Studying Catholicism

[bbbbbbb]

Yeh. That's MY point. And now we've all said it.

But you still haven't explained why it's so important to you to misrepresent reformed Christians whom you know very well believe in the immortality of the soul the same as Catholics do. (?)

Could it be because reformed Christians cannot be accused of necromancy?

 

[Albion]

Could it be because reformed Christians cannot be accused of necromancy?

That's an intriguing possibility, I have to say.

 

[steve_bakr]

Well, it would be a very important ingredient in deciding if the RCC is the church for him. We don't have to editorialize further by adding the idea that this is God calling.

I know many other Catholics who are of the same mind. They say that they "just felt" like God was there when they went into the Catholic Church. Of course, they're usually bigger and more luxurious than the average Protestant church, so that makes sense to me on a certain level. But then I wonder what they'd think if their first visit to a Christian church was to the Washington National Cathedral.

True, and our friend should be wary of making a final decision in too short a time frame. I tend to feel that he is.

It takes 7-9 months, maybe more, to become a Catholic. No one has to worry about making a hasty commitment.

 

[steve_bakr]

Yeh. That's MY point. And now we've all said it.

But you still haven't explained why it's so important to you to misrepresent reformed Christians whom you know very well believe in the immortality of the soul the same as Catholics do. (?)

Someone emphasized that dead people are dead. All we did was affirm that the saints are alive in heaven. I don't think anyone is trying to misrepresent your view. You're pretty good at verbalizing your viewpoint. All you have to do is tell us what it is. I did not at any point intend to misrepresent the Protestant POV. I know that Protestants believe in eternal life. That's what makes your emphasis on deadness so puzzling.

 

[steve_bakr]

Could it be because reformed Christians cannot be accused of necromancy?

Don't do that. It isn't going to help our conversation.

 

[Yarddog]

Yeh. That's MY point. And now we've all said it.

We've never said anything different.

But you still haven't explained why it's so important to you to misrepresent reformed Christians whom you know very well believe in the immortality of the soul the same as Catholics do. (?)

I haven't said anything about this so you misrepresent what I've said. You made some weird accusation, in your 1st point to me.

Quote by Albion: Why do Catholics think that that footwork gains them anything?

I had just replied to River-Dweller about a phrase that he has made: "Judaism does not pray to the dead."

My reply stated that Catholic don't pray to the dead either and you accuse me using footwork to answer him when I was to the point.

You flat out make the false claim: "You pray to the dead while we do not believe it to be a correct practice. That's it." (Quote from Albion) You then go through a series of post showing that you have no understanding of life in heaven.

The Saints, in heaven, have experienced the physical death, for the most part. Heavenly beings do not have an earthly body. This does not mean that they are dead. They were dead but are now alive in heaven.

 

[Knee V]

I am a monergist. I believe in the doctrines of grace. That makes it more difficult. I could never be Orthodox for that reason.

I used to be in your shoes with regard to that. As a former Calvinist, the "doctrines of grace" made my conversion to Orthodoxy difficult at first. But if "continuity" is important to you, then I would suggest looking at the history of the "continuity" of these doctrines, as well as what "synergism" actually means (I know that to a Calvinist that word is practically a four-letter word).

 

[Albion]

The Saints, in heaven, have experienced the physical death, for the most part. Heavenly beings do not have an earthly body. This does not mean that they are dead. They were dead but are now alive in heaven.

Yeh, everyone knows that. You can't use it against Protestants, OK? Try something else where we actually disagree with you.

 

[wordsoflife]

If you are studying Catholicism you should purchase a Catholic Handbook:

Handbook for Today's Catholic

 

[Rhamiel]

I am planning on attent a RCC this morning so I'll let you know how it goes.

how did it go?

 

[Yarddog]

Yeh, everyone knows that. You can't use it against Protestants, OK? Try something else where we actually disagree with you.

I couldn't care less if you agree with me. If you want to believe that those who are in heaven are dead, then do so.

 

[Albion]

I couldn't care less if you agree with me. If you want to believe that those who are in heaven are dead, then do so.

Merry Christmas and may all your denominational prejudices continue to bring you comfort in the New Year!

 

[steve_bakr]

I couldn't care less if you agree with me. If you want to believe that those who are in heaven are dead, then do so.

I haven't completely figured out the argument that our Protestant friends have made concerning the saints in heaven and their status after death, but we know for a fact that Protestants profess the Christian belief in eternal life. That is not a matter under question.

 

[Albion]

I haven't completely figured out the argument that our Protestant friends have made concerning the saints in heaven and their status after death, but we know for a fact that Protestants profess the Christian belief in eternal life. That is not a matter under question.

