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Generally it's the smarter people who care about context.
Nope because Jesus isn't teaching the law according to the Gospels. But you choose to throw them out.
bugkiller
I've already explained to you that the example Paul used in Romans 7 was to show that the wife had been set from from the aspect of the law that would penalize her, not set from from obeying the law. I've also explained that being under the law refers to it's penalty. The whole point Paul is trying to build up to is:
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Which again is referring to the penalty, not saying we are free to sin in violation of the law.
You're still ignoring the point that the law instructs us what sin is and Romans 6:15 says that being under grace doesn't mean that we are free to sin.
Romans 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
Paul stated it like this precisely because he anticipated that people would misunderstand him and think that being under grace meant we didn't have to follow the law.
[FONT="]Are God's Ten Commandments still valid ??
That is the primary question to be answered on this section of the board.
And the irrefutable response from scripture is ... "yes".
========================
Here we have the NT text providing examples from the TEN Commandments -- affirming them as "still" valid.
And of course scripture is -- true.
=========================
Matt 19
And someone came to Him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life? 17 And He said to him, Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 Then he *said to Him, Which ones? And Jesus said,
You shall not commit murder;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother;
and
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
"what matters is Keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Matt 5
17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31
What law? The Law that condemns all mankind as sinners -
Rom 3
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
That same law - same chapter
"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31
Not[FONT="]e:
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT="]Paul says in Romans 3 that this is the Law that defines sin and condemns the entire world as sinners... that would not be "the Law about Passover". That does not condemn gentiles at all.
.
...
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT="]The context in Romans 3 is not Psalms but rather the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin.
Which I think even you will admit is not simply the Psalms - but the TEN Commandments written on stone the "LAW of death" as Paul calls it in 2Cor 3.
2 Cor 3
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away ==============================
(So then the moral law of God is being affirmed by all of scripture "the Law and the Prophets" a term that specifies all of OT "scripture")
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT="]
Matt 22 "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
Luke 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it."
Any part of scripture read could fall under that title.
Acts 13:15 And after the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, Men and brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.
[FONT="]=================================[/FONT]
Rom 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 13
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Thou shalt not covet;
and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, [/FONT]
[FONT="]Do not commit adultery[/FONT][FONT="],
also said, [/FONT]
[FONT="]Do not commit murder.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. [/FONT]
[FONT="]12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty
[/FONT]
Which you pretty much ignore most all of the time.It is called "Exegesis" - we all know that the first 3 rules of exegesis are 'context context context".
Otherwise you get eisegesis - which is just "inserting whatever you wish" as the meaning of the text.
Yep when you read the Gospels for sure. Try the Gospel of John. It trashes your theology big time.Until you read the Gospels.
[FONT="]Matt 19
And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “
You shall not commit murder;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother;
and
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
[FONT="]Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [/FONT]
[/FONT]
Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Ummmm, no. He gave them the Law so that they would see their sin and the reality that they were sinners.
That "ALL" fall short of God's glory means none live "rightly". Game over.
If faith is but the means of obedience to the Law, then it is the Law that is justifying us, not faith. You still make the Law the means for justification, and faith is relegated to only being the means for obeying what justifies us.
The Law is what one under it is legally obligated by. There is no other way to follow the Law but legalistically.
Grace and truth did not come through Moses, but through Christ. Being under the Law refers to being under the Law. And all laws have a penalty attached to them, or else they are merely a suggestion. If there is no penalty, there is no "law".
And no one here is claiming that because we are under grace that it frees us to sin. Quite the contrary. But placing folks under the Law is a surefire way to cause them to sin, as the law "stirs up sin". But when grace is operative in the Christian life there will be "obedience resulting in righteousness" (Rom. 6:16).
Well, which is it? The Spirit transforming us from within, OR us "modeling" our lives after how he thought and behaved, which means becoming obedient to the law?? Those are two opposing thoughts presented as if they somehow are in agreement.
And no, we arent saved by grace through faith and then revert back to the Law to live by. We continue as we began...
"For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealeda righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: The righteous will live by faith." Rom. 1:17
Indeed, what was our "must do" under the Old, becomes Gods "I will" under the New. Thank God.
