Striking Out Paul

[cweb255]

Can Paul and Christ be taken apart? Christ of course is fundamental to Christianity, but Paul wrote the bulk of the epistles. The epistles contain huge amounts of the moral teachings and theology of Christianity. Due in part to the fact that the Gospels, while containing some moral teachings, spend a massive amount of time on the story of Christ and the establishment of Christ's legitimacy as the messiah. If we were to remove Paul's writings what would we have left?

Christ's words. There are also more teachings of Christ than just Matt Mark Luke and John.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we should totally eliminate Paul, but just put him in context, like the Jewish kosher laws or the Talmud to the Torah.

 

[artybloke]

You don't associate with anti-christians and atheists, do you?

All the time, mate. I'm a poet and I spend more time with non-christian writers than christian ones - but I suspect that most people I meet wouldn't know the difference between Paul and Jesus anyway.

 

[cweb255]

All the time, mate. I'm a poet and I spend more time with non-christian writers than christian ones - but I suspect that most people I meet wouldn't know the difference between Paul and Jesus anyway.

You're hanging out with the wrong atheists then, mate.

 

[Beoga]

Well, I don't have a bible with me currently, but the next time I do, I'll show you some evidence. I'll be back tomorrow. ( - I actually appreciate sarcasm.)



alright, then i will remember to be more sarcastic toward you in the future

 

[St. Andrei]

Can Paul and Christ be taken apart? Christ of course is fundamental to Christianity, but Paul wrote the bulk of the epistles. The epistles contain huge amounts of the moral teachings and theology of Christianity. Due in part to the fact that the Gospels, while containing some moral teachings, spend a massive amount of time on the story of Christ and the establishment of Christ's legitimacy as the messiah. If we were to remove Paul's writings what would we have left?

An incomplete Cannon.

 

[St. Andrei]

What does Paul really do for individual Christians? I mean, I can see his purpose in the early church, but his obvious lack of information on Jesus discredits our entire religion. People ask "Are you Christian, or are you Paulian?" I firmly stand by the words of the Jesus, not the words of some man who dreamt he met the saviour.

"What I mean is that each one of you says, 'I follow Paul,' or 'I follow Apollos,' or 'I follow Cephas,' or "I follow Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" ~ Paul (1 Cor. 1:12-13).

 

[CaDan]

An incomplete Cannon.

That might not be so bad. It's hard to shoot people with an incomplete cannon.

But seriously, Paul is full of good stuff. Too bad people don't read his works.

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

because if paul faked the vision on the road it changes everything.

So he just turned around 180 degrees from being an up and comer among the pharasees, persecuting the followers of Jesus, to join that fringe group because ...?

We also have the belief that the Holy Spirit exercised some oversight in the composition of the Holy Scriptures.

 

[cweb255]

So he just turned around 180 degrees from being an up and comer among the pharasees, persecuting the followers of Jesus, to join that fringe group because ...?

We also have the belief that the Holy Spirit exercised some oversight in the composition of the Holy Scriptures.

Not everyone holds this belief.

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

you don't hang out with anti-christians and atheists, do you?

All the time, mate. I'm a poet and I spend more time with non-christian writers than christian ones - but I suspect that most people I meet wouldn't know the difference between Paul and Jesus anyway.

Ah, but there is a difference between Atheists, non-Christians and anti-Christians.

 

[cweb255]

I think this sums it up nicely...

http://www.voiceofjesus.org/paulvsjesus.html

 

[St. Andrei]

I think this sums it up nicely...

http://www.voiceofjesus.org/paulvsjesus.html

This list reveals a poor understanding of Scripture. An example:

1. On the time of the coming of the Lord:

Paul says:
Rom.13
[12] the night is far gone, the day is at hand.

Jesus says:
Luke.21
[8] Take heed that you are not led astray; for many will come in my name,
saying, . . . `The time is at hand!' Do not go after them.
................
Paul was discussing the difference between being regenerate and unregenerate as night and day.

Jesus was discussing false prophets and people posing as Him. If those fakes say that 'The time is at hand', then they are wrong.

 

[McCravey]

The other day i was on a deserted road and jesus came down and talked to me and told me that he really didnt mean hell was a burning pit that unbelievers go forever. I am to go on cf and spread the word.
Do you believe me or would you like a little proof.

Maybe, after you are a well know evangelist going into hostile territories carrying the good news... maybe after you were stoned twice....beaten and left for dead...or boiled alive in oil and survived...or bitten by a poisonous viper....or.....