Well, it is for Yarddog.

But thank you for saying that. Yarddog knows the truth too, but it delights him to repeatedly post that I believe something he simply made up.

 

[Yarddog]

Merry Christmas and may all your denominational prejudices continue to bring you comfort in the New Year!

I'm not the one with the prejudices. You keep judging my Church but I have no problem with what your Church or any other Church believes. What I do what a problem with is when you or others pass false judgment against the practices of my Church or another Christian.

Telling lies and saying that Catholics pray to the dead when you have been shown that we and all of the ancient Church believes that all in heaven are alive.

Oh, have a happy New Year and God bless.

 

[Yarddog]

I haven't completely figured out the argument that our Protestant friends have made concerning the saints in heaven and their status after death, but we know for a fact that Protestants profess the Christian belief in eternal life. That is not a matter under question.

I agree and haven't said anything other.

 

[Yarddog]

Well, it is for Yarddog.

But thank you for saying that. Yarddog knows the truth too, but it delights him to repeatedly post that I believe something he simply made up.

If you believe that then show where I have made up the belief that those who are in heaven are alive. You cannot comprehend this for some reason.

 

[Rhamiel]

the OP seemed to have abandoned this thread, so i see no reason to keep up with this

 

[Albion]

I'm not the one with the prejudices. You keep judging my Church but I have no problem with what your Church or any other Church believes. What I do what a problem with is when you or others pass false judgment against the practices of my Church or another Christian.

Ah, so inventing lies about me is retribution for what you think is unfair treatment of your church. I guess that would explain it, but really...you should simply rebut what has been said that you don't agree with. It's not right to bear false witness against me like that.

saying that Catholics pray to the dead when you have been shown that we and all of the ancient Church believes that all in heaven are alive.

Of course they are alive. Everyone in this discussion agrees to that, which is why your lie is especially offensive, I'd say. And it's not simply a matter of interpretation.

Of course you pray to those who have passed from this life to the next. And that practice is a serious wrong.

The only thing at issue is the meaning of the word "dead," and you know very well that by it I mean what every other normal person means by it--the phenomenon of the end of one's physical life on Earth. The fact that there is a life after this one is not addressed one way or the other by the use of that kind of terminology. You had to go out of your way to pretend that I meant something you know I do not--and after I gave you an explanation very much like this one.

I can't respect such a tactic as that, for goes well beyond a mere disagreement over doctrine (which is your 'beef' with me) in which we know that both sides actually do believe what they stand for, even if one of them happens to be factually in error.

Rhamiel suggests that this thread has run its course, and I think he's correct about that.

 

[Yarddog]

Ah, so inventing lies about me is retribution for what you think is unfair treatment of your church. I guess that would explain it, but really...you should simply rebut what has been said that you don't agree with. It's not right to bear false witness against me like that.

Show where I have invented anything on this thread. You were the one who has made the accusations.

Of course they are alive. Everyone in this discussion agrees to that, which is why your lie is especially offensive, I'd say. And it's not simply a matter of interpretation.

Then why did you make this claim after I had said "Neither do Catholics, unless you believe that those who are in heaven are dead, instead of alive. Catholics and the Orthodox pray and ask that those who are alive in heaven to pray with us, to God, in the name of Jesus Christ."

Quote from Albion: "Why do Catholics think that that footwork gains them anything? We all know--you, I, him, them--that, when your body ceases to function, everyone calls that state "dead" whether or not one believes in an afterlife." "You pray to the dead while we do not believe it to be a correct practice. That's it."

Of course you pray to those who have passed from this life to the next. And that practice is a serious wrong.

Then from the words which you have said in your last post, Of course they are alive, you acknowledge that Catholics and Orthodox do not pray to the dead but ask those who are alive in heaven to pray with us to God.

The only thing at issue is the meaning of the word "dead," and you know very well that by it I mean what every other normal person means by it--the phenomenon of the end of one's physical life on Earth.

There is a great difference unless everyone who makes the claim also acknowledges that the Saints are alive in heaven. Catholics do not believe that all who have died physically are alive in heaven, thus, the dead are not in heaven.

I can't respect such a tactic as that, for goes well beyond a mere disagreement over doctrine (which is your 'beef' with me) in which we know that both sides actually do believe what they stand for, even if one of them happens to be factually in error.

My only beef with you is the wild unfounded claims which you make, such as the one I provided in this post or the many which you make in other threads.

Rhamiel suggests that this thread has run its course, and I think he's correct about that.

I have no problem with that and I thought that it was over before you guys started it again, a few days ago.

God Bless,
YD