those who have passed on to the next life for any other reason "dead." And so do you.

My question was simple. Why play this game when everyone on all sides knows very well that by use of that word nothing is implied about the soul or the afterlife?

It looks to me like a recognition that saint worship is a questionable practice, or else this subterfuge wouldn't be thought necessary. But it was just a thought, and there's little to debate; so you don't have to give an answer if you don't care to.

It's not saint worship, as you know. And of course we can refer to someone as dead but, as we believe in the life everlasting, we say that the saints are in heaven--i.e. their essence, their souls. We speak of this world as our exile and heaven as our home. The Christian hope is eternal life with Christ. That's why we call it eternal LIFE.

 

[steve_bakr]

I am planning on attent a RCC this morning so I'll let you know how it goes.

That's great! I pray for your discernment of God's will for you.

 

[Albion]

It's not saint worship, as you know.

Of course it is saint worship...and you know it also. Every Catholic admits to it when pressed, except that they insist that we "non-Catholics" don't understand that it's this kind of worship, not that kind of worship.

So OK, it's a form of worship that used to be reserved for demi-gods as opposed to the worship directed at the principle deity.

And of course we can refer to someone as dead but, as we believe in the life everlasting

which we all do.

So is the answer to my question simply this--

Catholics like to take a poke at Protestants whenever this comes up by insinuating that the latter DON'T believe in life after death? Is that your answer? If so, what evidence is there that Protestants don't believe in life after death?

 

[steve_bakr]

Of course it is saint worship...and you know it also. Every Catholic admits to it when pressed, except that they insist that we "non-Catholics" don't understand that it's this kind of worship, not that kind of worship.

So OK, it's a form of worship that used to be reserved for demi-gods as opposed to the worship directed at the principle deity.

which we all do.

So is the answer to my question simply this--

Catholics like to take a poke at Protestants whenever this comes up by insinuating that the latter DON'T believe in life after death? Is that your answer? If so, what evidence is there that Protestants don't believe in life after death?

I think you're being sensitive about that. Inquirers need to know of our hope and why we believe the saints to be alive in heaven, and how we are in communion with them.

 

[Yarddog]

Yes, we do. We call people who have been killed on the battlefield "dead," those who have been ambused in school by crazed gunmen "dead," and all those who have passed on to the next life for any other reason "dead."

So you believe that Jesus is dead? By your definition he is because he was hung on a cross until "dead".

And so do you.

No, I call those who have not been taken to heaven, "dead".

My question was simple. Why play this game when everyone on all sides knows very well that by use of that word nothing is implied about the soul or the afterlife?

Sure it is. If someone is in heaven, with Christ, they are alive, just as Christ is alive. Moses and Elijah met and talked with Jesus on the mountain, were they dead or alive.

It looks to me like a recognition that saint worship is a questionable practice, or else this subterfuge wouldn't be thought necessary. But it was just a thought, and there's little to debate; so you don't have to give an answer if you don't care to.

So when Jesus or Paul honored those who had done great things in the name of God, he was wrong for doing so.

 

[Albion]

So you believe that Jesus is dead? By your definition he is because he was hung on a cross until "dead".

So you believe that Jesus did not die physically on the cross but only pretended to have been executed? That's what his enemies contended, as I recall.

No, I call those who have not been taken to heaven, "dead".

All of us, then?

Sure it is. If someone is in heaven, with Christ, they are alive, just as Christ is alive. Moses and Elijah met and talked with Jesus on the mountain, were they dead or alive.

So you think that all the saints in heaven were just transferred from this life to the next one without any interruption in their physical status...and these are the people you call "dead" (see above) while they are walking among us? Really interesting theory.

As I asked before, what is the purpose of this game?

 

[Albion]

I think you're being sensitive about that.

I can't be especially sensitive about it since it's something I've let pass many times before. But if anyone is sensitive about it, it might be you who raised the question of saint worship.

Inquirers need to know of our hope and why we believe the saints to be alive in heaven, and how we are in communion with them.

Why change the subject? We were discussing the worship of the saints and the typically Catholic claim that if anyone who is not a Catholic uses the word "dead" in the ordinary sense of the word, he is to be pounced upon and accused of not believing in the immortality of the soul. I asked why this deliberate misrepresentation of the well-known beliefs of other Christians is so commonly done. What purpose could it possibly serve other than to bear false witness, I'm wondering.

OTOH, I can see by the last several posts that the ranks have been closed and I'm not going to get an answer, so I'll let it go.

 

[steve_bakr]

I can't be especially sensitive about it since it's something I've let pass many times before. But if anyone is sensitive about it, it might be you who raised the question of saint worship.

Why change the subject? We were discussing the worship of the saints and the typically Catholic claim that if anyone who is not a Catholic uses the word "dead" in the ordinary sense of the word, he is to be pounced upon and accused of not believing in the immortality of the soul. I asked why this deliberate misrepresentation of the well-known beliefs of other Christians is so commonly done. What purpose could it possibly serve other than to bear false witness, I'm wondering.

OTOH, I can see by the last several posts that the ranks have been closed and I'm not going to get an answer, so I'll let it go.

I think we're talking past each other and something is getting lost in the translation, and there's no reason to elevate the rhetoric.

