Struggle

[Jake Arsenal]

The Lord is a man of war;(Exodus 15:3)

My God is a warrior, and warriors follow HIM. I came to this site because I struggle to reconcile certain concepts of the Gospel and epistles(as taught by many churches) with the rest of the Scripture. Many places in the NT show Jesus' return as a warrior and the divine judge, and I understand why He needed to surrender Himself unto death, but I struggle with many teachings which seem to be pacifist, specifically the teachings about being sheep to the slaughter. (Psalm 44:22)

The same God who demands that we be courageous warriors now demands that we be meek and timid as sheep?

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.(Revelation 21:8)

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.(Ephesians 6:12)

I am taught to walk away from a fight, to defend the helpless(James 1:27, Isaiah 1:17, Proverbs 31:8-9, ) only with words and not actions, to bow my head and allow God to fight for me. I know that God can and will(when He sees fit) fight for us, but I am unable to believe that my God wants me to stand by as the helpless are harmed when it is in my power to do something about it.(James 2:14-26)

Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.(Psalm 82:3-4)
Thus says the Lord: Do justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor him who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the resident alien, the fatherless, and the widow, nor shed innocent blood in this place.(Jeremiah 22:3) How can this be achieved through mere words? What is needed is action!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The Lord is a man of war;(Exodus 15:3)

My God is a warrior, and warriors follow HIM. I came to this site because I struggle to reconcile certain concepts of the Gospel and epistles(as taught by many churches) with the rest of the Scripture. Many places in the NT show Jesus' return as a warrior and the divine judge, and I understand why He needed to surrender Himself unto death, but I struggle with many teachings which seem to be pacifist, specifically the teachings about being sheep to the slaughter. (Psalm 44:22)

The same God who demands that we be courageous warriors now demands that we be meek and timid as sheep?

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.(Revelation 21:8)

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.(Ephesians 6:12)

I am taught to walk away from a fight, to defend the helpless(James 1:27, Isaiah 1:17, Proverbs 31:8-9, ) only with words and not actions, to bow my head and allow God to fight for me. I know that God can and will(when He sees fit) fight for us, but I am unable to believe that my God wants me to stand by as the helpless are harmed when it is in my power to do something about it.(James 2:14-26)

Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.(Psalm 82:3-4)
Thus says the Lord: Do justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor him who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the resident alien, the fatherless, and the widow, nor shed innocent blood in this place.(Jeremiah 22:3) How can this be achieved through mere words? What is needed is action!

That's a very practical question, Jake, and I don't think it can be too easily answered. Jesus and His Apostles and earliest disciples obviously leaned upon the principle of non-violence as the appropriate way to respond to various evils in a less than socially amiable and sometimes dangerous world.

Without elaborating an overly long answer, I'm going to suggest that at least some of any Christian's responsibility is to seek peace first while at the same time looking for various opportunities to advocate for justice. For most of us, those opportunities will be in the form of proactively supporting laws that lend themselves to peaceful existence among neighbors. But where criminals and aggressors may attempt to indulge themselves, the "actions" that are to be taken against them will range from personal defense of family at home to becoming an authorized adminstrator of the local laws which Christians will support to serve and protect the community and/or society.

On a personal level Christians are all called to be peaceable with as many other people as possible, but on a more public level some Christians may be equipped with the personality and talents to join law enforcement or government defenses where full-fledged actions are utilized within the parameters of ethical goals to maintain order and occasionally deal out "wrath" upon law breakers. We can see this implied by Paul in Romans chapter 13, for starters.

So, as Christians, there are various levels of actions beyond mere words that we can personally subscribe to rather than being all too passive and merely doling out words. Some of the theological and philosophical deliberations involved in this type of analysis can be drawn from the issues involved in Christian engagement with "Just War Theory," some forms of social activism, and other various strands of Ethics.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The Lord is a man of war;(Exodus 15:3)

My God is a warrior, and warriors follow HIM. I came to this site because I struggle to reconcile certain concepts of the Gospel and epistles(as taught by many churches) with the rest of the Scripture. Many places in the NT show Jesus' return as a warrior and the divine judge, and I understand why He needed to surrender Himself unto death, but I struggle with many teachings which seem to be pacifist, specifically the teachings about being sheep to the slaughter. (Psalm 44:22)

The same God who demands that we be courageous warriors now demands that we be meek and timid as sheep?