Indeed, righteousness is the opposite of sinfulness, so when you learn that your actions are sinful, you also learn that doing the opposite is acting rightly.
The fact that all of us fall short of the 100% obedience to God needed to be justified does not mean that obedience to God serves no purpose. God still wants us to avoid sinning and to obey His commands through the leading of His Spirit because that how those who are justified are called to act.
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
The order was very important to Paul - we are saved by grace through faith first for the purpose of doing good works second. In other words, our faith in Messiah should lead us to do good works. Having faith isn't just saying you trust someone, but rather it acting in a way that demonstrates that you trust them, so in the same way, our faith in God requires us to act on it by doing good works. If you get the order mixed up and do good works first in an attempt to be justified apart from faith, then you will fail. I think most people understand that verse 9 is saying we can't be saved by obeying the law, so it seems odd that they forget that part in the next verse.
The point of the verses in Isaiah was that God was never after legalistic obedience, but that He had a particular way in which He wanted the law to be followed. Here's another example:
Romans 9:30-32a What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness[d] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works.
The problem with Israel wasn't that they pursued it the law, but that they pursued it in the wrong way. They did not pursue it by faith, but as if it it were by works. If you are trying to become justified by keeping the law legalistically by works where God owes you your justification, then you are obligated to keep all of it, or else you will fail. But if you pursue the law by faith, then you will attain righteousness as the Gentiles did.
There is no "but" in the Greek, that was added by unhelpful translators, so my interpretation stands until you show how it's wrong. The law makes us conscious of sin and instructs us of what sin is (Romans 3:20, 7:7), so if we are not under the law, then we would be free to sin all we want, but Paul tells us that being under grace instead of being under the law doesn't fee us to sin (Romans 6:15). This means means "not being under the law" doesn't mean the same thing as "free from the law". If we're not free to sin, then we still need to pay avoid the things the laws says are sins, we just aren't under the law's power to condemn us if we do sin.
Paul only knew what sin was because the law told him, so if we're not free to sin, then we still need to look to the law to see which things we aren't free to to do. The law stirs up sin because of our sin nature, so that is our fault, not the fault of the law. In Romans 6:16, obedience is contrasted with sin, which is disobedience to the law, so the obedience resulting in righteousness precisely is obedience to the law.
Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
We are God's workmanship, so it is the Spirit that transforms us and models our lives after Christ and makes us obedient to His laws.
The law instructs how to do good works and the law rightly understood and followed leads you to love your neighbor (Galatians 5:14). The law is not sin (Romans 7:7), so we are not being saved from the law's instructions for how to act rightly, but from the condemnation of the law. We need no saving from instructions for how to live rightly after we are justified.
Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him,
but the righteous shall live by his faith.[a]
In Romans 1:17, Paul is quoting the OT, so the righteous living by faith was not a new concept to the NT. They obeyed the law by faith just as we should.
A role of the Spirit is to lead people to obedience to God and that has not changed between covenants. The laws was never about "must do", but rather that is a perversion of the law, it was always meant to be kept by faith to form a relationship with God.
Drop the but. Now explain it as it would then readIndeed, righteousness is the opposite of sinfulness, so when you learn that your actions are sinful, you also learn that doing the opposite is acting rightly.
The fact that all of us fall short of the 100% obedience to God needed to be justified does not mean that obedience to God serves no purpose. God still wants us to avoid sinning and to obey His commands through the leading of His Spirit because that how those who are justified are called to act.
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
The order was very important to Paul - we are saved by grace through faith first for the purpose of doing good works second. In other words, our faith in Messiah should lead us to do good works. Having faith isn't just saying you trust someone, but rather it acting in a way that demonstrates that you trust them, so in the same way, our faith in God requires us to act on it by doing good works. If you get the order mixed up and do good works first in an attempt to be justified apart from faith, then you will fail. I think most people understand that verse 9 is saying we can't be saved by obeying the law, so it seems odd that they forget that part in the next verse.
The point of the verses in Isaiah was that God was never after legalistic obedience, but that He had a particular way in which He wanted the law to be followed. Here's another example:
Romans 9:30-32a What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness[d] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works.