 

[McCravey]

That might not be so bad. It's hard to shoot people with an incomplete cannon.
.

Hee Hee....Good shot CaDan. (can't rep you anymore)

 

[The Son's Anvil]

Lately, I've been asking myself many of these same questions.

Whereas before I would have accepted this as 'gospel', hehe, I do not necessarily believe that Paul was correct in everything.

Paul, though led by the spirit as all Christians are who are dedicated to Christ, is a flawed, error prone human being. He had temptations just as I do. He had needs just as I do (though not so many maybe). He sinned...just as I do (not so often maybe )

Christ had temptations, but he did not sin. This is a given.

When you step back and look hard at what this is all about, you must concede that Paul was human, and therefore made mistakes. This is why I do not support a specific religious doctrine. Doctrine is made by these same people, flawed, sinful human beings. They are wrong, in at least ONE case, in each religion. Certainly, I don't want to be led astray by the many traditions that have nothing at all to do with my salvation, and my personal relationship with the Almighty.

These struggles in MY life lead me to avoid religious institutions entirely. There is praise and prayer in the spirit, but there is no tradition, and I am content with that for now.

This isn't to say that those who choose to praise the Lord by adhering to Paul's teachings are WRONG. They allow themselves to be led to the Lord through these people, and their devotion is without question.

If Paul was wrong, this doesn't necessarily make THEM wrong, UNLESS they are teaching Paulian doctrine. Get it right, the TEACHER was CHRIST, not Paul. If you want the Truth, see Jesus. If there is a potential contradiction, see Jesus. Not Paul.

If a doctrine is not confirmed by the actual Word of God, or that spoken by Christ, then the doctrine is false, and we are being led astray.

This is my view.

And just because it sounds good doesn't necessarily make it a truth, or The Truth.

 

[cweb255]

This list reveals a poor understanding of Scripture. An example:

1. On the time of the coming of the Lord:

Paul says:
Rom.13
[12] the night is far gone, the day is at hand.

Jesus says:
Luke.21
[8] Take heed that you are not led astray; for many will come in my name,
saying, . . . `The time is at hand!' Do not go after them.
................
Paul was discussing the difference between being regenerate and unregenerate as night and day.

Jesus was discussing false prophets and people posing as Him. If those fakes say that 'The time is at hand', then they are wrong.

I'll give you that this particular instance they're wrong, but you can't attack one piece and expect the rest to fall so easily.

 

[tulc]

You're hanging out with the wrong atheists then, mate.

Well.... Maybe all the right atheists were busy somewhere else? You know sometimes they all hang out at the Atheist coffeehouse/bar and lose all track of time. Have you thought about putting an ad in the paper? Maybe under "help wanted"? Something like this: "wanted: cool atheists to hang-out with poet/Christian artist, smoking ok, no druggies or Republicans please. contact artybloke@ CF" something like that.
tulc( I couldn't stop my fingers from typing)

 

[Beoga]

I'll give you that this particular instance they're wrong, but you can't attack one piece and expect the rest to fall so easily.

why did you post the "one" piece where they are wrong?

 

[cweb255]

why did you post the "one" piece where they are wrong?

? Explain yourself?

 

[St. Andrei]

I'll give you that this particular instance they're wrong, but you can't attack one piece and expect the rest to fall so easily.

Okay, I will choose one random number in that list of "contradictions" and disprove it as well. If you are not satisfied after this next one, you can choose one for me. I just don't want to waste my time on this list--it was made by somebody who doesn't understand Christian doctrine.

Here goes disproof number two:

7. On being justified:

Paul says:
Rom.3
[24] they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,
[28] For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.

Rom.5
[9] Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Jesus says:
Matt.12
[37] for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.
-----------------

If the author posted this phrase by Christ, along with the one in Matt.12:37, then you can see that Christ contradicted himself too! For Christ also said:

Mark 2:5

When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."

Now we know that Christ did not contradict Himself at all, but it is we who don't understand the doctrine of Justification correctly.

God graciously gives us faith to believe. Our faith justifies us because God had grace upon us. You (or Christ, as the case may be) can assess whether a person has been justified by God by the way he/she speaks: you can tell by their fruit (is a common example). James 2 talks about how true faith produces good works. This is what Christ meant. It is a chain of events.

You can see this chain of events best in Ephesians 2:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

One can say that we are saved by God's grace; One can say that we are saved by faith; one can say that we are saved by our works. It is not that one thing apart from the others did it alone, but all these components are essential to salvation: justification is one part of the salvation "process".