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.(Revelation 21:8)

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.(Ephesians 6:12)

I am taught to walk away from a fight, to defend the helpless(James 1:27, Isaiah 1:17, Proverbs 31:8-9, ) only with words and not actions, to bow my head and allow God to fight for me. I know that God can and will(when He sees fit) fight for us, but I am unable to believe that my God wants me to stand by as the helpless are harmed when it is in my power to do something about it.(James 2:14-26)

Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.(Psalm 82:3-4)
Thus says the Lord: Do justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor him who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the resident alien, the fatherless, and the widow, nor shed innocent blood in this place.(Jeremiah 22:3) How can this be achieved through mere words? What is needed is action!

The concept of warfare is symbolic to the greatest war ever fought. That warfare is with ourselves and will never end in this life. The daily battles of the temptations of the flesh and selfishness, and sin are what we are at war with. I am a warrior, and we all should be but the war is not against others it is against ourselves. It is against our own sinful nature that wants to disobey God and not believe and follow His Word and live by the promises of God and resisting temptation to the very end. Without Jesus we can do nothing *Matthew 15:1-5 but now I can do all things trough Christ who strengthens me *Philippians 4:13

Ephesians 6:11-18
[11], Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
[12], For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
[13], Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
[14], Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
[15], And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
[16], Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
[17], And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
[18], Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints

God bless.

 

[Jake Arsenal]

That's a very practical question, Jake, and I don't think it can be too easily answered. Jesus and His Apostles and earliest disciples obviously leaned upon the principle of non-violence as the appropriate way to respond to various evils in a less than socially amiable and sometimes dangerous world.

Without elaborating an overly long answer, I'm going to suggest that at least some of any Christian's responsibility is to seek peace first while at the same time looking for various opportunities to advocate for justice. For most of us, those opportunities will be in the form of proactively supporting laws that lend themselves to peaceful existence among neighbors. But where criminals and aggressors may attempt to indulge themselves, the "actions" that are to be taken against them will range from personal defense of family at home to becoming an authorized adminstrator of the local laws which Christians will support to serve and protect the community and/or society.

On a personal level Christians are all called to be peaceable with as many other people as possible, but on a more public level some Christians may be equipped with the personality and talents to join law enforcement or government defenses where full-fledged actions are utilized within the parameters of ethical goals to maintain order and occasionally deal out "wrath" upon law breakers. We can see this implied by Paul in Romans chapter 13, for starters.

So, as Christians, there are various levels of actions beyond mere words that we can personally subscribe to rather than being all too passive and merely doling out words. Some of the theological and philosophical deliberations involved in this type of analysis can be drawn from the issues involved in Christian engagement with "Just War Theory," some forms of social activism, and other various strands of Ethics.

The concept of warfare is symbolic to the greatest war ever fought. That warfare is with ourselves and will never end in this life. The daily battles of the temptations of the flesh and selfishness, and sin are what we are at war with. I am a warrior, and we all should be but the war is not against others it is against ourselves. It is against our own sinful nature that wants to disobey God and not believe and follow His Word and live by the promises of God and resisting temptation to the very end. Without Jesus we can do nothing *Matthew 15:1-5 but now I can do all things trough Christ who strengthens me *Philippians 4:13

Ephesians 6:11-18
[11], Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
[12], For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
[13], Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
[14], Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
[15], And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
[16], Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
[17], And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
[18], Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints

God bless.

