Struggling with "extremes and contradictions"

[Krikkor]

When I was 12, I left the church, not initially due to disappoint or anger with God, but due to issues with God's people, those that said they represented him. I heard too many conflicting ideas. God loves all his children and Jesus died for everyone, but if you believe evolution is real you're going to the bad place, or if you're gay, or if you don't believe etc. I also was raised to believe in compassion, love, and treated all people, even those with differing beliefs as brothers, because treating them ill is both un-Christian and also might lead them to think poorly of Christians. Then I'd see these same people insulting people different than them, being cruel and even causing physical harm based not only on religious beliefs, but race, ethnicity, social status and any number of things not chosen by the individual. This is so frustrating and confusing. I have been condemned many times by well meaning believers simply by asking questions, seeking to understand, not even being confrontational. I don't believe it a sin to question or even to doubt. Doesn't everyone struggle at times with faith?

There are things about me that I accept and I know God does also, that many don't or won't and that I can't really discuss here, which also confusing to me. I would be condemned for who and what I am by many, but why? This is difficult for me.

I can't explain how frustrating this was and remains. I don't intend to begin a debate, I am just trying to find a way to understand and come to terms. I also really struggle with what I view as extremes. In responses to my introductory post I received some simple welcomes as well as those referring to rapture and became instantly uncomfortable. I do believe in God, completely, and I believe he is all love and grace without exception and this is difficult for me.

I don't know, I guess I am a little all over the place in this post, but I am looking for a way to begin again and really am having problems with the things I have already discussed.

 

[timewerx]

I feel for you.

I was a Christian since I was a kid and I was thirty when I decided, I couldn't take those contradictions anymore, enough is enough! THe fault lies with the Christians for not getting their act right.

 

[Ken Behrens]

1. God loves you, just as you are. 2. Jesus is the answer for everybody. 3. People outgrow churches every day.

Forget the system, and seek Jesus for yourself. In time, He will help you get it straight. Now that you are on internet, you will find people who can accept you (I'm one of them). You will gradually build a network, and that is what a church is supposed to be. To me, real followers of Jesus are seekers, and they question and learn from Him through each other. It's a journey, not a destination until we get to heaven at the end.

 

[Krikkor]

I want to thank you both for your responses. I am still seeking and learning. I will attend this coming week.

 

[LionL]

When I was 12, I left the church, not initially due to disappoint or anger with God, but due to issues with God's people, those that said they represented him. I heard too many conflicting ideas. God loves all his children and Jesus died for everyone, but if you believe evolution is real you're going to the bad place, or if you're gay, or if you don't believe etc. I also was raised to believe in compassion, love, and treated all people, even those with differing beliefs as brothers, because treating them ill is both un-Christian and also might lead them to think poorly of Christians. Then I'd see these same people insulting people different than them, being cruel and even causing physical harm based not only on religious beliefs, but race, ethnicity, social status and any number of things not chosen by the individual. This is so frustrating and confusing. I have been condemned many times by well meaning believers simply by asking questions, seeking to understand, not even being confrontational. I don't believe it a sin to question or even to doubt. Doesn't everyone struggle at times with faith?

There are things about me that I accept and I know God does also, that many don't or won't and that I can't really discuss here, which also confusing to me. I would be condemned for who and what I am by many, but why? This is difficult for me.

I can't explain how frustrating this was and remains. I don't intend to begin a debate, I am just trying to find a way to understand and come to terms. I also really struggle with what I view as extremes. In responses to my introductory post I received some simple welcomes as well as those referring to rapture and became instantly uncomfortable. I do believe in God, completely, and I believe he is all love and grace without exception and this is difficult for me.

I don't know, I guess I am a little all over the place in this post, but I am looking for a way to begin again and really am having problems with the things I have already discussed.

Hello gchooljian,

I'm coming from a similar place to you - although I'm a lifelong atheist/agnostic who is becoming Christian. Since declaring my faith I find that I am being pushed away by Christians because I do not share al of their beliefs. For example, I believe that the stories told in Gensis and Exodus, Joshua and judges are myths. Full of important messages but not factual history. This has made me very unpopular.

