I don't know what you mean. I don't think God values people differently and neither does Reformed Theology. Where are you getting that from?I did, my post stands.
When one thinks God values people differently it opens the door for them to do the same, even if they don't realize it.
I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.
That's not the answer of a true Calvinist. By true, I mean someone who truly appreciates the doctrines of God's grace.I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
It's not that complex. All of Christendom fits into one of three categories. And believe it or not, most denominations are more Catholic than they are protestant.You're having a problem with Calvinism because Calvinism is a problem. Stay away, FAR away because once you get caught up in this easy religion (by design) that is preferable over true Christianity, and realize once you are saved you can do nothing to lose that salvation, it'll be nearly, if not impossible to break away. All because we love the idea of acting how we like and still going to heaven/have our cake and eat it too, sheer denial seems to set in if someone tries to pull you out of it, and it's so desirable, it makes perfect sense people don't won't to do what God/Christ says we must. In attempting to help them, we get some of the strangest arguments for which they attempt to defend their Eternal Security. The Bible states it so simply, if we do good, we go to heaven and if we do not (do evil) we go to hell. Gotta love a book that for the most part, is not the least bit confusing.
Read this and other such threads and see for yourself how they carry themselves, skipping questions during an argument, using the same old learned from each other, not God, reasoning to defend the theology, as well as attempt to make others buy into it...tricky stuff. Tricky stuff like accusing one of trying to earn their salvation, and attempting to make them feel guilty if we attempt to be obedient to God as part of the plan to get to heaven.
I'll leave it for now with what we must do, and not do, in order to get to heaven. IOW, we have to take action to show we belong to God and not get caught up in the very tantalizing untruth that tells us we cannot lose salvation. And BTW, I've know some of them personally, and if one is allowed to sin all they like, and stil go to heaven, I can assure you, they will. The "Master of Confusion" is alive and well in this.
Jesus said, and he put it very simply...no confusion:
John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
IOW, that covers everyone on earth, and we can "call" ourselves Christians all day long if we like, but if we don't do as Christ said...forget about it.
Here is some of what we must do our best to do or not do (mistakes are allowed, and forgiven if we are sincere) Jesus paid the price for our sin and all we need do is make reasonable effort to obey him (something some will call an attempt to earn salvation):
Straight from the New Testament:
1 Cor 6:9-10 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were.
Gal 5:19-21 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
You'll notice how it doesn't state anyone is exempt from being bound to follow the rules there if they want heaven, so it goes for everyone
Notice how simple and clear that is, and how it doesn't tend to confuse or make you feel uneasy as in it being conflicting to the bible as you know it even in your early stages of Christianity.
A little experiment. Go ask those who have Eternal Security if they can do the things in those last two paragraphs of scripture up until the end without repenting, and still go to heaven?
Even at this early stage, you already know the truth.
I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.
Just my mid western back ground I guess. It means getting all huffy and offended over NOTHING of any consequence. Listen, to start over! I was merely concerned that anyone would try to direct someone who was on a quest to find TRUTH for themselves, in the direction of their OWN beliefs by castigating the beliefs that she was examining. I merely suggested some reliable reading on the subject being investigated. The posts from the free will side trashed not only what I believe but what Ems was asking about. Not only that but the things they said ABOUT Calvinism are not true. It struck me as self righteous. As far as I am concerned as long as a person believes the saving doctrines of Christianity that is all that matters. HOW they got there is something either side could be wrong about and it wouldn't change the end resukt. Salvation.The free will camp
?
Btw, Reformed05, you are not the only Calvinist that has alleged that I am a self righteous free willer
The HIGH HORSE is new though, that's original with you.
What color is the horse?
I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.It /QUOTE]
There's nothing to worry about. God is sovereign and He gives mankind free will. Calvinism is a doctrine built on proof texts. It takes passages of Scripture out of context and attempts to use them to support other ideas.
From checking, double checking and triple checking the WHOLE of scripture... and, seeing your default treatment of others for starters.I don't know what you mean. I don't think God values people differently and neither does Reformed Theology. Where are you getting that from?
You're having a problem with Calvinism because Calvinism is a problem. Stay away, FAR away because once you get caught up in this easy religion (by design) that is preferable over true Christianity, and realize once you are saved you can do nothing to lose that salvation, it'll be nearly, if not impossible to break away. All because we love the idea of acting how we like and still going to heaven/have our cake and eat it too, sheer denial seems to set in if someone tries to pull you out of it, and it's so desirable, it makes perfect sense people don't won't to do what God/Christ says we must. In attempting to help them, we get some of the strangest arguments for which they attempt to defend their Eternal Security. The Bible states it so simply, if we do good, we go to heaven and if we do not (do evil) we go to hell. Gotta love a book that for the most part, is not the least bit confusing.
Read this and other such threads and see for yourself how they carry themselves, skipping questions during an argument, using the same old learned from each other, not God, lines of reasoning to defend their theology, as well as attempt to make others buy into it...tricky stuff. Tricky stuff like accusing one of trying to earn their salvation, and attempting to make them feel guilty if they attempt to be obedient to God as part of the plan to get to heaven.
It's as if they are saying we go to heaven on our faith alone and that faith doesn't include being obedient to God/Christ.
I'll leave it for now with what we must do, and not do, in order to get to heaven. IOW, we have to take action to show we belong to God and not get caught up in the very tantalizing untruth that tells us we cannot lose salvation. And BTW, I've know some of them personally, and if one is allowed to sin all they like, and stil go to heaven, I can assure you, they will. The "Master of Confusion" is alive and well in this.
Jesus said, and he put it very simply...no confusion:
John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
IOW, that covers everyone on earth, and we can "call" ourselves Christians all day long if we like, but if we don't do as Christ said...forget about it.
Here is some of what we must do our best to do or not do (mistakes are allowed, and forgiven if we are sincere) Jesus paid the price for our sin and all we need do is make reasonable effort to obey him (something some will call an attempt to earn salvation):
Straight from the New Testament:
1 Cor 6:9-10 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were.
Gal 5:19-21 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
You'll notice how it doesn't state anyone is exempt from being bound to follow the rules there if they want heaven, so it goes for everyone
Notice how simple and clear that is, and how it doesn't tend to confuse or make you feel uneasy as in it being conflicting to the bible as you know it even in your early stages of Christianity.
A little experiment. Go ask those who have Eternal Security if they can do the things in those last two paragraphs of scripture up until the end without repenting, and still go to heaven?
Even at this early stage, you already know the truth.
I've been a Calvinist for over 20 years. I don't recall ever hearing that we can do whatever we want and be saved.All because we love the idea of acting how we like and still going to heaven/have our cake and eat it too, sheer denial seems to set in if someone tries to pull you out of it, and it's so desirable, it makes perfect sense people don't won't to do what God/Christ says we must.
It is true. I was a Calvinist so I know what it teaches.This is not true. You need to understand Calvinism before hurling your opinions about it. And scripture to refute it would make way for conversation.
It's valid. The OP is a new Christian and needs a foundation, not a bunch of verses that they may not know thrown at them.This is not valid until you disprove Calvinism using scripture.