Right before He was betrayed, Jesus said the time for peace and God's provision was over, so sell your coat to buy a sword(Luke 22:35-38). The only record we have of a disciple using a sword was Peter at Jesus' betrayal, yet he was chastised for using it to try to stop Jesus' arrest.(John 18:10-11, Luke 22:49-51) Why should they sell their coat(which was a survival need because it doubled as a blanket) for a sword? Why did they need a sword? There is no scriptural reference to them ever using a sword again. What is going on with this?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Right before He was betrayed, Jesus said the time for peace and God's provision was over, so sell your coat to buy a sword(Luke 22:35-38). The only record we have of a disciple using a sword was Peter at Jesus' betrayal, yet he was chastised for using it to try to stop Jesus' arrest.(John 18:10-11, Luke 22:49-51) Why should they sell their coat(which was a survival need because it doubled as a blanket) for a sword? Why did they need a sword? There is no scriptural reference to them ever using a sword again. What is going on with this?

All of this can be addressed hermeneutically, but it'll be later before I can get to it. Talk to you then.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Right before He was betrayed, Jesus said the time for peace and God's provision was over, so sell your coat to buy a sword(Luke 22:35-38).

Jake, the first thing I do when reading any part of the Bible is attempt to consider the contexts that a verse or passage is situated in. As I do so, I also consider the meaning of the words I'm reading. Surprisingly, when I read what Luke has written in these three verses you've cited, I'm not quite getting that Jesus says anything about how "the time for peace and God's provision is over...."

I know that Luke reports that Jesus said He "came not to bring peace but division" in Luke 12:51, but I'm not really seeing Jesus saying anything to the effect that the time of peace is over or that people in general should buy swords. Maybe I'm missing something, so perhaps you can explain to me how you've reached this understanding of verse 35-38 in this way.

The only record we have of a disciple using a sword was Peter at Jesus' betrayal, yet he was chastised for using it to try to stop Jesus' arrest.(John 18:10-11, Luke 22:49-51) Why should they sell their coat(which was a survival need because it doubled as a blanket) for a sword? Why did they need a sword? There is no scriptural reference to them ever using a sword again. What is going on with this?

The way I read these verses is that Jesus is addressing His disciples and alluding to the fulfillment of a bit of scripture from Isaiah 53:12, insinuating that by asking them to acquire swords He would then be 'counted among the trangressors' (or law breakers). As we see in the narrative that Luke writes, one of the disciples ends up using a sword to cut the ear of the servant of the high priest (vs. 50). Jesus then heals that servant's ear, yet is still taken away as being among 'law breakers' and that Scripture is actually fulfilled.

What do you think all of this means, Jake? I think you're surely correct to note that nowhere in the New Testament or in the rest of what Luke himself has written is there any indication that any Christian of that time resorted to the use of weapons to further the Gospel. Surely Jesus isn't implying that He's authorizing us as Christians to be law breakers, right?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Right before He was betrayed, Jesus said the time for peace and God's provision was over, so sell your coat to buy a sword(Luke 22:35-38). The only record we have of a disciple using a sword was Peter at Jesus' betrayal, yet he was chastised for using it to try to stop Jesus' arrest.(John 18:10-11, Luke 22:49-51) Why should they sell their coat (which was a survival need because it doubled as a blanket) for a sword? Why did they need a sword? There is no scriptural reference to them ever using a sword again. What is going on with this?

Our warfare is not against flesh and blood *Ephesians 6:11-18 and the weapons we fight with are not the weapons of this world *2 Corinthians 10:4. Jesus in Luke 22:35-41 was telling of a time that would come after His death and resurrection where His followers would be persecuted and they would need to defend themselves hence the reference to going and buying a sword. However, as you pointed out Jesus rebuked Peter for using a sword which we are not to do. All the Apostles were persecuted and put to death and none of them used swords. The only one that did not die through persecution was John who was exiled to Patmos. There is no record in the scriptures of any of the Apostles or disciples bearing alms or weapons in self defense in the new testament outside of Peter in the gospels and Peter as you have already pointed out was rebuked for doing so. Jesus in Luke 22:35-41 therefore was simply telling of times after His death and resurrection of great persecution that would be coming to all of His followers where they would need a sword to defend themselves as would normally be the custom. He did not tell them to use a sword and none of them did.

God bless.

 

[Jake Arsenal]

That's a very practical question, Jake, and I don't think it can be too easily answered.