I also believe that the Bible, rather than being God's Word, is mankind's search for God and so contains some errors. For example, God is against execution, homophobia and a whole lot more that many Christians defend. This has been my greatest barrier. To question the 'Word of God' has ostracised me.

It's getting to the point where I'm planning on removing myself from any contact with Christians as they seem intent on driving out my faith.

I pray that you find peace and that I do to.

 

[Krikkor]

I can relate to a lot of what you wrote, but I am learning that there are numerous different views out there and lot of different churches. It is my understanding that the most critical Christian belief is accepting Jesus as a personal savior.

I know of many Christians that are science minded, believe revelations is more metaphorical and parts of the other books as well. Some believe that due to numerous translations and the people that actually physically wrote the book, that personal thoughts and ideals and were included. Also it seems if God were to come down and speak to everyone, few would would likely have the same message because of personal views and beliefs. Also many believe we can love whoever we are led to love.

I have a lot of beliefs and also many questions. I still have a lot to learn, but there are a couple of things I know without a doubt.

God is love and grace. It is not our job to judge. The most important thing isn't to conform to others, but instead to develop a personal relationship with God. I have also learned something very important. If someone "knows" they're right, even if they're not, there is no point in arguing.

This is what I know and am learning.

Greg

 

[crossnote]

I know personal relationships can be sticky. The disciples when first starting out with Jesus had all kinds of squabbles and feuds with each other (e.g. one trying to be the greater over the others), the Corinthians had a lot of selfishness going on amongst them as well. That is all understandable. I get it.

But what I don't understand is this. Those who claim themselves as Christian i.e. born again by His Holy Spirit, thus having His Spirit dwelling within, can turn around and claim the Scriptures has some errors and contradictions...the very Scriptures that are Authored by the Holy Spirit..as ALL Scripture is God breathed/inspired by His Holy Spirit. I mean if you truly have the Holy Spirit how is He going to deny His own Word that He Authored?
On that count something does not add up. Perhaps one should ask if they are truly born again who doubt the inerrancy of Scripture.

 

[Soyeong]

When I was 12, I left the church, not initially due to disappoint or anger with God, but due to issues with God's people, those that said they represented him. I heard too many conflicting ideas. God loves all his children and Jesus died for everyone, but if you believe evolution is real you're going to the bad place, or if you're gay, or if you don't believe etc. I also was raised to believe in compassion, love, and treated all people, even those with differing beliefs as brothers, because treating them ill is both un-Christian and also might lead them to think poorly of Christians. Then I'd see these same people insulting people different than them, being cruel and even causing physical harm based not only on religious beliefs, but race, ethnicity, social status and any number of things not chosen by the individual. This is so frustrating and confusing. I have been condemned many times by well meaning believers simply by asking questions, seeking to understand, not even being confrontational. I don't believe it a sin to question or even to doubt. Doesn't everyone struggle at times with faith?

There are things about me that I accept and I know God does also, that many don't or won't and that I can't really discuss here, which also confusing to me. I would be condemned for who and what I am by many, but why? This is difficult for me.

I can't explain how frustrating this was and remains. I don't intend to begin a debate, I am just trying to find a way to understand and come to terms. I also really struggle with what I view as extremes. In responses to my introductory post I received some simple welcomes as well as those referring to rapture and became instantly uncomfortable. I do believe in God, completely, and I believe he is all love and grace without exception and this is difficult for me.

I don't know, I guess I am a little all over the place in this post, but I am looking for a way to begin again and really am having problems with the things I have already discussed.

I am sorry about your bad experience with other Christians. The Bible says that we someone says that they are without sin, then we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not within us (1 John 1:8). This does not excuse our sin, but it does explain the reality that as Christians we are going to fail to live up to our ideal and we are going to let you down, but thankfully our model is not other Christians, but rather our model is Christ.

There are theistic evolutionist who see evolution as being part of God's intelligent design, so evolution is not necessarily incompatible with Christianity. We are struggle the temptation to sin and someone who is gay just has the temptation to sin in a specific area while I don't struggle with that temptation, I likely struggle with the temptation to sin in other areas that they don't struggle with, so the problem is not having the temptation to sin, but rather it is giving into that temptation. The Bible says that we are to be known by our love (John 13:35), so those people who are acting cruelly are not acting consistently with what the Bible teaches.

