Striking Out Paul

[Fire]

The line of Abraham was: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph.

For his [Jacob´s] sons carried him into the land of Canaan, and buried him in the cave of the field of Machpelah, which Abraham bought with the field for a possession of a buryingplace of Ephron the Hittite, before Mamre. [Genesis 50:13]

And the bones of Joseph, which the children of Israel brought up out of Egypt, buried they in Shechem, in a parcel of ground which Jacob bought of the sons of Hamor the father of Shechem for an hundred pieces of silver: and it became the inheritance of the children of Joseph. [Joshua 24:32]

So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers, And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor [the father] of Sychem. [Acts 7:15-16]

Jacob was buried in the cave of the field of Macpelah that was purchased by Abraham.

The bones of Joseph were buried in a parcel of ground in Shechem that was purchased by Jacob.

The account in Acts is a false composite of the accounts of the burial of Jacob and the burial of Joseph.

 

[Chrysostomon]

The line of Abraham was: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph.

For his [Jacob´s] sons carried him into the land of Canaan, and buried him in the cave of the field of Machpelah, which Abraham bought with the field for a possession of a buryingplace of Ephron the Hittite, before Mamre. [Genesis 50:13]

And the bones of Joseph, which the children of Israel brought up out of Egypt, buried they in Shechem, in a parcel of ground which Jacob bought of the sons of Hamor the father of Shechem for an hundred pieces of silver: and it became the inheritance of the children of Joseph. [Joshua 24:32]

So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers, And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor [the father] of Sychem. [Acts 7:15-16]

Jacob was buried in the cave of the field of Macpelah that was purchased by Abraham.

The bones of Joseph were buried in a parcel of ground in Shechem that was purchased by Jacob.

The account in Acts is a false composite of the accounts of the burial of Jacob and the burial of Joseph.

Did Paul write Acts?
Did Paul make this speech?

That's not even getting into the allegation you've made about it's truth or not.

 

[Fire]

We have been referring thus far to “the author” of Acts. Our reason is that the work circulated anonymously. The same is true of the companion work, the Gospel of Luke, which eventually came to circulate with a traditional title. Though Acts is traditionally attributed to Luke the beloved physician and companion of Paul, in recent years the book has been increasingly regarded as composed by an unknown author. It is likely that the author lived in the generation after Paul. We can assume that he did his best with the sources available to him, at a distance of two to three decades from the death of Paul (A.D. 64?) and from the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

It is ironic that the more one insists upon the author’s being a contemporary and companion of the apostle, the more difficult it is to believe in the author’s due diligence and good faith. If he is allowed to be a late first century author, his lack of information or his misinformation is understandable, and his good efforts are laudable.

http://www.paulonpaul.org/workshop/acts_source_1.htm


Chrysostomon,
[font=Times New Roman, Times]Your criticism concerning the authorship of Acts is valid. While I still believe that Paul was the author of Acts and Hebrews, I do not have proof at this time.

[/font]

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

I can agree with the idea that Luke was written by a disciple of Luke about 90 C.E. or even later.

That disciple was a charter member of Paulianity and, of course, promoted Paul shamelessly.

I also agree that this (and the fact that he was a Gentile) explains the errors noted in the post above and the strange account of the death of Judas.

It also explains why Paul, who wrote at least three decades earlier, didn't seem to know anything about the virgin birth, while the author of Luke makes it a huge part of his Gospel.

Clearly, the virgin birth myth evolved in the decades between Paul and the writing of the Gospel of Luke--probably evolving among the Gentiles due to the fact that Gentiles were accustomed to important people being born of virgins while the Jews were not.

The Gospel of Matthew, written about the same time, is the only other work to mention the virgin birth, and may have been an intentional Jewish effort to help Jews accept the Pagan virgin birth aspects of the evolving story of Jesus.

That would explain Matthew's struggle to make the case that Isaiah referred to a virgin birth even though the Isaiah reference does not use the Hebrew word for virgin.

A probable part of the reason for the writing of the Gospel of Matthew was the need to show the Jewish Christians that Luke was correct and thus reconcile the Jewish Christians (who had no interest in virgin birth) and the Gentile Christians ( who had a need for a virgin birth to place Christ at a status level with the popular Pagan dieties).

So the theory that Luke's Gospel was written much later by a disciple of Luke is likely correct and has much merit.