This thread is for a person who is inquiring about Catholicism. So, we would like to represent to him what our beliefs are instead of someone telling us what we believe.

Our position is that the saints are in heaven. We also believe that we can ask them for their prayers on our behalf. We believe that we maintain a communion with them. So, we profess to believe in the communion of saints.

We do not worship saints. You seem to insist that we do, even when we say that we do not. So, that presents the problem of misrepresenting our beliefs to the OP. It seems only fair for the OP to get an accurate potrayal of what our beliefs are, instead of someone using the thread to oppose Catholicism.

 

[Albion]

I think we're talking past each other and something is getting lost in the translation, and there's no reason to elevate the rhetoric.

I agree,.

This thread is for a person who is inquiring about Catholicism. So, we would like to represent to him what our beliefs are instead of someone telling us what we believe.

The OP didn't indicate that he wanted only to hear the Catholic defense of all the issues he raised.

Our position is that the saints are in heaven. We also believe that we can ask them for their prayers on our behalf. We believe that we maintain a communion with them. So, we profess to believe in the communion of saints.

What he asked about was the "Veneration of the saints."

We do not worship saints.

You say that you do...and it appears that you do.

It seems only fair for the OP to get an accurate potrayal of what our beliefs are, instead of someone using the thread to oppose Catholicism.

It seems only fair for the OP to get an accurate portrayal of what your beliefs are, instead of someone using the thread to conceal certain facts in hopes of recruiting a new church member. We've already had quite a few defenses of Catholic teachings, so you are in no danger from a little bit coming from the other perspective.

 

[Yarddog]

So you believe that Jesus did not die physically on the cross but only pretended to have been executed?

Nope, he died and is now "ALIVE" in heaven, as all who are in heaven are.

That's what his enemies contended, as I recall.

Anglican Jews.

All of us, then?

If your soul has left your body.

So you think that all the saints in heaven were just transferred from this life to the next one without any interruption in their physical status...

Did I say that?

and these are the people you call "dead" (see above) while they are walking among us? Really interesting theory.

I can see that it has been you that has been doing all of the playing.

As I asked before, what is the purpose of this game?

Ask yourself, since it has been you that started that.

 

[Albion]

Ask yourself, since it has been you that started that.

As I said before, I'm not going to get a straight answer from either of you fellows--which should tell our inquirer something about Catholicism in itself.

 

[Albion]

To me Lutheranism makes too firm a break from the Catholic church. Out of the historic churches, I like the Anglican church the best, but they are in a state of flux right now.

SOME Anglican jurisdictions are in that state of flux, but some are decidedly not. Perhaps your situation would be made clearer if we simply identified which is which?

 

[steve_bakr]

As I said earlier, I think it is important for the OP to experience Catholic worship firsthand. That will be the most important factor in discerning if he is called by God to become a Catholic.

These intellectual discussions have their place, but for me, Catholicism is a matter of the heart. We have to listen to what God is trying to tell us in our hearts. If the OP gives the Catholic worship enough time, then he will find out whether he is called to the Catholic Church.

Also, the process of conversion can take years. It has for me. The first time I tried to enter the Church, I had numerous problems with Catholic teaching. I discontinued the process and spent six more years in an evangelical church.

During all that time, I regretted that I could not receive the Eucharist. Slowly the obstacles in accepting Catholicism came down. It was my Protestant wife who encouraged me to return to the Catholic Church. I took that as a signal from God that the time had come, and I went through the process of being received into the Catholic Church.

 

[Yarddog]

As I said before, I'm not going to get a straight answer from either of you fellows--which should tell our inquirer something about Catholicism in itself.

We gave you straight answers but you failed to understand what is easy to understand. Anyone who is in heaven is "alive" with Jesus. It is the physical body which is dead.

We see from scripture that both Elijah and Moses are alive when they talk to Jesus. Moses died physically but Elijah did not.

 

[Albion]

As I said earlier, I think it is important for the OP to experience Catholic worship firsthand. That will be the most important factor in discerning if he is called by God to become a Catholic.

Well, it would be a very important ingredient in deciding if the RCC is the church for him. We don't have to editorialize further by adding the idea that this is God calling.

These intellectual discussions have their place, but for me, Catholicism is a matter of the heart. We have to listen to what God is trying to tell us in our hearts. If the OP gives the Catholic worship enough time, then he will find out whether he is called to the Catholic Church.

I know many other Catholics who are of the same mind. They say that they "just felt" like God was there when they went into the Catholic Church. Of course, they're usually bigger and more luxurious than the average Protestant church, so that makes sense to me on a certain level. But then I wonder what they'd think if their first visit to a Christian church was to the Washington National Cathedral.

Also, the process of conversion can take years. It has for me. The first time I tried to enter the Church, I had numerous problems with Catholic teaching. I discontinued the process and spent six more years in an evangelical church.

True, and our friend should be wary of making a final decision in too short a time frame. I tend to feel that he is.

 

[Albion]

Anyone who is in heaven is "alive" with Jesus. It is the physical body which is dead.

Yeh. That's MY point. And now we've all said it.

But you still haven't explained why it's so important to you to misrepresent reformed Christians whom you know very well believe in the immortality of the soul the same as Catholics do. (?)