Questions should not be condemned, but rather they should be encouraged. There is a difference between investigating whether something is true and demonstrating that you do not trust something that you have been given good reason to believe is true. I think a problem within Christianity is that people have ended up with a weak faith because they have been discouraged from testing its veracity. They are taught what to believe without being taught why they should believe it, so when they face trials and doubts inevitably arise, they don't have a solid to fall back on. Faith is the will to keep one's mind focused on what reason has discovered to it, but if someone doesn't have good reasons to believe, then they don't have something solid to focus on.

 

[Soyeong]

I can relate to a lot of what you wrote, but I am learning that there are numerous different views out there and lot of different churches. It is my understanding that the most critical Christian belief is accepting Jesus as a personal savior.

I know of many Christians that are science minded, believe revelations is more metaphorical and parts of the other books as well. Some believe that due to numerous translations and the people that actually physically wrote the book, that personal thoughts and ideals and were included. Also it seems if God were to come down and speak to everyone, few would would likely have the same message because of personal views and beliefs. Also many believe we can love whoever we are led to love.

I have a lot of beliefs and also many questions. I still have a lot to learn, but there are a couple of things I know without a doubt.

God is love and grace. It is not our job to judge. The most important thing isn't to conform to others, but instead to develop a personal relationship with God. I have also learned something very important. If someone "knows" they're right, even if they're not, there is no point in arguing.

This is what I know and am learning.

Greg

There are a number of verses in the Bible that I think that make it clear that we are to act as judges, but the key is that we are to judge righteously and not hypocritically or by appearances because the same standard that we use to judge others will be used to judge us. When you say that there is no point in arguing with someone who knows that they are right, then you are making a judgement about them, so it is absurd to to say that we can go through life without judging.

I have yet to run into anyone who holds a position that they think is wrong, but rather we hold the positions that we do precisely because we think we are right. However, I very much doubt that there is anyone who is right about every position that they hold, and the only way to figure out which beliefs that we hold are the ones that we are wrong about is to investigate the reasons for and against holding our beliefs. Hopefully that will lead us to strengthening true beliefs and dropping false beliefs rather than strengthening false beliefs and dropping true beliefs, but that is the risk inherent in the process of learning. I know that I've changed my beliefs about many things over my years on internet forums, even about something major.

While I agree that the most important thing is developing a relationship with God, people are going to have different opinions about what exactly that means. How do we develop a relationship with God? What sort of relationship should be be developing with God? How should our relationship with God affect our relationship with others? What does it mean to have faith in God? What things thing should we have faith in God about? What does it mean to love God? How should we love God? What does it mean to accept Jesus as a personal Savior? What is Jesus saving us from? What is implied by declaring Jesus to be Lord? Interpretation is inherently a subjective process, so different people are going to have different opinions about how the Bible should correctly be understood, but not all opinions are created equal.

 

[Greg J.]

When I was 12, I left the church, not initially due to disappoint or anger with God, but due to issues with God's people, those that said they represented him.

If anyone says or implies they represent God meaning they are like him, it's time to run.

Huge volumes of people have been turned away from God because of self-righteous people, just because they considered themselves "Godly" or labeled themselves "Christian."

Few verses have as much real life testimony as this one:

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Romans 3:23, 1984 NIV)

A LOT of Christians have been driven to adopt the approach Ken relayed:

... Forget the system, and seek Jesus for yourself.

It's not the ideal—corporate unity in Christ is what God wants—but we have to deal with the reality of what is in front of us.

 

[Krikkor]

Thanks for you points. I would like to expand on my comment about when people "know they're right." I have learned through the years that some people refuse, regardless of evidence provided to the contrary, to change their view points. I speak not only on religion, but other topics too. When I know I'm right through factual evidence, I typically attempt to provide the proof. Likewise when I believe myself to be right, I present that as well. At times though when I realize that nothing I can say or do will change the view point of the person I am talking to, then I accept that. Sometimes it's a person I value in my life and I value the relationship over the argument, other times it is someone that I work with or encounter casually, but the fact is, sometimes it's better just to keep my mouth shut.