@2PhiloVoid thank you for respectfully discussing this with me, and for understanding the importance of this struggle. I am often frustrated in my attempts to discuss this with other Christians because I am always sure to include Ephesians 6:12(and similar verses) as a main source of the misunderstanding, yet many try to answer the question by quoting that very verse(and other similar verses) as though it solves the problem. This is a terribly practical question, because the answer determines the course of righteous action(demonstrating our faith through works) for all Christians.

Jake, the first thing I do when reading any part of the Bible is attempt to consider the contexts that a verse or passage is situated in. As I do so, I also consider the meaning of the words I'm reading. Surprisingly, when I read what Luke has written in these three verses you've cited, I'm not quite getting that Jesus says anything about how "the time for peace and God's provision is over...."

I know that Luke reports that Jesus said He "came not to bring peace but division" in Luke 12:51, but I'm not really seeing Jesus saying anything to the effect that the time of peace is over or that people in general should buy swords. Maybe I'm missing something, so perhaps you can explain to me how you've reached this understanding of verse 35-38 in this way.

The way I read these verses is that Jesus is addressing His disciples and alluding to the fulfillment of a bit of scripture from Isaiah 53:12, insinuating that by asking them to acquire swords He would then be 'counted among the trangressors' (or law breakers). As we see in the narrative that Luke writes, one of the disciples ends up using a sword to cut the ear of the servant of the high priest (vs. 50). Jesus then heals that servant's ear, yet is still taken away as being among 'law breakers' and that Scripture is actually fulfilled.

Your interpretation here has a problem, Jesus never broke the law because He was the innocent spotless lamb sacrificed in the place of those(everyone else) who broke the law.(1 Peter 1:19)

What do you think all of this means, Jake? I think you're surely correct to note that nowhere in the New Testament or in the rest of what Luke himself has written is there any indication that any Christian of that time resorted to the use of weapons to further the Gospel. Surely Jesus isn't implying that He's authorizing us as Christians to be law breakers, right?

Jesus does not authorize us to be law breakers beyond preaching the Gospel in places where it is illegal and following God's commands even when illegal as demonstrated by the apostles.(Acts of the Apostles 4:18-20)

I am not suggesting that followers of Christ should become vigilantes, I am saying that faith without works is dead.(James 2:26) I am sure the priest and Levite in the story of the good Samaritan justified themselves by wishing someone would help the injured man, but they performed no action to help him, and Jesus said they pretended not to see him.

For many centuries, Christians had a different understanding than we do now. They understood David's justice in 1 Kings 5:6, yet I have struggled with this my whole life, assuming that David was betraying his loyal follower. I saw Joab's violent actions as reasonable under the circumstances, but David explained to Solomon that Joab failed to separate war from peace.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

@2PhiloVoid thank you for respectfully discussing this with me, and for understanding the importance of this struggle. I am often frustrated in my attempts to discuss this with other Christians because I am always sure to include Ephesians 6:12(and similar verses) as a main source of the misunderstanding, yet many try to answer the question by quoting that very verse(and other similar verses) as though it solves the problem. This is a terribly practical question, because the answer determines the course of righteous action(demonstrating our faith through works) for all Christians.

Right. Just as long as we all understand that outside of government employments as legal enforcers, we as Christians do not -- as Paul said -- resort to carnal weapons, that implements of violence.

So, if a Christian feels led to assiting in the actual enforcement of the law upon evil doers, he or she will need to be hired as a government employee.

Your interpretation here has a problem, Jesus never broke the law because He was the innocent spotless lamb sacrificed in the place of those(everyone else) who broke the law.(1 Peter 1:19)

Unfortunately, I think you'd misunderstood the implication of my interpretation. I didn't say Jesus was a lawbreaker. Rather, what I said was that Jesus had the prophecy fulfilled and what thus "counted" as being among lawbreakers, even though He was still innocent of sin and violence. Jesus, as we both know, was also hung on the cross among two criminals. Thus, between the disciples foolish resort to the sword in the Garden and the cruxifiction among criminals, Jesus, though innocent, was "esteemed not."

See what I'm getting at? If not, then I'm all up for you and I sitting down together and reading any one of dozens of books on biblical exegesis that I have if you haven't already had the opportunity to learn in this way.