The problem with Israel wasn't that they pursued it the law, but that they pursued it in the wrong way. They did not pursue it by faith, but as if it it were by works. If you are trying to become justified by keeping the law legalistically by works where God owes you your justification, then you are obligated to keep all of it, or else you will fail. But if you pursue the law by faith, then you will attain righteousness as the Gentiles did.
There is no "but" in the Greek, that was added by unhelpful translators, so my interpretation stands until you show how it's wrong. The law makes us conscious of sin and instructs us of what sin is (Romans 3:20, 7:7), so if we are not under the law, then we would be free to sin all we want, but Paul tells us that being under grace instead of being under the law doesn't fee us to sin (Romans 6:15). This means means "not being under the law" doesn't mean the same thing as "free from the law". If we're not free to sin, then we still need to pay avoid the things the laws says are sins, we just aren't under the law's power to condemn us if we do sin.
Paul only knew what sin was because the law told him, so if we're not free to sin, then we still need to look to the law to see which things we aren't free to to do. The law stirs up sin because of our sin nature, so that is our fault, not the fault of the law. In Romans 6:16, obedience is contrasted with sin, which is disobedience to the law, so the obedience resulting in righteousness precisely is obedience to the law.
Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
We are God's workmanship, so it is the Spirit that transforms us and models our lives after Christ and makes us obedient to His laws.
The law instructs how to do good works and the law rightly understood and followed leads you to love your neighbor (Galatians 5:14). The law is not sin (Romans 7:7), so we are not being saved from the law's instructions for how to act rightly, but from the condemnation of the law. We need no saving from instructions for how to live rightly after we are justified.
Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him,
but the righteous shall live by his faith.[a]
In Romans 1:17, Paul is quoting the OT, so the righteous living by faith was not a new concept to the NT. They obeyed the law by faith just as we should.
A role of the Spirit is to lead people to obedience to God and that has not changed between covenants. The laws was never about "must do", but rather that is a perversion of the law, it was always meant to be kept by faith to form a relationship with God.
Drop the but. Now explain it as it would then read
For the law was given by Moses, grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Dropping the conjunction showing exception does nothing for your argument.
Yeah most of us here have read that post. Bet listed is no exception. I think his point still stands.
Yeah most of us here have read that post. Bet listed is no exception. I think his point still stands.
I responded and posted it on the same page.Listed asked a question about something that had already come up in a post in different thread. He had responded to my other posts in that thread, but not that post, so I assumed he had missed it. You're welcome to disagree with me, but if you won't interact with my posts and explain what is wrong with my reasoning and you won't even read some of my posts, then I'm not particularly bothered by your disagreement.
I responded and posted it on the same page.
bugkiller
This does not say we are obligated to keep/observe the law. Paul states we are not under the law two verse in a row. See Rom 6:14, 15. Paul says we are delivered form the law in Rom 7:6. Paul says it is foolish to return to the law in Gal 3. Wanted to reference and quote the whole chapter. You have a Bible. You theology flops big time.
Moses isn't linked to grace in 16 or 17. I agree the statement of 17 is comparative. Those comparisons are different even with out the word but. In my world they oppose each other. The criminal never asks or begs for the law to administered when found guilty. They always ask for mercy from the administrator Grace. This is asking for exception to the law as all do when they realized they violate the law. IOW they run from the (civil or biblical) law after violating it. Do you know any pro grace person who runs from grace to the law? I don'tIt seemed to me that you were replying to my use of Romans 3:31 and that you didn't comment on what I said about John 1:17. /shrug
Moses isn't linked to grace in 16 or 17. I agree the statement of 17 is comparative. Those comparisons are different even with out the word but. In my world they oppose each other. The criminal never asks or begs for the law to administered when found guilty. They always ask for mercy from the administrator Grace. This is asking for exception to the law as all do when they realized they violate the law. IOW they run from the (civil or biblical) law after violating it. Do you know any pro grace person who runs from grace to the law? I don't
bugkiller
By living faithfully in obedience to the law through the leading of the Spirit, we become instruments of God's grace.
Nope causin it ain't my covenant. The covenant I have is base on better promises. It gots nutin ta do wid de law.By living faithfully in obedience to the law through the leading of the Spirit, we become instruments of God's grace.
By living faithfully in obedience to the law through the leading of the Spirit, we become instruments of God's grace.
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