Greg, thanks for that, I like your point about people claiming to be Godly.

So much to learn.

Thanks,

Greg

 

[ToBeLoved]

I think we all know what you mean about some Christians, but you must decide for yourself without looking at others. We all have seen great love in this world and we all have seen great hate. The thing with Christians is they are all still sinners, and misguided, and make mistakes and some don't try very hard.

What you need to do is find God for yourself.

What does God's Word say about God and how He feels about YOU?

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Romans 8:37-39 - No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 2:4-5 - But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, evenwhen we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved ...

Romans 5:8 - but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Zephaniah 3:17 - The LORD your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.

1 Peter 5:6-7 - Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you.

Psalm 86:15 - But you, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness.

Find out if these verses are true about God. Don't look at people. Look at God.

 

[Ken Behrens]

A LOT of Christians have been driven to adopt the approach Ken relayed: Forget the system, and seek Jesus for yourself.

It's not the ideal—corporate unity in Christ is what God wants—but we have to deal with the reality of what is in front of us.

It's strange how quick God can organize new systems. Corporate unity will not happen until the 33,000 denominations in the "system" (the one we think of when I use that term) get together. In the meantime, we have a new system called non-denoms which is barely 30 years old, and another new system called home churches which is barely 15 years old, and another new system called chat sites, where we all network. Al started by people seeking Jesus outside the "system".

 

[crossnote]

Home churches have been a staple down through the ages especially in countries under heavy persecution...or catacombs take your pick.

 

[Ken Behrens]

Home churches have been a staple down through the ages especially in countries under heavy persecution...or catacombs take your pick.

And now they are a new system in the organized Body of Christ here. (as we can prove by noting they are now listed int he religious surveys as a separate "thing".

Like I said, I meant the "system" we usually think of, and that means the traditional denominations.

 

[crossnote]

And now they are a new system in the organized Body of Christ here. (as we can prove by noting they are now listed int he religious surveys as a separate "thing".

Like I said, I meant the "system" we usually think of, and that means the traditional denominations.

OIC, as in the latest passing fad.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

When I was 12, I left the church, not initially due to disappoint or anger with God, but due to issues with God's people, those that said they represented him. I heard too many conflicting ideas. God loves all his children and Jesus died for everyone, but if you believe evolution is real you're going to the bad place, or if you're gay, or if you don't believe etc. I also was raised to believe in compassion, love, and treated all people, even those with differing beliefs as brothers, because treating them ill is both un-Christian and also might lead them to think poorly of Christians. Then I'd see these same people insulting people different than them, being cruel and even causing physical harm based not only on religious beliefs, but race, ethnicity, social status and any number of things not chosen by the individual. This is so frustrating and confusing. I have been condemned many times by well meaning believers simply by asking questions, seeking to understand, not even being confrontational. I don't believe it a sin to question or even to doubt. Doesn't everyone struggle at times with faith?

There are things about me that I accept and I know God does also, that many don't or won't and that I can't really discuss here, which also confusing to me. I would be condemned for who and what I am by many, but why? This is difficult for me.

I can't explain how frustrating this was and remains. I don't intend to begin a debate, I am just trying to find a way to understand and come to terms. I also really struggle with what I view as extremes. In responses to my introductory post I received some simple welcomes as well as those referring to rapture and became instantly uncomfortable. I do believe in God, completely, and I believe he is all love and grace without exception and this is difficult for me.

I don't know, I guess I am a little all over the place in this post, but I am looking for a way to begin again and really am having problems with the things I have already discussed.

I think sometimes the weight of an authority is too heavy to carry easily. Such is the case with the Bible. So many believe it (or say they believe it). Especially when we have an organized body of believers, a system, then the pressure ever increases. It's just hard to be a lone warrior against an immense crowd.

I think there comes a day when one needs to become brave enough and accept some obvious truths that actually shout at you. Like in my favourite H.C. Andersen's tale of "the Emperor's New Clothes", the innocent child finally exclaimed: "The emperor is naked!"