Jesus does not authorize us to be law breakers beyond preaching the Gospel in places where it is illegal and following God's commands even when illegal as demonstrated by the apostles.(Acts of the Apostles 4:18-20)

I am not suggesting that followers of Christ should become vigilantes, I am saying that faith without works is dead.(James 2:26) I am sure the priest and Levite in the story of the good Samaritan justified themselves by wishing someone would help the injured man, but they performed no action to help him, and Jesus said they pretended not to see him.

For many centuries, Christians had a different understanding than we do now. They understood David's justice in 1 Kings 5:6, yet I have struggled with this my whole life, assuming that David was betraying his loyal follower. I saw Joab's violent actions as reasonable under the circumstances, but David explained to Solomon that Joab failed to separate war from peace.

Mmmm. I understand what you're saying, and I'm glad we can both agree that followers of Christ should not become vigilantes. Surely what we don't want to do is leave any option open whatsoever for a person who is a Christian to think he or she is permitted to join some kind of violent, un-Christian group such as the Proud Boys or any other such similar group.

 

[Jake Arsenal]

duplicate

 

[Jake Arsenal]

Right. Just as long as we all understand that outside of government employments as legal enforcers, we as Christians do not -- as Paul said -- resort to carnal weapons, that implements of violence.

So, if a Christian feels led to assiting in the actual enforcement of the law upon evil doers, he or she will need to be hired as a government employee.

As it applies to the individual, I am in agreement with the following statement:

we as Christians do not -- as Paul said -- resort to carnal weapons, that implements of violence.

I have problems with(but don't necessarily disagree with) the following:

outside of government employments as legal enforcers,

I agree only in regards to a Christian government(which I define as a government run by either Christian rulers[in most cases, the modern church doctrine, which we are discussing, defines "Christian ruler" as an oxymoron by it's own logic.], or representing a predominantly Christian group of people).

Unfortunately, I think you'd misunderstood the implication of my interpretation. I didn't say Jesus was a lawbreaker. Rather, what I said was that Jesus had the prophecy fulfilled and what thus "counted" as being among lawbreakers, even though He was still innocent of sin and violence. Jesus, as we both know, was also hung on the cross among two criminals. Thus, between the disciples foolish resort to the sword in the Garden and the cruxifiction among criminals, Jesus, though innocent, was "esteemed not."

See what I'm getting at? If not, then I'm all up for you and I sitting down together and reading any one of dozens of books on biblical exegesis that I have if you haven't already had the opportunity to learn in this way.

I misunderstood your statement, thinking you were saying that Jesus broke the law in order to be counted as a lawbreaker.

We are in agreement that Jesus was "counted"/"esteemed" as a lawbreaker, having never broken the law.

Mmmm. I understand what you're saying, and I'm glad we can both agree that followers of Christ should not become vigilantes. Surely what we don't want to do is leave any option open whatsoever for a person who is a Christian to think he or she is permitted to join some kind of violent, un-Christian group such as the Proud Boys or any other such similar group.

I mostly agree with you, especially regarding your example, because Christians must avoid membership or participation in any organization that in its objectives, ceremonies, or practices is inimical to the Gospel of Jesus Christ or the faith and life of the Christian church. My disagreement is actually in regards to your earlier statements involving Christians in law enforcement and government due to their oath of office.

I beg your pardon for the lack of a full and well thought out argument for a particular point of view, but I am disagreeing with certain points in doctrine which I believe are at odds with God and Scripture in certain cases. Romans 13 has been repeatedly abused to cause complacency in the Church, while, at the same time, the idea of "consent of the governed" could be construed as a misunderstanding of God's authority in human events.

Throughout history, there were many events in which Christians were forced to choose between obeying the governing authorities and obeying God(such as helping Jewish people escape the Nazis, helping slaves on the underground railroad, etc.), but there were many more Christians who chose not to act in defense of the helpless. I have not suggested violence, rather, I have suggested action to whatever level is within each person's ability.(Hebrews 10:23-25)

If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?(James 2:15-16)

Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.(Psalm 82:3-4)

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.(Ephesians 2:10)
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.(Matthew 5:16)