P.S. Paul certainly would have run with that virgin birth story if he had thought of it, because it was a natural for his ministry to the Gentiles.

 

[elman]

Why worry? If you are a follower of Paul you can sin every morning before you get out of bed anyhow......what's the additional sin of a little carefully engineered boasting gonna hurt?

If you had read Paul you would know he delt with that problem and said to it: "God forbid!"

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

If you had read Paul you would know he delt with that problem and said to it: "God forbid!"

Well, El.......shockingly enough, I HAVE read Paul all my life and what you say is no surprise to me.

My whole point is that he wrote so poorly and contradicted himself so much that it really doesn't matter that he said "God forbid."

His followers are very much into cheap sin and cheap, easy grace and that is no surprise either.......it's a natural result of his confused ideas and methods.

 

[foursquareman]

I always was taught that grace was both the cleansing of our sins, plus the power to overcome temptation once it was given. And I'm what you call a "Paulinian" !!!

 

[tulc]

His followers are very much into cheap sin and cheap, easy grace and that is no surprise either.......it's a natural result of his confused ideas and methods.

Still haven't got that smaller paint brush huh? At some point you should stop as you are typing and think: "Gosh, is there some way I can say this without condeming every single person who doesn't think like I do?" Just a suggestion.
tulc(already seeing where this is going to go, hoping I'm wrong!)

 

[foursquareman]

I always was taught that grace was both the cleansing of our sins, plus the power to overcome temptation once it was given. And I'm what you call a "Paulinian" !!!

Sorry, just wanted to add that to deny either aspect weakens grace.

 

[CaDan]

The Three Graces of Greek mythology:

Aglaia - Splendor
Efrosyni - Calmness
Thalia - Blossoming

I like the Graces (or Charites)

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

That would explain Matthew's struggle to make the case that Isaiah referred to a virgin birth even though the Isaiah reference does not use the Hebrew word for virgin.

OTOH the [size=-1] Septuagint uses the same word in Isaiah 7:14 as does Matthew 1:23.
[/size]

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

If you know that much, you must know that the Septuagint is a translation from the original Hebrew to the Greek.....and the original Hebrew said, "young woman," not virgin.

That's the whole point, isn't it?

 

[AngelusSax]

A young woman will give birth....

Well there's a sign if I ever saw one, as that never happens! Ever!

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

You must have forgotten that Jesus said there would BE NO signs.

 

[ChiRho]

Well, El.......shockingly enough, I HAVE read Paul all my life and what you say is no surprise to me.

My whole point is that he wrote so poorly and contradicted himself so much that it really doesn't matter that he said "God forbid."

His followers are very much into cheap sin and cheap, easy grace and that is no surprise either.......it's a natural result of his confused ideas and methods.

Cheap Grace? It seems to be a pretty difficult concept for you to grasp...

How does man who is not sinless and is not free from the inclination to sin, remedy himself before God?

If you say repentance and forgiveness...then how are you ever sure that you have repented purely or enough to deserve grace?


Pax Christi,

ChiRho

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

If you say repentance and forgiveness...then how are you ever sure that you have repented purely or enough to deserve grace?

I never worry about it. God can take care of the details, all I have to do is try my best to live a life of compassion, justice and mercy.

I don't have to "deserve" grace. It's available to those who seek it......it is God's gracious love and God loves nothing better than to give it.

 

[elman]

Cheap Grace? It seems to be a pretty difficult concept for you to grasp...

How does man who is not sinless and is not free from the inclination to sin, remedy himself before God?

If you say repentance and forgiveness...then how are you ever sure that you have repented purely or enough to deserve grace?


Pax Christi,

ChiRho

You can't deserve grace. Grace is for when you don't deserve it.

 

[Misty Minister]

Ok, a Messianic.
The theology of death, that is, that "grace" covers our sin if we are "born again" is simply hogwash.

I like your ideas. How do they square with the NC? You can answer PM if you like. Apollos the great greek teacher?

 

[Misty Minister]

Is Zontar your avatar?

 

[Misty Minister]

re: Hold it right there
6th January 2005, 11:14 PM
Pauls problem was that he was trained as a pharisee, and so Paul set an absolute standard regarding sin. As you probably know that was a popular thought in Judaism in those days.

Gd did not set an absolute standard. And Gd Himself says, repeatedly, that He forgives the sin of a repentent person.